CONTINUED FROM PART 1

Page 310
1 Q. Okay. Mr. Hobbs, Paragraph 26 -- and it may
2 be that we’ve gone -- I just want -- you’ve made
3 several different claims, and I’m just making
4 sure I get all the facts because I’m here today.
5 You say in here, the defendants had knowledge
6 or should have known that the matters -- that the
7 published matters were false. Have you told me
8 -- I know we talked about that earlier a little
9 bit. Have you told me all of the facts that you
10 have that support the allegation that defendants
11 knew that what they were saying was false?
12 MR. THOMAS: Object as to form.
13 A. Well, the police told them. The police told
14 them that Mr. Hobbs hadn’t done anything wrong.
15 Q. When did the police talk to Ms. Pasdar or the
16 Dixie Chicks?
17 A. They put it out there in the same newspaper
18 they should have read.
19 Q. So they didn’t talk to them. It’s just part
20 of what’s out there in the public domain that you
21 believe they should have looked at?
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. Is that what you’re saying?
24 A. Yes. Why not?
25 Q. Not, yeah, why not. I’m trying to figure out

Page 311
1 what you’re -- what you’re alleging in this
2 lawsuit?
3 A. It’s right there.
4 Q. Okay. Do you have any reason to believe that
5 Ms. Pasdar or the Dixie Chicks knew that?
6 A. That’s up to them to look at it.
7 Q. You just think they should have looked at
8 everything, and based upon all of that, they
9 should have not made the statements because of
10 what the police were saying so far?
11 A. Well, I believe the police, and they could
12 have believed the police and avoided all this.
13 Q. Do you know if the police still have an open
14 file?
15 A. I don’t know. You will have to call them.
16 Q. Have you been to the police department and
17 asked for the file?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Would it surprise you to know that there’s
20 still an open file?
21 A. It wouldn’t surprise me.
22 Q. Would it surprise you to know that there’s a
23 file on one Terry Hobbs?
24 A. That wouldn’t surprise me either.
25 Q. And when was the last time you were

Page 312
1 interviewed by the police?
2 A. A year or so ago.
3 Q. June of ’07?
4 A. Could have been.
5 Q. Had any communications with them since?
6 A. I’m not sure if that was my last time, I’m
7 not sure.
8 Q. Well, how many times have you talked to the
9 police?
10 A. Probably twice in the past couple of years.
11 Q. Okay. When do you recall the first time you
12 spoke to the police in the last couple of years?
13 A. They called me wanting me to come over and
14 interview -- or look at my pocketknives.
15 Q. Okay. Are those the same pocketknives that
16 are referenced -- to your understanding, are
17 those the same pocketknives that are referenced
18 in the filings, in the habeas filings that are --
19 A. Probably.
20 Q. Is it Stevie’s pocketknife? We’re talking
21 about Stevie’s pocketknife?
22 A. No. We’re talking about mine.
23 Q. So --
24 A. Not Stevie’s.
25 Q. We’re talking about different pocketknives?

Page 313
1 A. Right.
2 Q. Okay. And do you recall when that was?
3 A. No.
4 Q. No. Was it after the convictions?
5 A. It was in the past couple of years, since
6 ’07.
7 Q. Do you have an understanding, Mr. Hobbs,
8 about why, if the police are so certain that they
9 got the three right boys behind bars, that they
10 wanted to talk to you about your pocketknives?
11 A. You have to ask them why.
12 Q. Well, did you ask them why? Say why are you
13 talking to me. You’ve got the three guys behind
14 bars. One of them is on death row?
15 A. I wanted my knives back, and I still do.
16 Q. Okay. They haven’t given you the knives
17 back, have they?
18 A. They don’t have them.
19 Q. They don’t have them?
20 A. It’s my understanding they’re in the -- some
21 attorney’s possession.
22 Q. Isn’t is reason -- isn’t the reason they
23 can’t give them to you is because the file is
24 still open?
25 A. Oh, I don’t know.

Page 314
1 MR. THOMAS: Object as to form, lack
2 of foundation.
3 A. I don’t know.
4 Q. Did you ask him why -- what type of questions
5 did they ask you about the pocketknives?
6 A. If I could identify my pocketknives.
7 Q. And could you?
8 A. I did.
9 Q. Did you ask why they wanted to know if you
10 could identify your pocketknives?
11 A. I may have at the time. I don’t remember.
12 Q. Do you recall what they said?
13 A. No, sir.
14 Q. Do you recall who at the police department
15 you talked to a couple of years ago about your
16 pocketknives?
17 A. Mitchell, Detective Mitchell or Chief
18 Mitchell.
19 Q. Okay. Any other discussions with the police
20 about your pocketknives?
21 A. No.
22 Q. Okay. And then you had another discussion
23 with the police?
24 A. And fingerprints.
25 Q. Was that the same time or another time?

Page 315
1 A. Another time.
2 Q. Okay. And do you recall when you were asked
3 to come down and give fingerprints?
4 A. Not exactly.
5 Q. Do you know about how long ago, Mr. Hobbs?
6 A. Within the past two years.
7 Q. And who asked you to come down and get
8 fingerprints?
9 A. I think Mr. Knowles called me, Detective
10 Knowles.
11 Q. Did you ask why he wanted you to come down
12 and give fingerprints if they had the three right
13 boys behind bars already?
14 MR. THOMAS: Object as to form, lack
15 of foundation.
16 Q. Did he tell you why he wanted you to come
17 down and give fingerprints?
18 A. Well, I think it’s because we didn’t give any
19 back in ’93.
20 Q. So you didn’t give any in ’93, but they
21 wanted you to come down in ’06, ’07?
22 A. To satisfy the defense.
23 Q. Okay. Did you give fingerprints?
24 A. Sure.
25 Q. Did you give your DNA sample?

Page 316
1 A. Sure.
2 Q. You gave a DNA sample to the police?
3 A. I guess. They got fingerprint, feet prints.
4 Q. They get fingerprint and feet print. My
5 question is, did you give the police the DNA?
6 A. Seemed like we did in ’93.
7 Q. You gave the police the DNA in ’93?
8 A. I was thinking we might have.
9 Q. Okay. You weren’t interviewed in ’93 by the
10 police, were you?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Were you?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Who interviewed you in ’93?
15 A. Different ones.
16 Q. How many times?
17 A. I’m not sure. Yeah, we was asked questions,
18 too.
19 Q. About what? What type of questions did they
20 ask you in ’93?
21 A. The same as they asked everybody else. I
22 don’t remember.
23 Q. Okay. So you came down -- in the last couple
24 of years, you’ve gone down and you’ve talked to
25 the police about the pocketknives, and you want

Page 317
1 those back but they won’t give them to you. And
2 you gave fingerprint and footprint evidence --
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. -- prints?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. Did you give new DNA samples then?
7 A. I don’t think so.
8 Q. You don’t think so?
9 A. Finger and feet.
10 Q. Finger and feet. Okay. Did they take a bite
11 imprint, teeth imprint?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Now, you had -- as I understand it, you had
14 your teeth pulled, right?
15 A. I have.
16 Q. When did you have your teeth pulled?
17 A. Sometimes in the nineties.
18 Q. And do you mind me asking why, sir?
19 A. Because I needed them pulled. I had some bad
20 disease.
21 Q. What disease did you have?
22 A. I’m not sure.
23 Q. How many teeth did you have pulled?
24 A. A lot.
25 Q. Do you have a number?

Page 318
1 A. No.
2 Q. Approximately?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Uppers, lowers?
5 A. Both.
6 Q. Both. Who did it?
7 A. My dentist.
8 Q. And who was your dentist?
9 A. Mr. -- Dr. P-----, I believe.
10 Q. And where is Dr. P----- located?
11 A. Blytheville, Arkansas.
12 Q. Do you know if he’s still practicing?
13 A. I don’t know that.
14 Q. To your knowledge, prior to the time that the
15 -- your teeth were pulled, did anyone compare the
16 imprints of your original teeth to any of the
17 bite marks on the victims?
18 MR. THOMAS: Object as to the form,
19 lack of foundation. The Echols people say there
20 are no bite marks on the victims.
21 Q. Are you aware, are there bite marks on the
22 victims?
23 A. They said in the trials there were not.
24 Q. Okay. So when was the next time? So you
25 have the knives, fingerprint, footprint, no DNA,

Page 319
1 no teeth. When is the next time you talked to
2 the police within the last couple of years?
3 A. I haven’t.
4 Q. When you had the -- in June of ’07, that was
5 a separate one, right, about the DNA, and they
6 asked you to come down?
7 A. And do hand, finger.
8 Q. Oh, that was all that one?
9 A. That’s when I done the fingerprint thing.
10 Q. Okay. All right. Any other communications
11 that you can recall, Mr. Hobbs, with any law
12 enforcement agencies about the West Memphis Three
13 murders?
14 A. No.
15 Q. No. Okay. And again, I’m just trying to tie
16 some loose ends up here. Paragraph 26 of the
17 complaint, the defendants all acted recklessly
18 and with reckless disregard as to the falsity of
19 the matter that they were publishing --
20 publicizing. Have you told me all the facts that
21 you know that support that allegation, sir?
22 A. I feel like it.
23 Q. Okay. Paragraph 27 talks about some of your
24 injuries or your damages as a result of that. We
25 talked about mental and emotional distress. Have

Page 320
1 you told me -- is that the same mental and
2 emotional distress that we talked about earlier?
3 A. It just went on and on, yes, it is.
4 Q. Any -- but no -- but no new injuries or
5 damages?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Okay. You said here, and other special
8 damages which he is entitled to recover. What
9 other special damages are you seeking?
10 MR. THOMAS: Object to the form.
11 Requires a legal conclusion.
12 Q. I’m trying to figure out what you’re suing me
13 for. What other special damages do you seek to
14 recover from the defendants as a result of false
15 libelization as alleged in Paragraph 27?
16 MR. THOMAS: Same objection.
17 Q. You told me -- have you told me all the
18 damages, sir?
19 A. I don’t know. I’ve told you a lot.
20 Q. Can you think of any other damages or special
21 damages that you’re seeking to recover, sir?
22 A. Yeah. I’d like to get a public apology.
23 Q. What -- what do you want them to apologize
24 for?
25 A. Sticking their nose in my business.

Page 321
1 Q. Not staying in Texas?
2 A. Well, that’s a pretty good one.
3 Q. Pretty good one. Everybody from Texas should
4 stay down there, shouldn’t they? All right. So
5 you want a public apology -- but that’s not
6 damages. What special damages -- what other
7 special damages, if any, do you want?
8 MR. THOMAS: Object as to form.
9 Requires a legal conclusion.
10 Q. What other special damages, other than that
11 what you’ve told me, do you think you have
12 suffered as a result of the conduct that forms
13 the basis of your complaint?
14 MR. THOMAS: Same objection.
15 Q. You can answer the question, Mr. Hobbs.
16 A. I don’t have an answer.
17 Q. You’ve told me about all your injuries,
18 right?
19 A. Uh-huh. Yeah.
20 Q. Okay. Mr. Hobbs, you know one of the things
21 that we talked about was your reputation, and one
22 of the things that we didn’t -- as part of that
23 -- are you currently on probation for shooting
24 your brother-in-law?
25 A. No.

Page 322
1 Q. You’re not on probation?
2 A. No, sir.
3 Q. No. Who’s Mildred French?
4 A. I don’t know.
5 Q. You don’t know a Mildred French?
6 A. No.
7 Q. I’m sorry?
8 A. No.
9 Q. No. Isn’t it true that you were arrested for
10 grabbing her breasts as she got out of the
11 shower? It was a sexual assault?
12 A. Yeah.
13 Q. Do you realize your under oath?
14 A. I realize that.
15 Q. You didn’t have to go to counseling for it?
16 A. We went to counseling over something, but it
17 wasn’t what you just said.
18 Q. What did you go to counseling over?
19 A. I don’t remember.
20 Q. When did you go to counseling?
21 A. I don’t -- 30 years ago.
22 Q. For shooting your brother-in-law, you did do
23 six months in jail, didn’t you?
24 A. No, I did not.
25 Q. You didn’t have 11 years, 29 days -- I’m

Page 323
1 sorry -- you didn’t have probation?
2 A. I had probation 11/29, 11 months, 29 days.
3 Q. And you didn’t go to jail? You didn’t go to
4 workhouse?
5 A. No, sir.
6 Q. Mr. Hobbs, let me hand you what has been
7 marked as Exhibit 5, and ask you if you’ve seen
8 that document before?
9 (Deposition Exhibit No. 5 was
10 marked.)
11 A. Where -- what’s this?
12 Q. It is a judgment against one Terry W. Hobbs,
13 Shelby County, Texas -- I’m sorry -- Tennessee,
14 where you were indicted for aggravated assault
15 and pled guilty to simple assault in ’94 in
16 conjunction with the shooting of your
17 brother-in-law. Is that your signature at the
18 bottom of the first page, sir?
19 A. It is.
20 Q. Does this refresh your recollection now as to
21 what you were indicted for and what you pled
22 guilty to?
23 A. No. This is -- I don’t know where this come
24 from. This is totally wrong.
25 Q. Did you -- is that your signature at the

Page 324
1 bottom of that page?
2 A. It is my signature.
3 Q. And you see here in the -- where it says
4 right there workhouse?
5 A. Yeah, I see that.
6 Q. You didn’t go to workhouse for six months?
7 A. No, sir. No.
8 Q. You weren’t -- turn to the second page. You
9 weren’t indicted?
10 A. I was indicted, sure.
11 Q. For intentional use of a deadly weapon to
12 cause hand -- the handgun to cause bodily injury
13 to Jackie Hicks, Jr.?
14 A. Right. I was indicted.
15 Q. Indicted for assault?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Aggravated assault, right?
18 A. Aggravated assault.
19 Q. And you pled guilty to simple assault?
20 A. No.
21 Q. No. What did you plead guilty to?
22 A. Discharging a firearm in the city limits.
23 Q. That’s not what the first page says, is it?
24 A. I see.
25 Q. Was the judge that did your case, was that

Page 325
1 Judge L.T. Lafferty?
2 A. I don’t remember.
3 Q. Did you have an attorney who represented you
4 in this?
5 A. The name is right there, Emans.
6 Q. That was your attorney?
7 A. Wayne Emans.
8 Q. Does that look like his signature?
9 A. Yeah.
10 Q. Yeah?
11 A. I guess. I don’t know how he writes.
12 Q. Well, do you recall seeing him write when you
13 get letters from him; do you recall that?
14 A. No.
15 Q. No. But that is your signature at the bottom
16 of the first page?
17 A. Yeah, it kind of looks like it.
18 Q. Okay. All right.
19 A. But all this stuff above it.
20 Q. You’ve got no explanation for any of that?
21 A. I know it did happen.
22 Q. Okay. All right.
23 A. I know I got a $50 fine, I did get that.
24 Q. Uh-huh.
25 A. And I got 11/29 probation, period.

Page 326
1 Q. Maybe you should have done time in the
2 workhouse and didn’t have to do it?
3 A. For what?
4 Q. The assault. Okay. And it’s your testimony
5 that you’ve never heard of a Mildred French?
6 A. Right. I don’t know her.
7 Q. Do you know a place called the Charter House?
8 A. That doesn’t ring a bell.
9 Q. Did you ever live at the Charter House?
10 A. No. What’s that?
11 Q. Were you ever charged with sexual assault at
12 22, when you were 22, 23, 24, that age?
13 A. No.
14 Q. No?
15 A. No, I don’t think so.
16 Q. Did you have to go to counsel -- court
17 ordered counseling when you were early twenties,
18 Mr. Hobbs?
19 A. Huh?
20 Q. Did you have to go to counseling in your
21 twenties as a result of any sort of assault?
22 A. Yeah. We had something happen back then. I
23 forget what it was.
24 Q. What happened?
25 A. I don’t remember.

Page 327
1 Q. Do you recall --
2 A. 30 years ago.
3 Q. Something happened. Criminal justice system
4 get involved?
5 A. I don’t remember.
6 Q. You don’t remember?
7 A. No.
8 Q. But you know you had to go to some sort of
9 counseling?
10 A. I think.
11 Q. Yeah. You never told Ms. Mildred French that
12 you killed her cat?
13 A. No.
14 Q. And again, talking about your reputation in
15 the community, isn’t it true, Mr. Hobbs, that
16 your ex-wife Pam filed complaints against you
17 regarding physical and sexual abuse of Amanda?
18 A. I don’t think so.
19 Q. You don’t think so? You weren’t reported to
20 DHS for physical and sexual abuse by Pam of
21 Amanda?
22 A. Pam told me it was her sister Jolynn that did
23 that.
24 Q. That Jolynn turned you in?
25 A. Right.

Page 328
1 Q. But you know a complaint was made against DHS
2 for physical and sexual abuse of Amanda?
3 A. Twice.
4 Q. Twice. When was that time?
5 A. After I got custody of my daughter.
6 Q. Okay.
7 A. In my divorce.
8 Q. Which was when?
9 A. I think ’04, ’05.
10 Q. That was -- when was the second time?
11 A. Same year. Both of them happened months
12 apart.
13 Q. Okay. Isn’t it true, Mr. Hobbs, that Amanda
14 herself has previously accused you of sexual
15 assault?
16 A. No, sir.
17 Q. It’s not true?
18 A. Not at all.
19 Q. Anybody who says otherwise is lying?
20 A. Most definitely. Kind of a cheap shot.
21 Q. And I apologize for having to ask that
22 question, sir. Down here, Paragraph 30 of the
23 complaint, Mr. Hobbs. And I don’t mean to run
24 you through the mud, I really don’t, and I
25 apologize for having to ask those questions. I

Page 329
1 do.
2 Paragraph 30 of the complaint, sir, talks
3 about the damages that you’ve suffered,
4 embarrassment, humiliation, psychological,
5 emotional, mental trauma, loss of income and
6 other compensatory damages. Have you told me
7 about all of the damages that you believe you’ve
8 suffered as a result of the conduct that has been
9 made the subject of your lawsuit against Ms.
10 Pasdar and the Dixie Chicks?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Okay. Mr. Hobbs, let me hand you what’s been
13 marked as Exhibit 6, and ask if you’ve seen that
14 document before?
15 (Deposition Exhibit No. 6 was
16 marked.)
17 THE WITNESS: Is this something we
18 did?
19 Q. That’s something -- those are your answers --
20 supposed to be your answers to Ms. Pasdar’s
21 interrogatory answers, and my question to you,
22 sir, is have you ever seen these documents
23 before?
24 A. No.
25 Q. No. Let me direct you to Page 7, Mr. Hobbs,

Page 330
1 in the back of that document. Entitled
2 Verification. Are you on the same page, sir?
3 Oh, I’m sorry. Hold on. I’m sorry. Sir, I gave
4 you the wrong document. This is -- I think -- at
5 least what I gave him was Ms. Pasdar’s objections
6 and responses. Is that what I gave you? I need
7 his answers and objections.
8 All right. Let me stand hand you -- let me
9 hand you Exhibit 7, which I know it’s entitled
10 Objections and Supplemental Responses to
11 Defendant Natalie Pasdar’s First Set of
12 Interrogatories. Exhibit 7, and I’ll get you the
13 new Exhibit 6 in a minute, sir, and ask if you’ve
14 seen that document? I apologize.
15 (Deposition Exhibit No. 7 was
16 marked.)
17 Q. Have you seen that document before, sir,
18 supplemental responses?
19 A. No.
20 Q. I’m sorry?
21 A. No.
22 Q. You’ve never seen this document before; is
23 that your testimony? You have to answer out
24 loud, sir?
25 A. Yes. I don’t recall it.

Page 331
1 Q. Okay. That’s fine. I direct you attention
2 to -- and this is a document that your lawyer
3 signed, your lawyer served on us. This is a
4 verification. Is that your signature?
5 A. That is.
6 Q. Do you recall reviewing the answers to these
7 interrogatories, and then signing in front of a
8 notary public saying that they were, and all
9 things to the best of your knowledge true and
10 correct?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Okay. So now you do recall that now?
13 A. Yeah.
14 Q. Okay. And who prepared the interrogatory
15 answers? Who prepared these answers? Did you do
16 that or did your lawyers do that?
17 A. Well, I had my attorneys working for me.
18 Q. I appreciate that, and they’re doing a fine
19 job, but my question is who prepared -- who
20 prepared the answers; did you prepare the answers
21 or did counsel prepare the answers?
22 A. Counsel.
23 Q. Counsel. And did you review the answers
24 prior to the time that you signed the
25 verification, or did you just sign the

Page 332
1 verification knowing that your lawyers would get
2 it right?
3 A. I probably read it and then had them sign --
4 then signed it.
5 Q. So read it and then signed it?
6 A. Probably.
7 Q. Probably or you did?
8 A. We do a lot of stuff over the fax, and this
9 is probably one that we did over the fax.
10 Q. You recall getting a copy of that via the
11 fax?
12 A. Probably so.
13 Q. Okay. And do you recall making any changes
14 or revisions to the answers as prepared by your
15 counsel prior to the time that you signed it?
16 A. Well, I remember this. I remember this.
17 Q. You remember this now?
18 A. Sure do.
19 Q. As a matter of fact, you provided the
20 verification --
21 A. I had to rewrite this.
22 Q. You had to -- well, that’s right. You
23 answered -- you had to provide an answer first,
24 and then you had to provide supplemental answers,
25 and that’s the second set of answers, isn’t it?

Page 333
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Do you recall -- and then a couple of weeks
3 later, we had to get you to verify it, right?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. Do you recall -- you signed the verification
6 and sent it in to Cody, right?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. Right. But you did -- you did review all the
9 answers prior to the time that you signed them,
10 and you told Cody it was okay to send, right?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. Okay. On the supplemental answers, looking
13 at Interrogatory No. 15, which is the -- in fact,
14 it’s right before the -- it’s the very last
15 question, Mr. Hobbs, before the long single
16 spaced narrative. It starts here -- it starts
17 here and then you start your answer runs here?
18 A. I wrote this.
19 Q. All right. That was my question. Did you
20 prepare this answer to the single-spaced answer
21 to Interrogatory 15 in response to the
22 interrogatory, or is that something that you had
23 had prepared previously?
24 A. This is something I was asked to do.
25 Q. Okay. And the answers that are in Exhibit 7

Page 334
1 are, to the best of your knowledge, true and
2 correct answers, right, to all of the questions?
3 A. Well, I hope they are.
4 Q. Okay. On Page 7 -- Interrogatory 7 -- not
5 Page 7, Interrogatory 7. It’s right here, sir.
6 You state in response to Interrogatory No. 7,
7 Hobbs, members of his family and acquaintances
8 had interaction with people who believe the false
9 allegation of murder. And I’d like to know what
10 members of your family and acquaintances are you
11 referring to and what people have you had
12 interactions with that believe the false
13 allegations. Well, first of all, what members of
14 your family?
15 A. That done what?
16 Q. That had interactions with people who believe
17 Ms. Pasdar’s false allegations of murder. Can
18 you identify for me --
19 A. I can’t think of them.
20 Q. Anybody?
21 A. No.
22 Q. All right. What acquaintances are you
23 referring to there, and can you identify
24 somebody? You can’t, can you?
25 A. Not right off.

Page 335
1 Q. And can you identify the people that they
2 have had interactions with who believe Ms.
3 Pasdar’s false allegations of murder? You can’t,
4 can you?
5 A. Not right off.
6 MR. DAVISON: Ted, apparently we did
7 not bring a clean set. This is --
8 MS. DAVIS: I’m trying to get it
9 faxed to us right now.
10 MR. DAVISON: That’s okay. All that
11 is is highlighted. You can look at it, and
12 there’s no handwritten notations, it’s just
13 highlighting.
14 MR. THOMAS: You wanted to question
15 him?
16 MR. DAVISON: Yeah. Well, I was
17 going to actually have it marked. I think the
18 court reporter, when she makes a copy of it --
19 MR. MOORE: We should have a clean
20 copy right here.
21 MR. DAVISON: Okay. Well, let’s go
22 ahead and we’ll mark it -- is that it?
23 MR. MOORE: I think that’s ours.
24 MR. DAVISON: Same problem. No. 6.
25 We’ll just mark it and then sub it out with a

Page 336
1 clean copy. Is that acceptable with you guys?
2 MR. THOMAS: That’s fine.
3 Q. Mr. Hobbs, let me hand you what we have
4 remarked as Exhibit 6, which I’ll represent to
5 you is a copy of Objections and the Responses to
6 Defendant Natalie Pasdar’s First Set of
7 Interrogatories made by you. The highlighting on
8 here -- it’s this here, sir. The highlighting on
9 here is my highlighting. We will substitute a
10 copy, a clean copy, when we get it. But my
11 question to you, sir, is have you seen that
12 document before, and disregard the highlighting.
13 A. No, I don’t think I have seen it.
14 Q. What I’ll tell you, Mr. Hobbs, is this is
15 first set of answers that you had to then go back
16 and provide some additional answers to. Do you
17 recall seeing that set of interrogatories -- that
18 set of written questions first?
19 A. I remember this part of it.
20 Q. The question and answer part?
21 A. Well, they wanted -- y’all wanted to know my
22 doctors’ names that I’ve been to and surgeries
23 I’ve had done.
24 Q. So they -- so you recall specific -- just
25 answering some specific questions at this point?

Page 337
1 A. Well, given the information that y’all
2 needed.
3 Q. Sure. Okay?
4 A. Signing a form saying that you could have
5 access to my medical records.
6 Q. Correct. And for the record, that is your
7 signature, which is on Page 7 on the
8 verification?
9 A. Yes, it is.
10 Q. All right. And you recall signing that in
11 front of --
12 A. Given the okay to do it.
13 Q. Okay to do it. And when you went through
14 everything is, best to your knowledge, honest,
15 and truthful and complete?
16 A. Yeah.
17 Q. All right. Whose Mary S----?
18 A. She’s my counselor.
19 Q. And when -- and she’s the wife of a pastor of
20 a church you attend?
21 A. Yes, sir.
22 Q. Currently attend?
23 A. Yes, sir.
24 Q. And what church is that, Mr. Hobbs?
25 A. H---- S----- Church.

Page 338
1 Q. Where is H---- S----?
2 A. In Memphis.
3 Q. Memphis, Tennessee?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. And is that -- what denomination?
6 A. Methodist church.
7 Q. A Methodist church. When did you consult
8 with Ms. S---- --
9 A. In the past couple of years.
10 Q. Okay. Starting when?
11 A. Back after this stuff started coming out on
12 the airways.
13 Q. This stuff --
14 A. In ’07.
15 Q. In ’07. Back in the spring of ’07?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. Okay. And continues till today?
18 A. Correct.
19 Q. What sort of counseling did she provide you?
20 A. Just counseling. I don’t know what -- if you
21 were to label it, but she does grief share
22 counseling.
23 Q. Okay. In a group setting or a one-on-one
24 setting?
25 A. Both. It’s been both ways.

Page 339
1 Q. It’s been both ways.
2 A. But it’s more of a group than it is
3 one-on-one.
4 Q. When was the last time you went to the -- is
5 this a grief class?
6 A. It is.
7 Q. A grief counseling class at the church?
8 A. It is.
9 Q. For people who have lost spouses or children
10 or loved ones?
11 A. Right.
12 Q. And they meet -- they typically meet weekly
13 or every other week?
14 A. Every two weeks.
15 Q. Every two weeks. When was the last time you
16 went?
17 A. We -- we haven’t had one -- they do it for so
18 long, they stop it, they start it back up, and
19 they do it for so long and stop it.
20 Q. And when did you --
21 A. I’ve done two sessions with them, and we’ll
22 be working on the next one coming up.
23 Q. When was the first time that you started to
24 attend grief counseling in conjunction with --
25 A. I’m not sure of the date and time.

Page 340
1 Q. Approximately?
2 A. It was in ’07.
3 Q. ’07. Between ’93 and ’07, did you attend any
4 grief counseling on behalf -- in connection with
5 the murder of your stepson?
6 A. Yes, I have.
7 Q. When did you first go to grief counseling?
8 A. ’93.
9 Q. How long did you attend that counseling?
10 A. I don’t recall that.
11 Q. Do you recall when you stopped? Was there a
12 period of time in which you stopped going to
13 counseling, Mr. Hobbs?
14 A. There was.
15 Q. And do you recall approximately when that
16 was?
17 A. No. I don’t remember that.
18 Q. And I take it, that once the public debate
19 about the DNA results started to come out in the
20 spring of ’07, that you found it helpful to you
21 to go back to counseling, or was it --
22 A. Spring of ’07 got me kicked out of one
23 homicide group that I was attending.
24 Q. All right. Is that when you went to Ms.
25 S-----’s?

Page 341
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. Group?
3 A. It was the church.
4 Q. When -- what group did you get kicked out of
5 in the spring of ’07?
6 A. Victims to Victory group.
7 Q. And who kicked you out?
8 A. I forget the lady that run the show, but it
9 was her that sent me a letter and asked me not to
10 come back.
11 Q. Did she say why?
12 A. Because of all the stuff that was in the --
13 on the news.
14 Q. And that was in spring of ’07, correct?
15 A. Sometimes in ’07.
16 Q. Was it before or after Ms. Pasdar’s
17 statement? It was before, right?
18 A. I think it was.
19 Q. And the fact that you were asked not to come
20 back to a particular group, that had absolutely
21 nothing to do, as far as you’re aware, of any
22 statement by Ms. Hobbs -- I’m sorry -- by Ms.
23 Pasdar or the Dixie Chicks, correct?
24 A. I believe that’s right.
25 Q. Okay. Dr. Mike M-------, who’s that?

Page 342
1 A. He was a medical doctor. He’s the one I told
2 you while ago I called and asked him something
3 for my nerves -- or blood pressure, whatever it
4 was.
5 Q. Okay. And again, this is about the same time
6 you got kicked out of the support group?
7 A. This is like -- I believe this was last year.
8 Q. Last year in ’08?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. And as I recall your testimony -- and correct
11 me if I’m wrong, Mr. Hobbs -- you did not get any
12 medication from him to control your blood
13 pressure?
14 A. Right. He wanted me to come by and take time
15 off from work, and I couldn’t afford all this.
16 Q. Okay. Is that the only interaction you’ve
17 had with Dr. M-------?
18 A. It is.
19 Q. Okay. And Dr. -- is it Winthrop?
20 A. Dr. Winthrop.
21 Q. Who is he?
22 A. He was a company -- a Workers’ Comp. doctor.
23 Q. When did you see Dr. Winthrop?
24 A. Years ago. It’s been a long time. It was
25 just work-related injuries.

Page 343
1 Q. Had that -- I assume that had absolutely
2 nothing to do with what brings us here today?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. And other visits to medical providers that
5 are in any way connected with the events that
6 bring us here today?
7 A. No. I don’t go to the doctors.
8 Q. Where do you stand in your current efforts to
9 get a book deal?
10 A. On hold.
11 Q. What was the last efforts that you took to
12 secure a book deal?
13 A. I don’t know. We did the contract with
14 Hollywood, and that was for a movie, and I think
15 probably book rights to. I think our contract
16 has us bound on the book until the movie, if
17 there ever would be one, was made.
18 Q. I’ll hand you what’s been marked as Exhibit
19 8, Mr. Hobbs, and ask if that is in fact a true
20 and correct copy -- is that a copy of the
21 Dimension Films agreement? I know this is not
22 signed, but this is the one you produced.
23 (Deposition Exhibit No. 8 was
24 marked.)
25 A. I guess.

Page 344
1 Q. Do you have a signed copy?
2 A. I’m not sure. Must not have, because that’s
3 what I give -- this is what I turned in.
4 Q. That’s what you gave Mr. -- your counsel?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. It says in here -- you said you got 12.5,
7 right, 12,500?
8 A. We did.
9 Q. All right. Is that each? You got 12.5, Pam
10 got 12.5?
11 A. Yeah.
12 Q. Okay. Now, I’m wondering if this is just a
13 draft, because this says you’re going to get paid
14 15,000?
15 A. That was wrong.
16 Q. That was wrong. So this was --
17 A. That was --
18 Q. A first draft?
19 A. Yeah, I think.
20 Q. Okay. And so you were negotiating for a
21 better price?
22 A. Ross was.
23 Q. Ross was. And Ross got you a better deal?
24 A. 25.
25 Q. 25 as opposed to 15. That’s a pretty good

Page 345
1 increase?
2 A. Yeah.
3 Q. It says it’s dated July 18, 2006. Is that
4 about the time that you did the deal with
5 Dimension, in the 2006 time --
6 A. That was the deal. That’s the right date,
7 I’m sure.
8 Q. Okay. But sometime in the summer of 2006,
9 does that sound about right when you did the
10 Dimension Films?
11 A. I thought it was ’05, but I can go with ’06.
12 Q. You can go with’06. All right.
13 A. Whatever they dated it.
14 Q. And you haven’t sold any other rights, any
15 other film rights?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Do you recall there being -- there was a --
18 there’s -- I don’t want to have to mark this
19 unless I have to, Mr. Hobbs. I can. There’s a
20 report on Action 5 News last summer, August the
21 8th, 2008 by Janice Broach that basically says,
22 the man suspected in the West Memphis Three
23 murders 15 years ago is writing a tell-all book?
24 A. Damien?
25 Q. You.

Page 346
1 A. The man that’s suspected in the murders 15
2 years ago, that’s Damien Echols. It wasn’t me.
3 Q. Do you recall -- are you writing a tell-all
4 book? Have you told folks that you’re writing a
5 tell-all book, Mr. Hobbs?
6 A. No, I haven’t.
7 Q. Did you ever tell Janice Broach you’re
8 writing a tell-all book?
9 A. No. That’s not me. You must be talking
10 about Damien. Wasn’t one of his books named that
11 while ago that you were showing me?
12 Q. Let me hand you what’s been marked Exhibit 9.
13 Do you recall there being a news -- a TV story
14 last summer by Ms. Broach about your efforts to
15 sell the story?
16 (Deposition Exhibit No. 9 was
17 marked.)
18 A. Yeah, but it wasn’t no tell-all thing. I’ve
19 been writing a story about this for a long time.
20 Q. It says, Terry Hobbs said he just may go to
21 that hearing?
22 A. Which one?
23 Q. The hearing about the DNA results. But he
24 also said he’s got a book deal. Have you got a
25 book deal?

Page 347
1 A. No, I don’t have a book deal.
2 Q. So --
3 A. See, this was a misquote.
4 Q. Oh, that’s a misquote?
5 A. Uh-huh.
6 Q. Either that or --
7 A. I don’t have a book deal.
8 Q. Did you tell her you had a book deal?
9 A. No. I may have told her I’ve been working on
10 a book, and they have known about this for years,
11 because I’ve never kept this a secret.
12 Q. There’s a quote from you down there. Part of
13 it is in the hands of a publisher or a book
14 writer -- not a publisher, a writer. I think
15 we’re going to have a pretty good story about
16 this, Hobbs said?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. A video of you saying that?
19 A. Yeah, I said that.
20 Q. Okay. Hobbs said it was about 300, 400
21 pages, and someone in Hollywood wants the
22 rights -- first rights to the book. Who in
23 Hollywood wants the rights to the first book
24 you’re writing?
25 A. I’m not sure about that, but I have put

Page 348
1 together pretty good stories, I feel like. It’s
2 something I done.
3 Q. One of the things you want to say in your
4 stories is you’re suing the Dixie Chicks; is that
5 part of your book?
6 A. I haven’t mentioned them.
7 Q. Do you intend to mention them in your book
8 for your film deal?
9 A. I doubt it.
10 Q. You told the press before 2000 -- the media
11 as well, before 2007 that you were working on a
12 book, did you not?
13 A. I’ve been working on one, and it hasn’t been
14 -- it’s nothing new for years. Everybody has
15 known this.
16 Q. Everybody has known that you’ve been working
17 on a book? Widely reported that you’re working
18 on a book, right?
19 A. I’ve been working on a story.
20 Q. Story. With the hopes of selling it, and
21 making it a book and selling it and making it a
22 movie, right?
23 A. I don’t know about the movie part, but the
24 book, there’s a story that we have to tell, and
25 one day it will be out there.

Page 349
1 Q. Okay. Are you aware of a company called
2 Clear Pictures?
3 A. I’ve heard of that.
4 Q. Have you ever had any dealings with anybody
5 from a company called Clear Pictures?
6 A. I’m not sure.
7 Q. Have you --
8 A. Ain’t that part of Dimension Films?
9 Q. I don’t know. Is it?
10 A. I’m thinking it might be.
11 Q. Do you have any agreements with a company
12 called Clear Pictures?
13 A. I’m not a sure. I’d have to -- I don’t know
14 what you’re talking about just yet.
15 MR. DAVISON: Can I have some more
16 stickers, ma’am?
17 Q. Let me hand you what’s been marked as Exhibit
18 10, Mr. Hobbs, which is an article that appeared
19 on November the 27th, 2007 right around the time
20 all the DNA stuff was breaking. And turn your
21 attention to the second page of that, sir. The
22 last -- second to the last paragraph, Carter
23 Malone, account supervisor, Kalisa Hyman, said
24 the firm has been hired by Clear Pictures, a
25 Hollywood production company that plans to make a

Page 350
1 movie based on the West Memphis Three murders.
2 The firm has bought the life stories of several
3 people tied to the case. Hyman says the company
4 has also bought Hobbs’ life rights, she said?
5 (Deposition Exhibit No. 10 was
6 marked.)
7 A. Oh, this is that Dimension Films.
8 Q. This is -- this is Dimension Films?
9 A. Contract. Yeah, it’s probably something
10 associated with them, but this is that.
11 Q. Okay. You don’t have a separate deal with
12 any company called Clear Pictures?
13 A. No.
14 Q. As far as you know?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. Okay.
17 VIDEOGRAPHER: Mr. Davison, we have
18 about two minutes left.
19 MR. DAVISON: Why don’t we change
20 tapes then.
21 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are going off
22 record for a tape change at 4:27 p.m.
23 (Off the record.)
24 (Back on the record.)
25 VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re back on record


Page 351
1 after a tape change at 4:30 p.m.
2 Q. (By Mr. Davison) Mr. Hobbs, I just have one
3 or two questions, and then my colleague, Ms.
4 Davis, will have a couple, and then I think
5 Mr. Wellenberger may have a couple of questions
6 as well.
7 In that article, the one that we looked at
8 here, talks about 23 -- some tape --
9 surreptitiously recorded tapes between yours and
10 Mr. Byers. Did you know that Mr. Byers recorded
11 conversations with you?
12 A. No, I didn’t know it at that time. That’s
13 how I found out, too, on the internet.
14 Q. Have you heard any of those tapes?
15 A. Sure.
16 Q. Sure. What’s on those tapes?
17 A. Just us talking.
18 Q. Did you talk about the murders?
19 A. He might have.
20 Q. Did you?
21 A. No. I don’t really remember, but you’re
22 welcome to listen to them.
23 Q. Do you have them?
24 A. No, I don’t.
25 Q. Mr. Byers has them, right?

Page 352
1 A. I don’t know who has them.
2 Q. In that article you talk about yourself as
3 a -- you refer to yourself in a biblical -- let
4 me see -- biblical figure, Job. What did you
5 mean about that?
6 A. Do you know anything about Job?
7 Q. A little. Probably not as much as I should,
8 sir. What did you mean when you referred to
9 yourself as Job?
10 A. Well, read up on Job. It’s a pretty good
11 story.
12 Q. Yes, sir. My mama always tries to get me to
13 spend a little time with the good book.
14 A. Doesn’t hurt.
15 Q. It can’t hurt anybody. What did you mean
16 when you referred to yourself as the biblical
17 figure, Job?
18 A. Well, the story of Job. Job loses
19 everything, everything but his wife and life, and
20 we was probably referring to something like that.
21 Q. Okay. Do you -- I take it you’ve given a lot
22 of thought over the years about what happened
23 that night on May the 5th, haven’t you?
24 A. Sure.
25 Q. Do you -- do you believe that whoever

Page 353
1 murdered those boys planned to murder them or did
2 it just kind of happen?
3 A. I don’t know.
4 Q. Can you think of any reason why the three
5 little boys would have been murdered?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Do you think it’s possible that somebody just
8 got angry and got out of control?
9 A. We don’t know.
10 Q. I would assume, that if that happened, that
11 person would feel very remorseful about what
12 happened?
13 A. I would hope.
14 Q. Do you think they would blame themselves or
15 would they seek to blame others or some
16 combination?
17 A. I’m not sure.
18 MR. DAVISON: We can go off the
19 record.
20 VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re going off the
21 record for a break at 4:30 p.m.
22 (A break was taken.)
23 (Back on the record.)
24 (Mr. Davison is not present at
25 this time.)

 

Page 354
1 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on record
2 after a break at 4:41 p.m.
3 EXAMINATION
4 BY MS. DAVIS:
5 Q. Mr. Hobbs, my name is D’Lesli Davis, and I
6 also represent Natalie Pasdar; do you understand
7 that?
8 A. I do.
9 Q. And you understand you’re still oath in the
10 same deposition going forward. No change just
11 because I’m asking questions?
12 A. I do.
13 Q. Okay. We’ve been talking about the murders.
14 I want to be clear. The murders we’ve been
15 talking about day in your deposition are the
16 murders of three little boys that occurred in
17 West Memphis, Arkansas on May 5th of 1993,
18 correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And one of those little boys was your
21 stepson, Stevie Branch?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. The other two were Michael Moore and
24 Christopher Byers; is that correct?
25 A. Yes, ma’am.

Page 355
1 Q. And ultimately three teenagers were convicted
2 of the murders, correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. And that’s Jessie Misskelley, Damien Echols
5 and Jason Baldwin; is that correct?
6 A. Correct.
7 Q. And those three teenagers that I just listed,
8 those -- those boys became known as the West
9 Memphis Three in the press, correct?
10 A. Right.
11 Q. At the time of the murders you were married
12 to Pam Hobbs, correct?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Did you ever adopt Stevie?
15 A. No, ma’am.
16 Q. You were not interviewed by the West Memphis
17 Police Department in 1993; is that correct?
18 A. I was.
19 Q. Okay. And was it a formal interview?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Do you know if they recorded it?
22 A. I don’t remember that.
23 Q. Did they read you your rights?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Do you recall which police officer

Page 356
1 interrogated you?
2 A. Not right off.
3 Q. Do you recall where the interview happened?
4 A. West Memphis Police Department.
5 Q. And did they call you down there to interview
6 you?
7 A. They did.
8 Q. Were you alone or with anyone else?
9 A. Me and Pam went.
10 Q. So the two of you were interviewed together?
11 A. Maybe separate, but we went together.
12 Q. Other than that one interview in 1993, did
13 you have any other interviews with the West
14 Memphis Police Department in ’93?
15 A. I can’t recall any.
16 Q. Can you recall any in ’94?
17 A. Not really.
18 Q. Any interviews with the police in 1995?
19 A. No.
20 Q. ’96?
21 A. Not in West Memphis.
22 Q. ’97?
23 A. No.
24 Q. ’98?
25 A. No.

Page 357
1 Q. ’99?
2 A. No.
3 Q. 2000?
4 A. No.
5 Q. 2001?
6 A. No.
7 Q. 2002?
8 A. No.
9 Q. 2003?
10 A. No.
11 Q. 2004?
12 A. Not up until ’07.
13 Q. All right. So I’ve got 2005, not interviewed
14 by the West Memphis Police Department; is that
15 correct?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. And 2006 not interviewed?
18 A. I believe.
19 Q. From 1993, the interview when you and Pam
20 went down to the West Memphis Police Department,
21 up until 2007 when you were interviewed by the
22 West Memphis Police Department, did you speak to
23 any law enforcement agency about the murders?
24 A. No, ma’am.
25 Q. The police have repeatedly said that you’re

Page 358
1 not a suspect in the murders, correct?
2 A. Right.
3 Q. And I’m just going to refer to the May 5th,
4 1993 murders as the murders; is that okay?
5 A. Okay.
6 Q. What is your understanding of why the police
7 are so confident that you were not involved in
8 the murders?
9 A. I think -- well, I kind of feel like they
10 know my whereabouts the night of.
11 Q. And you’ve mentioned that you were with David
12 Jacoby, you were with Pam Hobbs, you were with
13 Jackie Hicks, Sr. Are there any other witnesses
14 who could provide an alibi for you on the night
15 of May 5th of 1993?
16 A. The West Memphis Police Department.
17 Q. How long do you think you spent with the West
18 Memphis Police Department on May 5th of 1993?
19 A. I made two or three trips down there during
20 the night different times asking for help.
21 Q. And you do not recall what times you went
22 down to the West Memphis Police Department?
23 A. No, I don’t.
24 Q. Okay. With the inclusion of officers at the
25 West Memphis Police Department, Amanda Hobbs, Pam

Page 359
1 Hobbs, David Jacoby and Jackie Hicks, Sr., are
2 there any other witness or persons that can
3 provide an alibi for you on the night of May 5th,
4 1993 or May -- the day of May 6th, 1993?
5 A. Marie Hicks, Pam’s mother.
6 Q. Anyone else?
7 A. And the police.
8 Q. And which specific police officers are you
9 referring to?
10 A. The ones that were on duty at the police
11 officer -- the department.
12 Q. Do you know their name?
13 A. No, I don’t.
14 Q. Are there any other persons that can provide
15 an alibi for you on the night of May 5th, 1993 or
16 the morning of May 6 of 1993 that we didn’t just
17 list?
18 A. Pam’s ex-husbands, and a lot of the search
19 and rescue people that showed up May the 6th
20 a.m.
21 Q. Fair enough. With limiting this to people
22 whose names you know, have we now listed all the
23 persons who could provide an alibi for you on the
24 night of May 5th of 1993 or the morning of May
25 6th of 1993?

Page 360
1 A. I don’t know.
2 Q. Jessie Misskelley -- can you think of any
3 other names as you sit here right now?
4 A. No, but there’s lots of people that was
5 there.
6 Q. I understand. But there are no other names
7 that you can provide right now?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Jessie Misskelley was convicted and sentenced
10 to life plus 40 years; is that correct?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And that occurred in 1994?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. And then Jason Baldwin and Damien Echols were
15 convicted also in 1994 in a joint trial; is that
16 correct?
17 A. Correct.
18 Q. And Baldwin was sentenced to life in prison
19 without the possibility of parole?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. And Echols was sentenced to death by lethal
22 injection?
23 A. Yes, ma’am.
24 Q. And according to your understanding, the West
25 Memphis Three are currently in prison?

Page 361
1 A. Right.
2 Q. But they have these various appeals pending?
3 A. Right. I guess.
4 Q. Have you listed through your deposition up to
5 this point all of the persons you can name who
6 actually saw the Natalie Pasdar letter on the
7 internet?
8 A. Oh, I don’t -- I don’t know who all seen it.
9 Q. Well, you mentioned --
10 A. Lots of people seen it.
11 Q. Sorry. You mentioned your brothers?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Are there any other persons that you can give
14 us their name?
15 A. My sister.
16 Q. What’s her name?
17 A. My aunts.
18 Q. Your sister’s name is what?
19 A. Cindy Hobbs.
20 Q. And your aunt’s name is what?
21 A. Rita, Linda, Connie.
22 Q. Anyone else --
23 A. My mother.
24 Q. What’s her name?
25 A. Edith.

Page 362
1 Q. Anyone else?
2 A. Cousins.
3 Q. Let’s go outside your family. Can you name
4 for me any persons outside your family that saw
5 the Natalie Pasdar letter on the internet?
6 A. Not right off.
7 Q. During the trial, you spoke on camera to the
8 Paradise Lost documentary filmmakers, correct?
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. Is that right?
11 A. Correct.
12 Q. And you went on the Geraldo show in March of
13 1994, Correct?
14 A. Okay. Yes.
15 Q. And you spoke on that show, correct?
16 A. As a guest.
17 Q. And do you recall directly addressing Jessie
18 Misskelley’s father on the show?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Were you flown to New York by the Geraldo
21 show and put up at a hotel for that appearance?
22 A. Yes, ma’am.
23 Q. Let me hand you what I’m going to mark as
24 Deposition Exhibit 11, 12, 13 and 14.
25 (Deposition Exhibit Nos. 11, 12,

Page 363
1 13 and 14 were marked.)
2 Q. And I’ll represent to you that these are
3 copies of your journals that were produced to us
4 in the litigation. Look through those Deposition
5 Exhibits and tell me if those are true and
6 accurate copies of your journals.
7 A. Looks like it, right.
8 Q. And I’ll note for you, just for ease of when
9 we’re talking about these journals, I have put 1,
10 2, 3 and 4 down there so that we can just refer
11 to which journal entry I’m talking about, okay?
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. Let me show you Deposition Exhibit No. 15,
14 and my question to you would be whether that is a
15 true and correct copy of the interview that you
16 and Pam Hobbs gave to the Dimension Films
17 filmmakers regarding the murders, the effect of
18 the murders on your family, the West Memphis
19 Three, and basically just y’all’s lives, and
20 this, again, is a document --
21 (Deposition Exhibit No. 15 was
22 marked.)
23 A. Did you get this from them?
24 Q. I’m not sure, as I sit here right now, where
25 we got this document from. Have you ever seen it

Page 364
1 before?
2 A. I’m not sure I have.
3 Q. Do you need to take a break to look through
4 that to determine if it’s correct?
5 A. Do you want me to read every page?
6 Q. No. I was hoping you could -- I was hoping
7 you could flip through it and say --
8 A. I’m trying to recognize some of it.
9 Q. I was hoping you could flip through it and
10 say, yes, this is a true and correct copy of the
11 interview that Pam and I gave?
12 A. Well, I don’t want to say that without
13 knowing for sure.
14 Q. Fair enough.
15 A. But it looks like a copy of something.
16 Q. Does it look like a copy of that interview?
17 A. I don’t know yet.
18 Q. Well --
19 MR. THOMAS: He’s never seen it
20 before.
21 MS. DAVIS: That’s fair enough. And
22 if -- and I don’t think he’s testified to that,
23 by the way.
24 Q. Have you ever seen that document before?
25 A. It don’t look like it.

Page 365
1 Q. Fair enough.
2 A. We may have --
3 MR. THOMAS: He hasn’t seen it
4 before right now.
5 MS. DAVIS: I think we’ve produced
6 this to you.
7 MR. THOMAS: I believe that’s
8 correct.
9 A. It may have been, but I don’t recognize this
10 yet.
11 Q. Do you want to take some more time to look at
12 it? All I’m suggesting is that we’ll take a
13 break and turn off the video if you need some
14 time to flip through that.
15 A. Well, I’d rather go home.
16 Q. I understand that.
17 A. I’ve got a three-hour drive.
18 Q. We all -- we all agree with that, but I’m
19 afraid we’ve got some more to plow through. Are
20 you comfortable, after flipping through
21 Deposition Exhibit No. 15, that that is a copy of
22 the interview that you and Pam Hobbs gave to the
23 Dimension Films filmmakers?
24 A. Okay. That sounds better.
25 Q. And do you recall when that interview

Page 366
1 occurred?
2 A. ’05, ’06.
3 Q. When we turn to the four different journals
4 that are Deposition Exhibits 11 through 13, they
5 are not journals like journals I’ve seen where
6 there’s always a date entry before you start
7 writing; would you agree with me about that?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. Is there any way, as you sit here today, that
10 you can tell me when Deposition Exhibit 11 was
11 created, when 12, when 13 or when 14 were
12 created?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Is there any way to glean that at all?
15 A. Probably not, because I started on this back
16 in the early nineties.
17 Q. And I believe you previously testified -- I
18 don’t want to go over ground we’ve already
19 covered. I believe you testified that you
20 started the journal probably in 1993 after the
21 murders?
22 A. Well, sometime after the trials, because the
23 trials went up till ’94.
24 Q. Fair enough. ’93 or ’94 you started the
25 journal?

Page 367
1 A. Okay.
2 Q. And am I correct that Deposition Exhibit 11
3 is the beginning, would have been the document
4 that was the first journal and the journal that
5 was started in ’93 or ’94?
6 A. Probably so.
7 Q. And those journals are in your handwriting,
8 correct?
9 A. Yeah. This so far looks like my writing.
10 Q. Now, some places in there, it looks like
11 somebody with different handwriting has come in
12 and either added a word or made a correction?
13 A. Pam.
14 Q. That was Pam Hobbs’s handwriting?
15 A. Yeah. She was correcting me.
16 Q. She’s correcting your work. Fair enough.
17 And when did Pam go through your journals and
18 correct the work; was that one time, or did she
19 do it periodically?
20 A. No. One time she got mad and she would take
21 off, and she would just take anything that
22 thought was something of mine, and she would take
23 it, and this is one time she took my writings and
24 come back and kept them for years, and when I
25 finally got them back, this is how I got them

Page 368
1 back.
2 Q. They were corrected?
3 A. I guess.
4 Q. Is it your testimony that Pam took
5 Depositions 11, 12, 13 and 14 all at one time?
6 A. If they were all put together at one time,
7 yes. If I was -- had been through with them all,
8 yes, if not, no.
9 Q. So whatever chunk of the journals you were
10 done with whenever this event occurred, Pam took
11 them all with her and kept them for a year or so?
12 A. Or longer.
13 Q. Or longer. And then returned them to you
14 with corrections?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Have you reviewed any scripts with regard to
17 any movies based on the story of your life or the
18 murders of the West Memphis Three?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Jackie Hicks, Jr. let you know that he
21 suspected that you had been involved in the
22 murders, correct?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And what did he tell you about that?
25 A. He was only believing his sisters.

Page 369
1 Q. I understand that’s your interpretation of
2 what happened, that he was believing what his
3 sisters said, but what specifically did Jackie
4 Hicks tell you when he let you know that he
5 believed you were involved in the murders of
6 Stevie, Michael and Christopher?
7 A. I don’t think he put it to me like that.
8 Q. How did you come to know that Jackie Hicks,
9 Jr. believed you have been involved in the
10 murders?
11 A. After I kept hearing his sisters say all the
12 stuff they was saying, I knew it’d get back to
13 him.
14 Q. Isn’t it true that Jackie Hicks, Jr. told you
15 that he was going to kill you for your
16 involvement in the Stevie murder?
17 A. Yes.
18 Q. And when did he tell you he was going to kill
19 you for being involved in the murder of Stevie?
20 A. ’93, ’94, roughly.
21 Q. Prior to the time that he was shot by you; is
22 that correct?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Other than telling you that he believed you
25 were involved in the murders and that he was

Page 370
1 going to kill you for your involvement in
2 Stevie’s murders, did you have any other
3 conversations with Jackie Hicks, Jr. about
4 whether or not you were involved in the murders?
5 A. I don’t think so.
6 Q. When you shot Jackie Hicks, Jr., were you at
7 all motivated by the fact that he believed that
8 you had been involved in the murder of Stevie,
9 Michael and Christopher?
10 A. First of all, I didn’t point a gun at Jackie
11 to shoot him. This was an accident, but it
12 happened. Jackie told me he was fixing to break
13 my neck when I pulled the trigger. I didn’t know
14 it hit him until it knocked him off of me.
15 Q. Let me turn your attention to Journal No. 2,
16 which is Deposition Exhibit No. 12. There’s a
17 bates number at the bottom. Can you see that,
18 Hobbs, yeah. Turn to Hobbs 1026, please.
19 VIDEOGRAPHER: Ms. Davis, could you
20 try moving the microphone just a little bit?
21 MS. DAVIS: Great. Tell me if that
22 works.
23 VIDEOGRAPHER: Thank you.
24 Q. Let me direct your attention to the
25 highlighted portion of Journal 2, and I’m going

Page 371
1 to read it aloud and you tell me if I read it
2 correctly.
3 Pam tells me that her brother tells her, that
4 when he walked in our house and seen Pam’s face,
5 he had a flashback, and all he could see is what
6 Stevie looked like, so he walks outside my home
7 over to where I’m standing at the back of my
8 pickup and starts his reign of terror on me,
9 which lasted a little while before he met Willy.
10 My gun did have a name. Did I read that
11 correctly? You need to say yes or no.
12 A. Yes. Yes.
13 Q. And that is -- in your handwriting, there’s a
14 journal entry about the night that you shot
15 Jackie Hicks, Jr., correct?
16 A. Yeah. It happened.
17 Q. And certainly this journal entry would
18 suggest, not that there was an accidents when
19 your gun went off and you hit Jackie Hicks, Jr.
20 with a bullet, but rather, that after Jackie
21 Hicks, Jr. began to hit you, you introduced him
22 to your gun, Willy; is that correct?
23 A. Not in the manner that you’re stating.
24 Q. There’s nothing in that journal entry,
25 though, that would reflect that it was an

Page 372
1 accident when you killed Jackie Hicks, Jr.; is
2 that fair?
3 A. Are you sure?
4 Q. Can you point me to anything in here that
5 would suggest that your shooting of Jackie Hicks,
6 Jr. was accidental?
7 A. It sure was.
8 Q. Can you point me to anything in your journals
9 that would reflect that?
10 A. I can’t at the moment, but it’s in here.
11 Q. You don’t deny that David Jacoby’s hair was
12 found at the crime scene, you just don’t know one
13 way or the other; is that correct?
14 A. I don’t know where they found it.
15 Q. Exactly. You just don’t know if the hair
16 found at the crime --
17 A. I don’t know if they found that it was his.
18 Q. Exactly. And that’s my point exactly. You
19 just don’t know one way or the other whether
20 David Jacoby’s’ hair was found at the crime scene
21 or not, correct?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. Did you do the laundry at all on May 6th of
24 1993?
25 A. No, I did not.

Page 373
1 Q. Let me turn your attention back to Deposition
2 Exhibit No. 12, the second journal, and I point
3 your attention to Hobbs 1033, I think the last
4 page actually of that journal, 1033.
5 There’s an entry that I’ve highlighted. I’m
6 going to read it to you, and tell me if I read it
7 correctly. 5/19/07, Saturday went to see Ronald
8 Lax, 707 Main Street office, only to find out
9 from Ron that my DNA was found at the crime scene
10 in the form of a hair strand of mine found in the
11 knots that tied Michael Moore’s shoestrings in
12 the knot themselves. Did I read that correctly?
13 A. Correct.
14 Q. Is it true, that on May 19, 2007, you went to
15 meet with Ronald Lax?
16 A. Yes.
17 Q. And that is when he first informed you about
18 the DNA evidence, correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And when you wrote your entry in your journal
21 on May 19 of 2007 about that meeting with Ronald
22 Lax, you didn’t make any statements about how it
23 was impossible that your hair would be in the
24 ligature, did you?
25 A. No. I don’t see it there.

Page 374
1 Q. In fact, the way you’ve written it, you
2 accept the fact that your hair was found at the
3 crime scene in the knots themselves, correct?
4 A. I ain’t going to say I accept it. I wrote it
5 like this.
6 Q. And when you wrote it, you didn’t contest
7 whether that hair was yours or not, did you?
8 A. I didn’t believe him. I didn’t believe Ron
9 Lax.
10 Q. You didn’t make any note in your journal that
11 you didn’t believe Ron Lax, did you?
12 A. There may be some in there somewhere.
13 Q. On that entry of May 19, 2007 --
14 A. Not on that one.
15 Q. Let me finish my question. I’m sorry. On
16 May 19, 2007, you did not make any notation that
17 you did not believe Ronald Lax, correct?
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. And you did not make any notation that you
20 did not believe that your hair was found in the
21 ligature of Michael Moore’s shoestring, correct?
22 A. Okay.
23 Q. And Ronald Lax is an investigator for the
24 West Memphis Three defense team; is that correct?
25 A. Correct.

Page 375
1 Q. And how many times did you meet with Ron Lax?
2 A. Two or three.
3 Q. And --
4 A. Maybe just two, maybe just one. I’m not
5 sure.
6 Q. Fair enough. And what years were those?
7 A. This.
8 Q. 2007?
9 A. ’07.
10 Q. And why did you --
11 A. Seems like -- there was another time. Hang
12 on. There was another time he come to my home,
13 and that’s when -- that was twice so far.
14 Q. So at least twice?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. Maybe three times?
17 A. It’s possible.
18 Q. And all those visits with Ron Lax were in
19 2007?
20 A. Correct.
21 Q. And you voluntarily spoke to Ron Lax?
22 A. Correct.
23 Q. And why did you agree to voluntarily speak to
24 Ron Lax in 2007?
25 A. I’ll tell you like I told Brent Davis. Brent

Page 376
1 is the district prosecuting attorney. I wanted
2 to meet what kind of person that would try to get
3 some killers out of prison.
4 Q. And that explains meeting him the first time.
5 Why would you meet him a second and third time?
6 A. Exactly. Same reason. I wanted to see what
7 they was up to and what was on their mind.
8 Q. Did you want to find out what evidence they
9 had?
10 A. I didn’t know the evidence. I just wanted --
11 they wouldn’t -- if you’ll notice, they wouldn’t
12 quit calling my phone.
13 Q. There are other West Memphis Three or Damien
14 Echols investigators that you met with besides
15 Ron Lax, correct?
16 A. Yeah. Lori or Rachel somebody.
17 Q. There’s a Rachel Geyser?
18 A. Geyser.
19 Q. And did you meet with John Douglas?
20 A. John Douglas.
21 Q. He’s a criminal profiler?
22 A. Yeah.
23 Q. How many times did you meet with Rachel
24 Geyser?
25 A. Once or twice.

Page 377
1 Q. And how many times did you meet with John
2 Douglas?
3 A. Once or twice. Twice.
4 Q. And what years were those meetings?
5 A. ’07.
6 Q. And why did you met with those investigators
7 and profilers?
8 A. To see what they wanted.
9 Q. And see what they knew?
10 A. Or what they wanted.
11 Q. Did you want to get your version of the
12 events out to them as well?
13 A. No. I wanted to see what they wanted. I was
14 going to tell them, and I did, that I wanted to
15 see what they was up to.
16 Q. Any other reason besides wanting to see what
17 the West Memphis Three investigators were up to
18 that you agreed to meet with Ron Lax, John
19 Douglas, Rachel Geyser?
20 A. Not really.
21 Q. Let me show you what I’m going to mark as
22 Deposition Exhibit No. 16, and I’ll represent to
23 you that that is a copy of the police file down
24 at the West Memphis Police Department regarding
25 their interview of you in June of 2007. Have you

Page 378
1 ever seen these documents before ?
2 (Deposition Exhibit No. 16 was
3 marked.)
4 A. Not really. They might have done this over
5 the phone.
6 Q. On the third page in this exhibit, there
7 begins a transcript of the police interview of
8 you by the West Memphis Police Department on June
9 21st of 2007. Have you seen a transcript of that
10 police interview by you -- of you?
11 A. Yeah, I think.
12 Q. And certainly when you were speaking to the
13 police they had read you your rights; is that
14 correct?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did they have you sign any rights form? I
17 believe it’s Page 2 here. Is that a true and
18 correct copy of your signature?
19 A. Yeah.
20 Q. Are they --
21 A. Rights form. I don’t know what that is.
22 Q. Down at the bottom in the last paragraph, I
23 have read this form and or had it read to me, and
24 I understand my rights listed above. I agree to
25 appear and cooperate with law enforcement

Page 379
1 authorities at the above noted place. Did they
2 tell you anything about your rights?
3 A. No. I’ve never had my rights -- I mean, they
4 may have said you have a right with an attorney,
5 but not criminal like you’re trying to make it
6 sound.
7 Q. Certainly -- and I’m not trying to
8 characterize it. I’m just trying to find out
9 what happened. Certainly, though, when you were
10 speaking to the police on June 21st, 2007, as
11 reflected in this transcript that is in Exhibit
12 16, you were being honest and truthful with the
13 officers?
14 A. Try to be.
15 Q. And you were attempting to give your best
16 recollection of the facts?
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. Related to the murders and the events
19 surrounding the murders, correct?
20 A. All right.
21 Q. I’m asking you. I’m not just asking you to
22 agree with me. Is that -- is that a correct
23 statement?
24 A. It is.
25 Q. In January of 2008 you filed a grievance

Page 380
1 against one of the West Memphis Three lawyers,
2 Dennis Riordan; is that correct?
3 A. Yes, ma’am.
4 Q. And I’m going to mark this document as
5 Deposition Exhibit No. 17, and my question to you
6 will be, is this a true and correct copy of that
7 complaint?
8 (Deposition Exhibit No. 17 was
9 marked.)
10 A. The Board of Professional Conduct, Office of
11 Professional, it is.
12 Q. And beginning on Page 2 of Deposition Exhibit
13 No. 17, that is your handwriting?
14 A. It is.
15 Q. And everything you stated in Deposition
16 Exhibit No. 17 is also true and correct?
17 A. It is.
18 Q. And the essence of this grievance form is
19 that you’re complaining that Mr. Riordan is
20 wrongfully damaging your name because he is
21 suggesting you were involved in the murders; is
22 that correct?
23 A. Correct. One of the ones.
24 Q. And do you have any understanding of what
25 happened at the Supreme Court of Arkansas Office

Page 381
1 of Professional Conduct with regard to this
2 grievance?
3 A. Yeah. They referred me to a civil attorney.
4 Q. And do you recall which attorney they
5 referred you to?
6 A. Well, no. They told me to seek advice of a
7 civil attorney.
8 Q. And basically dismissed your grievance?
9 A. Well, so far. They said it was -- they
10 don’t -- they sent me a letter about it, but I
11 forget what they say.
12 Q. Did you understand, when you spoke to the
13 various West Memphis Three investigators, that
14 they were recording you?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did you understand --
17 A. Because I asked them at one point, and they
18 said no.
19 Q. Did you understand that they were going to
20 use your statements, if they could, to help the
21 West Memphis Three get out of jail?
22 A. No, I did not know that.
23 Q. What did you think the West Memphis Three
24 investigators would do with the information you
25 gave them?

Page 382
1 A. I didn’t really give them nothing that I
2 didn’t know. I wasn’t expecting for them to turn
3 around and slap me upside the head with it.
4 Q. Did you answer questions that they asked you?
5 A. Some.
6 Q. Did you refuse to answer questions?
7 A. Sure.
8 Q. Do you recall what you refused to answer?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Prior to May 5th of 1993, had you ever been
11 to the Robin Hood Hills woods before?
12 A. No.
13 Q. And you understand what I’m talking about
14 when I say the Robin Hood Hills woods?
15 A. Right.
16 Q. Can you describe for the jury what the Robin
17 Hood Hills woods was?
18 A. It’s a three-acre patch of woods in West
19 Memphis that was growed up, and it had a 10-mile
20 bayou run through it.
21 Q. Was it sometimes referred to as the Blue
22 Beacon woods or just Robin Hood Hills woods?
23 A. I don’t know.
24 Q. Did you know anyone working at the Blue
25 Beacon in 1993?

Page 383
1 A. No.
2 Q. What was going on in your life in May of
3 1993?
4 A. Just a family man.
5 Q. Were you having any problem in your marriage?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Had you and Pam separated before 1993, May
8 5th?
9 A. I don’t think. Well, I thing we had, yeah.
10 Q. Had there been discussions of divorce?
11 A. I’m not sure.
12 Q. Do you know what Stevie’s position was on
13 whether he wanted you and his mom, Pam Hobbs, to
14 stay together?
15 A. Stevie was a little dude.
16 Q. I know. He was eight years old, wasn’t he?
17 A. At the time of the murders. He was a
18 year-and-a-half old when we got married.
19 Q. And I’m asking, in May of 1993, whether
20 Stevie had an opinion on whether he wanted you
21 and his mom, Pam Hobbs, to stay together?
22 A. I don’t know that. I don’t know that.
23 Q. Did you ever discuss that with Stevie?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you have a good relationship with Amanda

Page 384
1 and Pam and Stevie in May of 1993?
2 A. Sure.
3 Q. Did you have a good relationship with your
4 in-laws in May of 1993?
5 A. I did.
6 Q. What about with your own family?
7 A. Of course.
8 Q. Did you have any health problems then?
9 A. No.
10 Q. Any job problems?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Financial problems?
13 A. No.
14 Q. Any drug or alcohol problems?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Any mental health issues?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Do you recall if you changed clothes on May
19 5th of 1993 when you came home from work?
20 A. Oh, I’m sure I did.
21 Q. And do you recall --
22 A. I had to -- I wore work uniforms.
23 Q. Do you recall what you changed into from the
24 work uniform?
25 A. No.

Page 385
1 Q. That change of -- out of your uniform would
2 have occurred between 4:00 and 4:30 p.m.?
3 A. Or after I got home.
4 Q. And I’m sorry. I was -- I was assuming that
5 you were home by 4:00 or 4:30. What time did you
6 get hom?
7 A. I get home before that.
8 Q. What time?
9 A. Roughly 3:00 to 4:00, somewhere in there.
10 Q. And so once you got home, you would have
11 changed out of your uniform?
12 A. Sure.
13 Q. And then I believe you testified, that at
14 some point after you picked Pam up from work,
15 after 9:00 p.m. on May 5th, 1993, you believe you
16 changed clothes again?
17 A. Well, I know Pam, we took her by the house.
18 I’m not sure if I did.
19 Q. So as you sit here today, you do not know one
20 way or the other whether you changed clothes
21 again on --
22 A. Right.
23 Q. -- May 5th of 1993 after you changed clothes
24 out of your uniform sometime between, say, 3:00
25 or 4:00 p.m. on May 5th?

Page 386
1 A. Depends on what I would have had on.
2 Q. I understand. And I don’t want you to guess
3 and I don’t want you to speculate.
4 A. Right.
5 Q. As you sit here right now, you know you
6 changed clothes once to get out of your uniform,
7 correct?
8 A. Correct. Correct.
9 Q. You don’t know whether you changed clothes
10 again the rest of that night?
11 A. I’m not sure about that.
12 Q. But you think you did?
13 A. I think I did.
14 Q. Do you think you changed clothes more than
15 one time after getting out of your uniform or
16 just the once?
17 A. The time out of my uniform, depends on what I
18 put on after I changed the first time.
19 Q. And I just want to try to summarize what I
20 think you’re saying, which is, you know you
21 changed out of your uniform between 3:00 and 4:00
22 p.m. on May 5th?
23 A. Okay.
24 Q. You believe you changed one more time
25 depending --

Page 387
1 A. I’m not sure.
2 Q. You’re not sure?
3 A. This is 16 years later.
4 Q. It’s possible?
5 A. It’s possible.
6 Q. Is it possible you changed more than once?
7 A. If I did the second time, it would be
8 possible.
9 Q. But you’d just be guessing at that point?
10 A. Correct.
11 Q. And as you sit here today -- not to put too
12 fine a point on it -- you have no idea whether
13 you changed clothes again after you got out of
14 your uniform on May 5th of 1993?
15 A. Sounds good. That’s correct.
16 Q. But you do recall you were not carrying a
17 knife that night?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. And you do recall that you were not carrying
20 a gun?
21 A. Right.
22 Q. Do you recall whether you had the gun, the
23 .357 Magnum, or any other gun, in your car on the
24 night of May 5th, 1993?
25 A. I probably didn’t even own it at that time.

Page 388
1 Q. I believe you previously testified that you
2 thought you had a .357, a .9 millimeter and a .12
3 millimeter. Did you have any of those guns on
4 May 5th of 1993?
5 A. I don’t remember. I don’t remember when I
6 bought them. I remember when me and Pam got
7 married in ’80 -- back in the eighties I had two
8 or three guns, but it seemed like I got rid of
9 them, then I -- seems like I bought the .357 in
10 ’93, ’94, something like that.
11 Q. Your best recollection, as you sit here
12 today -- and I understand it’s been a long time,
13 but we’re doing the best we can with the passage
14 of time. As you sit here today, do you recall
15 whether you owned any gun on May 5th of 1993?
16 A. Honestly I might say no.
17 Q. Just no idea one way or the other?
18 A. Right.
19 Q. It’s possible?
20 A. It’s possible.
21 Q. It’s possible you didn’t?
22 A. I don’t really remember.
23 Q. When you met Mark Byers at Dana Moore’s house
24 on May 5th, 1993, that was the first time you had
25 ever met him?

Page 389
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And Mark Byers is Christopher Byers’ dad?
3 A. Okay.
4 Q. Is that correct?
5 A. Right. I guess.
6 Q. You don’t know if that’s true or not?
7 A. Well, there was speculation that she was
8 married to somebody --
9 Q. Let me cut to the chase. I don’t want to get
10 off on a --
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Your understanding was that Mark Byers was
13 living with -- at least living with Christopher
14 Byers’ mother?
15 A. Yeah. Was his dad, as I knew it.
16 Q. Fair enough. And that was the first time --
17 at Dana Moore’s house was the first time you had
18 ever met Mark Byers?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And he came walking up to Dana Moore’s house
21 about the time that you arrived at Dana Moore’s
22 house?
23 A. A little bit after.
24 Q. Five minutes after?
25 A. Okay.

Page 390
1 Q. Not more than that?
2 A. All right.
3 Q. Is that right?
4 A. Something like that.
5 Q. From 5:00 p.m. on May 5, 1993, when you
6 dropped Pam off at work, until sometime around
7 9:00 p.m. when you went to pick Pam up at work at
8 Catfish Island on May 5th of 1993, did you ever
9 call her to tell her that Stevie was missing?
10 A. No.
11 Q. Why not?
12 A. She knew.
13 Q. Why not?
14 A. She already knew.
15 Q. Have you ever told anyone, that during that
16 time period, from 5:00 p.m. to 9:00 p.m. on May
17 5th of 1993, you called Pam to tell her that
18 Stevie was at least still missing?
19 A. No, because I never done that.
20 Q. Did you hear any gunshots at any point while
21 you were searching for Stevie?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Have you ever told anyone that you heard
24 gunshots?
25 A. No.

Page 391
1 Q. Which of your family members attended
2 Stevie’s funeral? And I’m talking about your
3 side of the family now.
4 A. My old brother, my younger brother, my mother
5 and my dad.
6 Q. So that’s Joe, Jr., and what’s the other
7 brother?
8 A. Mike.
9 Q. Mike, they were both at the funeral?
10 A. And my cousin Tim, my mother and my dad.
11 Q. Prior to Stevie’s funeral, when was the last
12 time you had seen your mother?
13 A. I don’t remember.
14 Q. How frequently in 1993 were you seeing your
15 mom?
16 A. I don’t remember. They don’t live but over
17 them hills. I can go over there.
18 Q. Would you see her once a year?
19 A. Or more.
20 Q. Back in 1993 do you think you saw your mother
21 more than once a year?
22 A. I don’t -- I wouldn’t -- I’d be speculating.
23 Q. From 1990 to the death of Stevie, do you
24 think your saw your mother at all during that
25 time period?

Page 392
1 A. From 1993?
2 Q. Sorry. From January 1 of 1990 through to
3 1993?
4 A. For May 1st --
5 Q. Sorry. We’re talking over each other. We’ve
6 messed ourselves up.
7 A. That’s January 1st --
8 Q. From January 1st of 1990?
9 A. Oh, ’90.
10 Q. Of 1990.
11 A. Of course.
12 Q. How many times do you think you saw her in
13 that time period?
14 A. I don’t know. I wouldn’t even guess.
15 Q. More than 10 times?
16 A. I’m not going to answer that.
17 Q. More than five times?
18 A. I don’t know.
19 Q. Are you sure you saw her at all during that
20 time period?
21 A. Of course I had.
22 Q. Did Pam ever see her during that time period?
23 A. I would imagine.
24 Q. But you don’t know?
25 A. No. If we went over there, Pam would go with

Page 393
1 us.
2 Q. We’ve talked about the names of people that
3 can provide an alibi for you on May 5th and May
4 6th, people that saw you that night. Are there
5 any other facts, that you’re aware of, that would
6 demonstrate that you were not involved in the
7 murders, other than these witnesses?
8 A. I don’t know where you get that from.
9 Q. I’m just asking. Are there any other facts
10 that you’re aware of that would demonstrate your
11 innocence?
12 A. Going to -- we heard that they were at gas
13 stations. We’d go there and you’re on film.
14 Q. Do you -- do you recall what gas stations?
15 A. Sure.
16 Q. Which ones?
17 A. Flash Markets, they’re in West Memphis. We’d
18 go -- people would tell us -- and Texaco, there’s
19 a Texaco gas station, and they got cameras out
20 there.
21 Q. Okay. Video cameras --
22 A. At the police department, they got cameras
23 and audios there.
24 Q. Okay. So there’s video cameras at the police
25 station and video cameras at the various gas

Page 394
1 stations that you stopped by. Any other facts
2 that you would use to prove that you were
3 innocent and were not involved in the murders?
4 MR. THOMAS: Objection, to the
5 extent it calls for a legal conclusion.
6 Q. And I’m just asking you, as Terry Hobbs, man
7 on the street. You --
8 A. I don’t know where you get that question
9 from.
10 Q. You’ve brought this suit claiming that you’ve
11 been accused of murder, and I’m entitled to find
12 out what facts you would use to demonstrate that
13 you were not involved in the murders. And we’ve
14 talked about alibi witnesses --
15 A. Talk to the police department, they’ll help
16 you out.
17 Q. Talked about -- let me just walk through what
18 we’ve got. We talked about the various
19 witnesses, we’ve talked about the videotape at
20 the police department, we’ve talked about the
21 videotape at the gas stations. And now you’ve
22 additionally said that I could talk to the police
23 department, they’ll tell me, I assume, that
24 you’re not a suspect. That’s what the paper
25 says.

Page 395
1 Are there any other facts that you have that
2 would demonstrate that you were not involved in
3 the murders, other than what I’ve just listed?
4 A. Oh, I’m sure there are.
5 Q. Can you think of any of them as you sit here
6 today?
7 A. No. I’m not even going to try.
8 Q. Did the West Memphis Police Department take
9 you fingerprints in 1993 when you and Pam went
10 down to talk to the officers?
11 A. I’m not sure.
12 Q. Did they give you a lie detector test?
13 A. I don’t think so.
14 Q. Have you ever been given a lie detector test
15 by anyone regarding the events on the night of
16 May 5th of 1993?
17 A. I don’t believe so.
18 Q. Would you agree to take a lie detector test
19 provided by -- let me finish the question --
20 provided it was by a reputable polygraph
21 operator?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Why not?
24 A. Why should I?
25 Q. Well, you seem so intent on wanting the world

Page 396
1 to know that you were not involved in those
2 murders, and step one of that might be taking a
3 lie detector test.
4 A. Step one might be call the police.
5 Q. I -- let’s go to step two then. Step two --
6 A. Step two, call the prosecutor.
7 Q. Let me finish -- let me finish my question.
8 I’m sorry. And you’re making -- you’re making --
9 I’m duly noting what you’re saying. Step one,
10 call the police; they don’t consider you a
11 suspect. Step two, call the prosecutor. The
12 prosecutor didn’t prosecute you. I hear what
13 you’re saying. But is there any reason, that
14 just to be clear and just to let the world know,
15 this world that has such concerns and has caused
16 you so much pain, thinking that you might have
17 been involved in those murders, is there any
18 other reason, other than what you’ve told me, why
19 you wouldn’t agree to have a lie detector test to
20 demonstrate you weren’t involved in the murders?
21 A. I don’t need to prove myself.
22 Q. Any other reasons besides that?
23 A. No.
24 Q. But you’re adamant, you’re sure that would
25 not agree to take a lie detector test? As you

1 sit here today --
2 A. Huh-uh.
3 Q. -- you’re sure about that?
4 A. Uh-huh.
5 Q. You’re sure?
6 A. I don’t have to.
7 Q. Right.
8 A. I ain’t done nothing wrong.
9 Q. I understand and I want to move on. I just
10 want to not beat a dead horse, I just want to
11 make clear. As you sit here today, you’re
12 absolutely sure that you refuse to take a lie
13 detector test, correct?
14 A. I am
15 Q. That’s correct.
16 A. Correct.
17 Q. You’re not going to take it?
18 A. I’m not.
19 Q. Other than the Dimension Films interview, the
20 journals, the Answer to Supplemental --
21 Supplemental Interrogatory No. 15, are you aware
22 of any other accounts by you of the events of the
23 night of May 5th of 1993?
24 A. See, I know I have this. I have this.
25 Q. Right.

Page 398
1 A. And probably some of this, if that’s mine.
2 Q. Right. And we’ve got -- sorry, I left one
3 out. The West Memphis Police Department
4 interview?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. Are there any other --
7 A. Not that I know of.
8 Q. -- versions of your account, as far as you
9 know?
10 A. Not that I can recollect.
11 Q. No other interviews with other film
12 companies, publishing companies, book writers?
13 A. No, not to my knowledge.
14 Q. You write in your journal, and I can give you
15 page and line on these things if you ever want,
16 as we talk through this, to actually look at what
17 you wrote. Okay. But you wrote in your journal,
18 at times one thinks, could we really handle
19 knowing what really did happen, and you’re
20 referring to the murders. And you answer,
21 probably not?
22 A. Right.
23 Q. What did you mean by that entry?
24 A. Could you handle -- could we as parents
25 handle knowing what really happened out there,

Page 399
1 probably not.
2 Q. And why do you -- and why do you say probably
3 not?
4 A. Because I went down and looked at our son and
5 seen what he looked like. I would not want to
6 know how that happened.
7 Q. In your journals when you talk about
8 searching the night of May 5th in the woods, and
9 you get to a scary part of the woods where you
10 felt a real presence of evil; do you recall that
11 happening?
12 A. I do recall that.
13 Q. Do you recall the journal entries about that.
14 Just generally?
15 A. Yes, I do.
16 Q. In two different journal entries you state
17 that -- I’ll read it to you. When I caught up to
18 David and Jackie, I couldn’t even talk about what
19 happened. And then in the other entry you said,
20 as I finally walked out of there and caught up
21 with Jackie, Sr. and David, I could not even talk
22 about it for I did not think they would believe
23 me. Does that refresh your recollection about
24 whether you told anybody on the night of May 5th
25 or May 6th that you felt this presence of evil in

Page 400
1 an area of the woods?
2 A. Seemed like I remember that.
3 Q. Okay. So you did not tell anybody about
4 feeling the presence of evil in the woods on the
5 night of May 5th of 1993, correct?
6 A. I’m not sure.
7 Q. As you sit here today, you can’t recall?
8 A. Right.
9 Q. But if your journal said you didn’t tell
10 anybody, that’s probably true, correct?
11 A. Probably.
12 Q. Why wouldn’t you tell someone if you felt
13 that there was an area of the woods that had a
14 particular scary aspect or that you had felt the
15 presence of evil?
16 A. Because that’s just something men don’t do,
17 walking around saying, I got scared.
18 Q. In fact, that area you claim was the area
19 where the bodies of the three little boys,
20 including Stevie, were ultimately found, correct?
21 A. No. No.
22 Q. How far away was it?
23 A. I walked down this little path about 10, 15
24 feet. I don’t know how much further down that
25 path the boys’ bodies was, but it was down there

Page 401
1 somewhere.
2 Q. Did you hear any tree limbs falling while you
3 were in the woods looking?
4 A. I heard some break. Me and Pam was together
5 when this happened.
6 Q. Do you recall telling anyone that the three
7 little boys, Stevie, Chris and Michael, put up a
8 good fight against their assailants?
9 A. Do I recall telling that to somebody?
10 Q. Yes.
11 A. Only if we might have said we hope that they
12 did.
13 Q. Do you recall telling anyone that you knew
14 that the boys, the little boys had put up a good
15 fight?
16 A. No -- well, seemed like Gary Gitchell told us
17 that they, you know, might have put up a fight.
18 Q. Might or did?
19 A. Did.
20 Q. And do you have any understanding on what
21 Gary Gitchell would have based that statement on?
22 A. Stuff under fingernails, and I think one of
23 them was supposed to had something under their
24 fingernails DNA or something.
25 Q. Let me read you an entry from Journal 2,

Page 402
1 Hobbs 1010 through 1011. I also remember while
2 I, Terry, was trying to keep my job at the ice
3 cream company, all of my customers were so nice I
4 could not handle it. I would walk in to do my
5 job, and I did not know how many of my customers
6 would hug me, and some of them would even start
7 to cry. This seemed to make me nervous. As nice
8 as my customers were and as nice as all of the
9 employees of Memphis Ice Cream Company were,
10 since they did not -- they did not know what
11 being overly nice to me was doing to me. As long
12 as I’ve been at the ice cream and had the same
13 customers for years, this kind of being nice to
14 me was making my mind seem like it was frying.
15 Do you recall writing that in your journal?
16 A. I remember something about that.
17 Q. Okay. Why did customers being nice to you
18 about the murders make your mind seem like it was
19 frying?
20 A. Because they was just -- everywhere I go -- I
21 had 110 customers that I called on on a weekly
22 basis, and these people liked me, and then when
23 this happened, it’s just like they wanted me to
24 be their family. You know, it’s just like they
25 overliked me.

Page 403
1 Q. And that made you extremely uncomfortable?
2 A. I didn’t know how to handle that.
3 Q. It made your mind seem like it was frying?
4 A. I didn’t know how to handle that.
5 Q. And to get away from that, you took a leave
6 of absence for three or four months; is that
7 correct?
8 A. I did.
9 Q. You did backhand Pam Hobbs the night that you
10 ended up shooting her brother, correct?
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Is that correct?
13 A. Right.
14 Q. Is that funny?
15 A. Well, you get tired of talking about it after
16 a while.
17 Q. I understand, but I just need for the record
18 for you to state under oath that you did in
19 fact --
20 A. I did.
21 Q. -- backhand Pam Hobbs the night you shot her
22 brother?
23 A. I did.
24 Q. That’s correct?
25 A. Correct.

Page 404
1 Q. Why do you think the search kept focusing on
2 Robin Hood Hills the night of May 5th and the
3 morning of May 6th?
4 A. Well, we -- that was the last place that
5 people told us they had seen them kids go.
6 Q. Did Dawn Moore tell you that she saw the kids
7 going to Robin Hood Hills?
8 A. I don’t think so.
9 Q. If you wrote in your journal, I guess we will
10 never know why the search kept focusing on Robin
11 Hood woods, why would you write that?
12 A. That’s why.
13 Q. We know why the search focused on Robin Hood
14 Hills, correct?
15 A. Okay.
16 Q. I mean, I’m right, right? We know that the
17 search focused on Robin Hood Hills, because that
18 was the last place they were seen?
19 A. Right.
20 Q. So why would you write in your journal, I
21 guess we will never know why the search kept
22 focusing on Robin Hood woods?
23 A. I don’t know why.
24 Q. At one place in your journal you state that
25 you and family members began to do your own

Page 405
1 investigation. There were times when some of us
2 would drive to West Memphis and just drive around
3 trying to investigate ourselves. Do you recall
4 writing that in your journal?
5 A. Sure.
6 Q. What sort of investigation did you do
7 yourself?
8 A. This is a good one. Me and Pam, Pam wanted
9 to go down to West Memphis call ourself
10 investigating what happened to her little boy.
11 So we get down there, and she goes -- wants to go
12 by a Holy Cross Episcopal church, and we went
13 there. Well, the preacher is standing out front
14 of the church. We go up there and, you know,
15 talk to him. And Pam says, can I go back here
16 and pay my regards to my son, and he said sure.
17 We get back there, she tells me, I’m
18 investigating this church.
19 Q. Let me stop you for just a second. I
20 appreciate what you’re saying, and it was in
21 answer to my question, but I want to be more
22 specific, and maybe my question wasn’t clear.
23 What did you do? You wrote in your journal
24 that you would go investigate. Were you
25 referring to anything other than the time that

Page 406
1 you and Pam Hobbs went to investigate at the
2 church?
3 A. Was I referring to, yeah, because I never
4 went and investigated. I would take Pam.
5 Q. Fair enough. And other than going to the
6 church to investigate, did you take Pam anywhere
7 else to investigate the murders?
8 A. Just drive around West Memphis.
9 Q. And that was basically to placate Pam?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. You knew you were not, quote, investigating
12 the murders?
13 A. Right. We knew that.
14 Q. Let me direct your attention in Deposition
15 Exhibit No. 13 to the highlighted portion of that
16 journal entry, and it is on Page 1063. I’m going
17 to start just a little bit before the highlighted
18 portion.
19 Before I left their home, her brother comes
20 out in the front yard and says to me, Terry, if
21 it was not for my dad, I would kill you. And
22 this is in your handwriting. What he didn’t
23 know, I did have a Smith and Wesson .44 Magnum
24 pistol that was loaded in the back of my pants
25 under my shirt, for I knew he had wanted to start

Page 407
1 something. Also, I knew I couldn’t fight with
2 him. Also, I knew I had not done anything to
3 anyone and, no, no one was going to kill me, like
4 I was told, with Mr. Smith having something to
5 say about it. Did I read that entry correctly?
6 A. Sure.
7 Q. And when you say Mr. Smith, you’re referring
8 to your Smith and Wesson .44 Magnum, correct?
9 A. Correct.
10 Q. And this entry relates to the evening that
11 you shot Jackie Hicks, Sr., Pam’s brother?
12 A. No.
13 Q. What does this relate to?
14 A. When I went to see my daughter, he would
15 threaten to kill me.
16 Q. So we’re back to talking about Jackie Hicks,
17 Jr.?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. On this occasion, do you have any
20 recollection of when specifically this was?
21 A. No, but it was one time when we were
22 separated, me and Pam, and I was living in Hardy,
23 Arkansas and she was living in Blytheville.
24 Q. And it was sometime between Stevie’s death
25 and the time you actually shot Jackie Hicks, Jr.,

Page 408
1 correct?
2 A. Correct.
3 Q. And you carried your Smith and Wesson with
4 you because you were worried that Jackie Hicks
5 was going to beat you up, correct?
6 A. No. He would threaten, I’m going to kill
7 you.
8 Q. And because he had threatened you, you packed
9 your gun?
10 A. Exactly.
11 Q. And you were of the mindset that he was not
12 going to hurt you without having to deal with
13 your gun; isn’t that fair?
14 A. Exactly.
15 Q. I want to nail down quickly just a few points
16 regarding May 5th. In -- and I’ll represent to
17 you -- and I’ve got page numbers here if you want
18 to look at any of the journal entries or anything
19 else. But in the Dimension Films interview --
20 well, let me back up.
21 In your journal in two different locations
22 and with the West Memphis Police Department and
23 in your interrogatory responses, you say you
24 spoke to Dawn Moore on the way to taking Pam to
25 work?

Page 409
1 A. Her daughter. That’s the daughter.
2 Q. Yes. Did you speak to Dawn Moore on the way
3 to taking Pam to work?
4 A. Yeah, Pam did. We did.
5 Q. Okay. And what was your conversation?
6 A. The conversation was, did we -- or is Michael
7 and Chris here.
8 Q. And what did she say?
9 A. Probably not. Well, they wasn’t there, so
10 I’m sure it was a no answer.
11 Q. Here’s where I’m confused. In the Dimension
12 Films interview you say that no one was home when
13 you and Pam stopped by the Moore’s house on the
14 way to take Pam to work around 5:00 p.m. on May
15 5th. In the journals and with the West Memphis
16 Police Department and in your interrogatory
17 responses, you say that Dawn Moore, the daughter,
18 was home and that you spoke to her.
19 A. Dawn was there.
20 Q. Let me stop for a second. Was there anybody
21 home at the Moores -- you’re under oath now.
22 Time to absolutely recollect the best you can and
23 tell the truth, give your best testimony. Was
24 there anyone home at the Moores as you and Pam
25 and Amanda stop by the Moores on the way to

Page 410
taking Pam to work on May 5th of 1993 at
2 approximately 5:00 p.m.?
3 A. Dawn Moore.
4 Q. And what did she tell you?
5 A. I don’t remember.
6 Q. Did Dawn Moore tell you that she had seen
7 Michael and Stevie riding their bikes?
8 A. Seemed like that I’ve heard that somewhere.
9 Q. I’m not asking you whether you heard that
10 somewhere or not. I’m asking you if you
11 recollect Dawn Moore telling you anything about
12 seeing Stevie and Michael riding their bikes?
13 A. I don’t recollect that.
14 Q. Do you recollect her telling you where she
15 had last seen them?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Have you spoken to Dawn Moore since May 5th
18 of 1993?
19 A. I’m sure I have, but I don’t remember where.
20 Q. Have you spoken to Dawn Moore about the
21 events or the murders?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Since May 5th of 1993?
24 A. No.
25 MS. DAVIS: Okay. Let’s take a

Page 411
1 quick break so we can change tapes.
2 VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re going off
3 record for a tape change at 5:35 p.m.
4 (A break was taken.)
5 (Back on the record.)
6 VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re back on the
7 record after a tape change at 5:49 p.m.
8 Q. (By Ms. Davis) Mr. Hobbs, in your journal,
9 Exhibit 11 at Hobbs 954, you state, that after
10 dropping Pam off from work, you go over to David
11 Jacoby’s house, and all that happens before you
12 ever see Dana Moore or Mark Byers. In the
13 Dimensions interview, in a different journal, No.
14 3, or Exhibit 13, and in the West Memphis Police
15 Department interview and the Supplemental
16 Interrogatory Responses, you do not have yourself
17 going to David Jacoby’s house before you meet
18 Dana Moore and Mark Byers. Which is the correct
19 version of the events?
20 A. You know, I don’t remember.
21 Q. As you sit here today, you have no idea --
22 A. This is 16 years ago.
23 Q. Fair enough. But you’ve written in your
24 journal two different ways.
25 A. Okay.

Page 412
1 Q. And as you sit here today, you have no idea
2 whether you went to David Jacoby’ before you --
3 A. Sounds fair.
4 Q. -- met with Dana Moore and Mark Byers?
5 A. I’m fine with that.
6 Q. Let me finish my question. As you sit here
7 today, you have no idea whether you went over to
8 David Jacoby’s before you met Dana Moore and Mark
9 Byers; is that correct?
10 A. Seemed like I had my daughter with me when I
11 met Mark -- no, seems like she wasn’t -- I don’t
12 remember.
13 Q. So just to clarify --
14 A. I’m going to leave it like I don’t remember.
15 Q. As you sit here today under oath, you have no
16 recollection of whether you went to David
17 Jacoby’s before you met Dana Moore and Mark Byers
18 on May 5th of 1993, correct?
19 A. Correct.
20 Q. And if David Jacoby testifies that you went
21 to his house and played guitars for about an hour
22 on May 5 of 1993, is your -- is it your testimony
23 that he is lying?
24 A. My testimony is I don’t know.
25 Q. It --

Page 413
1 A. I don’t remember.
2 Q. It is in fact possible, that on May 5th of
3 1993, after dropping Pam off at work, that you
4 went over to David Jacoby’s house and played
5 guitar for approximately an hour, correct?
6 A. I’m not going to say.
7 Q. It’s possible?
8 A. Okay.
9 Q. Well, I don’t want you to just agree. I’m
10 asking you a question.
11 A. I’m not agreeing. I don’t know.
12 Q. Well, fair enough. Let me -- let me phrase
13 it and you can tell me yes or no. Is it
14 possible, that on May 5th of 1993, after dropping
15 Pam off from work, you went to Dave Jacoby’s
16 house and played guitar?
17 A. It’s possible.
18 Q. Is it possible, that on May 5th of 1993,
19 after dropping Pam off at work around 5:00 p.m.,
20 that you played guitar at David Jacoby’s house
21 for up to an hour?
22 A. It’s possible.
23 Q. And, in fact, if David Jacoby testified that
24 you did stop by his house after dropping Pam off
25 at work after 5:00 p.m. on May 5th of 1993 and

 

Page 414
1 played guitar for an hour, you would not argue
2 with him, would you?
3 A. No. I don’t remember it, but I ain’t going
4 to argue with it.
5 Q. There are also several different versions
6 through the different journals, through your
7 Supplemental Interrogatories, through your West
8 Memphis Police Department interview regarding
9 what time you called the police to report Stevie
10 missing.
11 In certain of those accounts you say --
12 particularly the Dimension Films account -- you
13 say that you called the police between 5:00 and
14 5:30 to report Stevie missing, and that you did
15 that before you ever met Mark Byers. Do you
16 recall telling the Dimension Films people that?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Is that true?
19 A. I don’t know.
20 Q. Is it -- what is your recollection? Did you
21 call the police at 5:00 or 5:30?
22 A. I don’t remember.
23 Q. On May 5th of 1993?
24 A. I don’t remember.
25 Q. As you sit here today, using your best

Page 415
1 recollection and testifying under oath, you do
2 not recall one way or another whether you called
3 the police on May 5th, 1993 between 5:00 and
4 5:30?
5 A. Correct.
6 Q. But we know that you were trying to give your
7 best version of events to the Dimension Films
8 filmmakers. They had paid you for your story,
9 correct?
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. And if you told them that you had called the
12 police on May 5th of 1993 between 5:00 and 5:30,
13 would we be able to rely on that?
14 A. Whatever you want to do with it.
15 Q. No. It’s not -- it’s not a question of what
16 I want to do with it. It’s a question of which
17 is accurate. There are different versions.
18 A. I don’t remember what time we -- I know we
19 called them when Pam got off work.
20 Q. Do you know who called them?
21 A. No, I don’t.
22 Q. On May 5th of 1993, it --
23 A. Seems like it might have been Pam.
24 Q. On May 5th of 1993, there was a call from
25 Catfish Island to the police department reporting

Page 416
1 Stevie missing, correct?
2 A. Okay.
3 Q. Is that correct?
4 A. I guess.
5 Q. Do you recall whether anyone called the
6 police --
7 A. Pam called.
8 Q. Let me stop for a second. Do you recall
9 whether anyone called the police from Catfish
10 Island on May 5th of 1993 approximately 9:00 p.m.
11 to report your stepson missing?
12 A. Pam called, I believe.
13 Q. Could it have been you calling?
14 A. It’s possible.
15 Q. Okay. If the West Memphis Police Department
16 phone log reflects that at 9:19 Terry Hobbs
17 called to report Stevie missing, would you
18 quarrel with that entry?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Catfish Island, Terry Hobbs, missing
21 juvenile. Let me get this marked as Deposition
22 Exhibit No. 18. This is a copy of the West
23 Memphis Police Department lob, and I’ll show you
24 the entry.
25 (No Omissions)

Page 417
1 (Deposition Exhibit No. 18 was
2 marked.)
3 A. If that’s what’s on there, I’m fine with
4 that. It don’t matter to me.
5 Q. Okay. So now your best recollection is that
6 was in fact you that called the police?
7 A. If that’s what they have wrote down there.
8 Q. Then yes?
9 A. Okay.
10 Q. And I do not see in that log any call by you
11 to report Stevie missing prior to 9:19.
12 A. Okay.
13 Q. In fact, I don’t see a call from anybody to
14 report Stevie missing before 9:19 p.m. on May 5th
15 of 1993.
16 A. Okay.
17 Q. So does that lead you to believe that there
18 were no other phone calls made by you to the
19 police before 9:19 p.m. on May 5th of 1993?
20 A. Sounds fine with me.
21 Q. And I’m not just wanting what sounds fine
22 with you. I’m wanting what actually happened?
23 A. Well, you know, you’re talking 16 years ago.
24 Q. I understand that, but here’s what’s really
25 confusing. The different --

Page 418
1 A. Who does it confuse?
2 Q. The different accounts created by you through
3 your journals have different versions of events.
4 A. This is --
5 Q. Sometimes -- let me finish my question.
6 Sometimes you’re calling the police at 5:00 or
7 5:30, sometimes you’re telling Dana Moore to call
8 the police and report Stevie missing, and
9 sometimes Pam is calling the police at 9:19 p.m.,
10 but you know what never happens, in all your
11 versions Terry Hobbs never calls the police at
12 9:19 p.m., and my only question to you is what
13 occurred?
14 A. What is wrong with whatever occurred?
15 Q. Well, I don’t -- this is an important night
16 to you, wasn’t it, sir?
17 A. Yeah. And the phone call was made.
18 Q. And I’m just wondering, why something as
19 important as you calling the police escapes your
20 memory?
21 A. It happens.
22 Q. And let me ask you --
23 A. Can you remember every detail 16 years ago?
24 Q. Well, then let me ask you then the follow-up
25 question to that is, why then in your own

Page 419
1 journals are there different accounts?
2 A. What is wrong with that?
3 Q. It sounds -- it sounds like you’re not
4 telling the truth, to be candid, sir.
5 A. It’s just a book.
6 Q. It sounds like you’re not telling the truth
7 in the book. Were you trying to be honest in
8 your journals?
9 A. Well, you know never what happened. It’s
10 just a book.
11 Q. Is it a fiction book?
12 A. Well, I don’t know.
13 Q. It may end up being a fiction book?
14 A. I’m not sure. I hope it’s a true story.
15 Q. And not to put too fine a point on it, but
16 this major event is something that you just can’t
17 remember right now, and that is, how many times
18 you called the police, whether you called the
19 police and at what time you called the police; is
20 that correct, sir, as you sit here today?
21 A. Looks like I called them once.
22 Q. You’re willing to rely on Exhibit 18, the
23 West Memphis Police Department log, as opposed to
24 all of these other versions of your accounts of
25 the events?

Page 420
1 A. Why would I dispute that? It’s a log.
2 Q. So the answer to my question is, that’s
3 correct, you’re willing to rely on the West
4 Memphis Police Department log as opposed to all
5 these different versions of events created by
6 you?
7 A. Yeah.
8 Q. What time did you go over to Dana Moore’s
9 house and five minutes later meet Mark Byers?
10 Let me -- I’m trying to rush these things along.
11 I know we’re trying to get out of here.
12 A. I’m not sure of a time.
13 Q. In the Dimension Films interview, you say it
14 was six o’clock. With the West Memphis Police
15 Department you say it was 5:30 or 6:00. Do those
16 times sound approximately correct to you?
17 A. I don’t remember when it was.
18 Q. It could have been 8:00 p.m.?
19 A. I don’t remember.
20 Q. As you sit here today then, despite the
21 various accounts that are in all of your
22 journals, your Dimension Films interviews, your
23 interviews with the West Memphis Police
24 Department, as you sit here today, you simply
25 have no recollection of what time it was that you

Page 421
1 were over at Dana Moore’s house and met Mark
2 Byers; is that correct?
3 A. Correct.
4 Q. And --
5 A. I know I met him over there, but I don’t know
6 what time.
7 Q. And if we had to pick one of your versions of
8 the account, what would be the best one to use to
9 determine what time you believe you met Dana
10 Moore and Mark Byers over at Dana Moore’s house?
11 A. Whichever one you want to pick.
12 Q. In other words, we just will never know, will
13 we?
14 A. Well, ask Mark, he might remember. Dana
15 might remember.
16 Q. They do remember. I’m asking if you
17 remember, sir?
18 A. No, I don’t.
19 Q. And as you sit here today, not only do you
20 not remember what time you met Dana Moore and
21 Mark Byers over at Dana Moore’s house, you can’t
22 even point to which of your versions was a
23 truthful version; is that correct?
24 A. To me that’s just writings.
25 Q. You say they’re just writings, but when you

Page 422
1 wrote, weren’t you trying to be honest about
2 Stevie?
3 A. I was.
4 Q. Weren’t you trying to be honest about the
5 events?
6 A. I tried.
7 Q. So what is the explanation for why -- let me
8 finish my question. What was the -- what is the
9 explanation for why there are so many different
10 versions of the events?
11 A. I have no explanation. Do you know that
12 trauma might have played a role in it?
13 Q. Is that what you believe happened; do you
14 believe that these specifics that we’re going
15 through today, who called the police, what time
16 you called the police, what time you met Mark
17 Byers, whether you hung out with David Jacoby,
18 whether you went to David Jacoby’s house before
19 or after you met Mark Byers? Do you believe that
20 all of the confusion and inconsistencies in your
21 versions relates --
22 MR. THOMAS: Object to the
23 characterization --
24 MS. DAVIS: I’m not -- let me finish
25 my question.

Page 423
1 Q. All of those inaccuracies and
2 inconsistencies, that those relate from trauma;
3 is that your testimony?
4 A. Trauma, shock, all kind of things that go
5 along with it.
6 Q. That’s your --
7 MR. THOMAS: Maybe it’s for sitting
8 here for eight hours being hectored asking the
9 same questions.
10 MS. DAVIS: I object to the speaking
11 objection.
12 A. I’m tired and ready to go home.
13 Q. Sir, and I understand that. We’re going to
14 wrap up here real soon, but I just want your best
15 testimony. Your best testimony is, that the
16 reason for the inconsistencies in this ver --
17 these versions, regardless of when they were
18 created, is as a direct result of trauma and
19 stress; is that correct?
20 A. I cannot answer that.
21 Q. Were you alone at any time the night of May
22 5th, 1993 in Robin Hood Hills?
23 A. Not to my knowledge.
24 Q. Were you alone at any time the night of May
25 5th starting from, let’s say, 4:00 p.m. going to

1 6:00 a.m. on May 6th of 1993?
2 A. Not to my knowledge.
3 Q. Were you searching the Robin Hood Hills area
4 with David Jacoby at 6:00 p.m.?
5 A. I can’t answer that.
6 Q. If you previously listed in one of your
7 versions of the events that you were searching
8 the woods with David Jacoby -- in fact, if you
9 told that to the West Memphis Police Department
10 in 2007, from 6:00 to 6:30, would that be honest
11 and accurate -- an honest and accurate account?
12 A. I tried to be. If that’s what I told them.
13 Q. If that’s what you told the West Memphis
14 Police Department, then that’s your best
15 recollection of what you were doing between 6:00
16 and 6:30 is searching the woods with David
17 Jacoby?
18 A. Okay.
19 Q. Is that right?
20 A. If that’s what I told them.
21 Q. And if David Jacoby said that he was not
22 searching the woods with you between 6:00 p.m.
23 and 6:30, that he was not even with you between
24 6:00 p.m. and 6:30, what would your response to
25 that be?

Page 425
1 A. I probably wouldn’t have one. I don’t know.
2 I don’t try to make things up. If that’s where
3 you’re getting this from -- I don’t sit around
4 and try to make them up.
5 Q. In all of your versions of the events, and by
6 that I mean two different versions in the
7 journals, the Interrogatory Responses, the
8 Dimension Films interview, everything but the
9 West Memphis Police Department interview, you
10 never mention seeing a black bum on the morning
11 of May 6th of 1993, but in June of 2007, when
12 you’re being interviewed by the West Memphis
13 Police Department, you mentioned seeing a
14 black -- a black bum. Did you or did you not see
15 a black bum?
16 A. Me and Pam both seen this guy.
17 Q. If Pam says she never saw a black bum --
18 A. She seen him.
19 Q. -- she’s lying?
20 A. She ain’t going to tell you that.
21 Q. She’s lying?
22 A. She didn’t say that.
23 Q. When I talk to Pam, Pam is going to tell me
24 she saw a black bum?
25 A. Sure.

Page 426
1 Q. Why did you not take any action from May 5th
2 of 1993 until June 21st of 2007 to alert the
3 police or any law enforcement agency that you had
4 seen a black bum departing the Robin Hood Hills?
5 A. For what reason?
6 Q. To help find who committed the murder of your
7 son, sir?
8 A. They had three boys incarcerated.
9 Q. From May of 1993, May 5th of 1993?
10 A. Okay.
11 Q. Through to June of 1993, the police were
12 looking for suspects, were they not?
13 A. Yeah, that’s right.
14 Q. And in fact, the case was featured on
15 American’s Most Wanted because the police were
16 desperate for leads, correct?
17 A. Okay.
18 Q. And in that month period, you never went to a
19 law enforcement agent and said, I saw a black --
20 let me finish my question, sir -- I never saw a
21 black bum leaving the Robin Hood Hills area where
22 the bodies were ultimately found on the morning
23 of May 6th of 1993, did you?
24 A. Seemed like we did tell them that. I’m just
25 guessing.

Page 427
1 Q. You’re just guessing now, sir, aren’t you?
2 A. I don’t remember.
3 Q. And why then --
4 A. I don’t remember.
5 Q. -- did you never mention the black bum in
6 any of your versions of the accounts, sir?
7 A. I have no explanation for that, but we did
8 see a guy out there.
9 Q. But you didn’t tell anybody that could have
10 done anything about it, did you, sir?
11 A. At the time we seen the man, we didn’t know
12 that we had three dead boys.
13 Q. But you knew later that day -- you knew the
14 next day, the next week, didn’t you, sir?
15 A. Seems like it was brought up.
16 Q. And you didn’t mention the black bum in the
17 Dimension Films interview, in any of your
18 journals, and even as late as this lawsuit in
19 this Supplemental Interrogatory, did you, sir?
20 A. Well, you can ask Pam, because she was with
21 me when we seen him, and seems like there was a
22 few more people around.
23 Q. It’s your testimony that you did not see
24 Stevie Branch at all the day of May 5th of 1993,
25 correct?

Page 428
1 A. Correct.
2 Q. And if David Jacoby were to testify, that
3 when you came to his door after dropping Pam
4 Hobbs off at work at Catfish Island after 5 p.m.
5 on May 5th of 1993, and that he saw Stevie on his
6 bicycle and two other boys with him over your
7 shoulder out in the street, would he be lying?
8 A. I guess, because that didn’t happen.
9 Q. If David Jacoby told the West Memphis Police
10 Department that you told him on the night of May
11 5th of 1993 that you had seen Stevie and told
12 Stevie to be back before dark, would he be lying?
13 A. That didn’t happen.
14 Q. Did you have a working home phone on May 5th
15 of 1993?
16 A. Sure.
17 Q. But you didn’t use it to call the police on
18 May 5th of 1993; is that correct?
19 A. Call the police for what?
20 Q. That your son was missing, sir?
21 A. We went down to the police department. We
22 called them from Catfish Island.
23 Q. That’s not my question, sir.
24 A. No, I did not.
25 Q. You did not call the police at any point from

Page 429
1 your home phone, correct?
2 A. Correct. We called them from Catfish Island.
3 Q. Did you ever build Stevie a tree house or a
4 fort?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Did you go into the woods -- and I mean
7 actually into the woods -- to search for Stevie
8 before you picked Pam up at Catfish Island
9 approximately 9 o’clock?
10 A. We could go to the bayou.
11 Q. But you did not go into the woods?
12 A. Not really. It’s just a trail.
13 Q. Just to be specific, you did not go into the
14 Robin Hood Hill woods prior to picking Pam up
15 from work at approximately 9:00 p.m. on May 5th
16 of 1993; is that correct?
17 A. Well, if you knew what Robin Hood Hills woods
18 was, it’s just a three-acre piece of land that
19 had trees on it.
20 Q. And my question is real simple. Did you go
21 into it before you picked Pam up from work at
22 approximately 9:00 p.m. on May 5th of 1993?
23 A. If you walked on the ground you was in it.
24 So we did go down a path to the 10-mile bayou, so
25 that means you was in it.

Page 430
1 Q. Let me get this --
2 MS. DAVIS: Sorry. I’ll get mic’d
3 up again.
4 Q. I’m going to mark this as Deposition Exhibit
5 19, and I’ll ask you if that’s a map of the Robin
6 Hood Hills woods area?
7 (Deposition Exhibit No. 19 was
8 marked.)
9 MR. THOMAS: Do you have another
10 copy of Exhibit 18?
11 MS. DAVIS: Here you go. Sorry
12 about that.
13 Q. Mr. Hobbs, is that a true and correct copy of
14 the map of the Robin Hood -- Robin Hood Hills
15 woods area?
16 A. I guess.
17 Q. And I want you to mark on there everywhere in
18 the Robin Hood Hills woods area that you went
19 looking for Stevie prior to picking up Pam from
20 work at 9:00 p.m. You can use that red pen.
21 A. First of all, will you draw me a picture of
22 Robin Hood Hills?
23 Q. My understanding -- and I’m not from West
24 Memphis -- but my understanding is that this area
25 is the Robin Hood Hills woods area. And my

Page 431
1 question to you is, can you mark on Deposition
2 Exhibit No. 19 where in the woods area you went
3 looking for Stevie prior to picking Pam up from
4 work at Catfish Island on May 5th of 1993 at
5 approximately 9:00 p.m.?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Why not?
8 A. Because this don’t -- this ain’t nothing.
9 Q. I mean, we’ve got the Blue Beacon truck stop,
10 we’ve got the woods here, we’ve got the diversion
11 ditch, we’ve got rail line here. I’m just
12 wanting to know where you went, particularly if
13 you went into the woods, which is this area, I
14 just want to know where you went before picking
15 Pam up. Can you not do that?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Are you refusing to do it?
18 A. It don’t make sense.
19 Q. What doesn’t make sense?
20 A. Because there’s paths all through there, you
21 know.
22 Q. Is it your testimony, that based on Exhibit
23 No. 19, you simply can’t, you’re incapable of
24 showing me where you went looking for Stevie
25 prior to picking Pam up on May 5th of 1993 at

Page 432
1 approximately 9:00 p.m.
2 A. You can call it what you want, but that don’t
3 make sense to me.
4 Q. The map doesn’t make sense to you; is that
5 correct?
6 A. Right.
7 Q. And because the map doesn’t make sense to
8 you, you’re unable and unwilling to mark for me
9 where you went looking for Stevie prior to
10 picking Pam up at 9:00 p.m.?
11 A. We was all -- what do you want me to do, draw
12 a circle on it?
13 Q. I want you -- yeah, I’d be happy for you to
14 draw a circle or draw marks, put Xs where you
15 were, absolutely.
16 A. We was -- we was all over the woods, all over
17 the trails.
18 Q. Basically you’re refusing to mark on this
19 map; is that correct?
20 A. I don’t know. I’m trying --
21 MR. THOMAS: This is a flat
22 three-dimensional thing. You can’t see this when
23 you’re standing here at the Blue Beacon.
24 MS. DAVIS: Well, let me -- that’s a
25 great point.

Page 433
1 Q. Can you, are you capable of drawing for me on
2 this map where you went looking for Stevie prior
3 to picking up Pam at Catfish Island?
4 A. No, this don’t make sense.
5 Q. Because the map doesn’t make sense you can’t
6 do it; is that correct?
7 A. I would have -- see, you can go out there now
8 and it’s all mowed down. There ain’t nothing
9 left.
10 Q. Sir, I’m going to move on, if you just tell
11 me that you cannot draw where you looked for
12 Stevie before picking Pam up at 9:00 p.m. on May
13 5th of 1993 because the map doesn’t make sense;
14 is that true? Is my statement correct?
15 A. Sounds good.
16 Q. Now, is it also true that you cannot draw for
17 me where you went looking for Stevie after you
18 picked Pam up from work because the map doesn’t
19 make sense to you?
20 A. Right.
21 Q. Do you have any idea why one of the three
22 murdered eight-year-olds was wearing a Cub Scout
23 shirt?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did the West Memphis Police Department do a

Page 434
1 good job of investigating the murder of Stevie,
2 Michael and Christopher?
3 A. I hope so --
4 Q. And -- do you think so?
5 A. Yes. Yes.
6 Q. It’s your opinion that they did?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. And what do you base that opinion on?
9 A. Two trial.
10 Q. And just to be clear --
11 A. Three convictions.
12 Q. And just to be clear, you believe that the
13 West Memphis Three did in fact commit the murders
14 of the three little boys?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Were you abused as a child by your father or
17 your mother?
18 A. No.
19 Q. Were your siblings abused?
20 A. No.
21 Q. And I’m talking physical abuse?
22 A. No.
23 Q. Was there any sexual abuse in your family?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did your father ever publicly humiliate your

Page 435
1 mother?
2 A. I hope not.
3 Q. Was your father a preacher?
4 A. Yes.
5 Q. A Pentecostal preacher?
6 A. Yes.
7 Q. Were you raised in a strict environment?
8 A. We was raised in a Pentecostal home.
9 Q. Were you allowed to watch TV?
10 A. We did.
11 Q. Were you allowed to watch TV by your parents?
12 A. We didn’t have one.
13 Q. Did you have to wear long-sleeve shirts?
14 A. During the winter, sure.
15 Q. I’m asking if as a religious observance, your
16 parents wanted you to only wear -- you and your
17 siblings to only wear long-sleeve shirts?
18 A. We had short-sleeve shirts.
19 Q. Were you allows to play sports?
20 A. We did, but we wasn’t supposed to.
21 Q. Did Stevie have a preference for his
22 biological father, Steve Branch, over you?
23 A. I don’t know that.
24 Q. Were you jealous over the attention that Pam
25 gave to Stevie?

Page 436
1 A. No.
2 Q. Did you compete with Stevie for Pam’s
3 attention?
4 A. No.
5 Q. Did you call Stevie the rat?
6 A. No.
7 Q. Did you call Stevie the snitch?
8 A. No.
9 Q. Did you call Stevie the boy?
10 A. He was a boy.
11 Q. But did you call him the boy?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Did you call him frogleg?
14 A. Yeah.
15 Q. Did you repeatedly tell Pam to get over it
16 after Stevie died?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Did you ever watch pornography with Stevie or
19 Amanda in a room?
20 A. Never.
21 Q. Did you ever watch pornography with Amanda,
22 your daughter, sitting on your lap?
23 A. Never.
24 Q. Did you ever vow to get revenge on Pam for
25 kissing another man?

Page 437
1 A. Never.
2 Q. Did Pam kiss another man a few weeks before
3 Stevie died?
4 A. I’m not sure when, but something happened.
5 Q. And tell me what you mean by that.
6 A. She was kissing that Mexican in our house.
7 Q. And that happened a few weeks before Stevie
8 died?
9 A. I’m not sure when.
10 Q. How would we best determine when that
11 occurred?
12 A. Ask the Mexican, ask Pam, maybe they know.
13 Q. What is the name of the man that you refer to
14 as the Mexican?
15 A. Jessie.
16 Q. What’s his last name?
17 A. I don’t know.
18 Q. Where did he live, at least at the time?
19 A. Somewhere in West Memphis.
20 Q. And that happened sometime in 1993, did it
21 not?
22 A. I’m not sure.
23 Q. Who is Ray G---------?
24 A. I’m thinking it’s the Ray in Memphis.
25 Q. Is he your drug dealer?

Page 438
1 A. No.
2 Q. Have you had a drug dealer named Ray?
3 A. No.
4 Q. Do you frequent gay clubs?
5 A. No.
6 Q. Have you ever been called the Queer Pepsi
7 Driver?
8 A. No. Where do you get all this from?
9 Q. Have you ever -- have you ever sexually
10 propositioned David Jacoby?
11 A. No.
12 Q. Why did you have a fight with Andy P------ in
13 2005?
14 A. Because I found out that Andy was older than
15 what he told me, and I felt like -- my daughter
16 was 16, I felt like he was molesting my daughter,
17 so we had out issues.
18 Q. How old was Andy P------ when you had this
19 altercation?
20 A. 23, 22, 23.
21 Q. And did you --
22 A. He told me he was 19.
23 Q. Did you threaten him with a gun?
24 A. No.
25 Q. Did you beat him up?

Page 439
1 A. We had a confrontation.
2 Q. There was a fist fight?
3 A. Well, we had differences.
4 Q. Well, that resulted in the police being
5 called; is that correct?
6 A. Sure. And guess what, Mr. P------ went to
7 jail that night.
8 Q. Would you be willing to provide full palm and
9 handprints to a reputable expert?
10 A. I already have.
11 Q. Would you be willing to provide it again?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Why not?
14 A. You can get them from the state.
15 Q. Well, I think there’s a question about
16 whether that’s a full -- full set and a fully
17 done print.
18 A. It was full.
19 Q. If there’s a question about it, though, and
20 we were asking you -- let me back up. You’ve
21 testified that you don’t want the public to
22 believe that you were involved in any way in the
23 murders, and if we asked you for full palmprints
24 to be taken -- hand and palmprints to be taken by
25 a reputable nationally recognized expert so that

Page 440
1 further analysis could be done of palmprints and
2 handprints found at the scene of the crime, you
3 would not be willing to do that, correct?
4 A. Correct, because I’ve already done that.
5 Q. And the only reason you would not give us
6 palmprints is because you’ve already done it?
7 A. Right. And you can get it from the state.
8 Q. And there’s no other reason that you would
9 refuse to provide palmprints, other than that we
10 could get it from the state?
11 A. Okay.
12 Q. Is that right?
13 A. Sounds good.
14 Q. I want to know if there are any other
15 reasons?
16 A. No.
17 Q. Because just, to me, it seems like you would
18 want to do everything, like take a polygraph or
19 give palmprints, do anything you could --
20 MR. THOMAS: Objection to the
21 characterization --
22 MS. DAVIS: Let me finish my
23 question, and then you can object. That’s how it
24 goes.
25 MR. THOMAS: Object to the

Page 441
1 characterization --
2 Q. Because to me, it seems like you would want
3 to do any -- take any of these measures that you
4 could to demonstrate that you were not involved
5 in any way in the murder of Stevie, Michael or
6 Christopher?
7 A. What’s your name?
8 Q. D’Lesli Davis.
9 A. Leslie.
10 Q. D’Lesli.
11 A. D’Lesli, I haven’t done nothing wrong.
12 Q. So why wouldn’t you --
13 A. I don’t have nothing to prove.
14 MR. THOMAS: Maybe because he thinks
15 that Ron Lax will twist whatever you do --
16 MS. DAVIS: I’m not talking about
17 Ron Lax.
18 MR. THOMAS: This is a guy who’s
19 been lied to -- about for years, and he doesn’t
20 want to give him another --
21 MS. DAVIS: Fair enough for your
22 colloquy and your coaching. And the problem --
23 MR. THOMAS: There’s no coaching.
24 MS. DAVIS: And the problem with
25 coaching the witnesses, it ultimately blows up in

Page 442
1 your face, because it makes it look like the
2 witness can’t answer his own question.
3 MR. THOMAS: He’s already answered,
4 and his answer --
5 MS. DAVIS: Okay. My -- are you
6 done? Are you done with the coaching? I don’t
7 know if you’ve gotten it or not.
8 MR. THOMAS: We’re gonna be done.
9 You need to wrap it up. You said an hour, and
10 we’re an hour and a half into this thing.
11 Q. My question to you, sir, is it seems to me
12 that somebody in your position who has been
13 wrongfully accused, per your allegations, would
14 want to do anything and everything to demonstrate
15 that they were not involved in any way in the
16 murder of their son?
17 A. I already have.
18 MR. THOMAS: Objection. Asked and
19 answered.
20 Q. And so, if the next steps would be to give,
21 even again, a palm or a handprint or give a
22 polygraph, you staunchly refuse to do that; is
23 that correct?
24 A. Correct.
25 Q. Do you have a treasure box?

Page 443
1 A. I have more than that.
2 Q. What do you mean by that?
3 A. I have a treasure box.
4 Q. And is it buried?
5 A. I can’t wait to hear this one.
6 Q. Do you have a treasure box that’s buried?
7 A. Not to my knowledge.
8 Q. Okay. Have you buried any valuables?
9 A. Not to my knowledge.
10 Q. Have you told anybody that you have a
11 treasure box that has been buried?
12 A. I don’t remember this one.
13 MS. DAVIS: I’ll tell you what I’ll
14 do. We’ve made a lot of progress. I know
15 everybody is tired and wants to break. Because
16 that’s the end of that section, I’ll be happy if
17 we want --
18 MR. THOMAS: This needs to end.
19 You’ve had eight hours. This needs to end.
20 MS. DAVIS: Fair enough. We can
21 fight about all that stuff. I’m telling you that
22 there’s additional material that needs to be
23 covered.
24 MR. THOMAS: Is it recovered like 90
25 percent of that was?

Page 444
1 MS. DAVIS: Nothing that I’ve gone
2 over has been a recover at all.
3 MR. THOMAS: Every bit of that
4 chronology was recovered, recovered, recovered.
5 Bob covered it two or three times, you covered it
6 two or three times, and there’s questions that
7 are in the record 15 or 20 times.
8 MS. DAVIS: That was Dan, not Bob,
9 to be clear, number one.
10 MR. THOMAS: Okay. Now, I’m a liar,
11 too. That was a mistake. I’m not a liar.
12 MS. DAVIS: And number two, I didn’t
13 call you a liar, and number three, just because
14 you’re wanting to put all these positions on the
15 record, I want to be perfectly clear.
16 Mr. Davison walked Mr. Hobbs through the events
17 of May 5th. When I took over, I did not repeat
18 any of that, but instead asked for explanations
19 for inconsistencies, not based just on his
20 deposition testimony, but on the numerous
21 accounts that exist of that evening, and that’s a
22 completely new area. That having been said,
23 we’re wasting time quibbling on the record.
24 I am happy to proceed if you’d like to
25 proceed. I am happy to break, let everybody go

Page 445
1 home. We can regroup, we’ll be back for Bob’s,
2 and we can fight about whether I’m entitled to
3 ask anymore questions then.
4 MR. THOMAS: Well, you said an
5 hour --
6 MS. DAVIS: I said at least an hour.
7 MR. THOMAS: -- an hour and a half
8 ago.
9 MS. DAVIS: I said at least an hour.
10 And, I mean, for a lawyer, an half and a half
11 when they said an hour is not -- is not too bad.
12 I think we can swear the court reporter under
13 oath and get her to agree to that.
14 MR. THOMAS: Well, how many more
15 hours are -- or about hours which are hours and a
16 half?
17 MS. DAVIS: If you would like to
18 take a break and let me go through my notes and
19 try to whittle some of these things down, I can
20 in five minutes and give you a better estimate of
21 time.
22 MR. MOORE: I was going to say, I
23 think Mr. Hobbs has had enough today, I really
24 do.
25 THE WITNESS: Thank you.

Page 446
1 MR. THOMAS: But he doesn’t want to
2 get teed off on again.
3 MR. MOORE: I’m just saying, I know
4 nobody would want to do that, but I think we’d be
5 better off just recessing, and as Leslie said, we
6 can worry about -- you know, if y’all really
7 don’t want --
8 MS. DAVIS: Fair enough. Let’s take
9 a break and let them -- fair enough.
10 VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re going off
11 record for a break at 6:10 p.m.
12 (A break was taken.)
13 (Back on the record.)
14 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are back on record
15 after a break at 6:13 p.m.
16 MS. DAVIS: I think it sounds like
17 counsel for Mr. Hobbs has talked to Mr. Hobbs and
18 has decided that it’s best to break the
19 deposition tonight and we will reconvene. Mr.
20 Wellenberger will have questions for sure at the
21 next meeting, and we can talk about the
22 additional questions that I have and how much it
23 is and all that. But we’ll reserve the remainder
24 of our questions until that next meeting. Fair
25 enough?

Page 447
1 MR. THOMAS: Okay.
2 MS. DAVIS: Thank you, Mr. Hobbs.
3 MR. THOMAS: Bob, did you catch
4 that?
5 MR. WELLENBERGER: I got it.
6 MR. MOORE: Good night, Bob.
7 MR. WELLENBERGER. Thank y’all.
8 VIDEOGRAPHER: We’re adjourning the
9 deposition at 6:14 p.m.
10 (Deposition proceedings
11 concluded at 6:14 p.m.)

 

456
1 Wellenberger for the Dixie Chicks.
2 MR. HILAND: Cody Hiland with Ted
3 Thomas for the plaintiff, Terry Hobbs.
4 TERRY HOBBS,
5 called as a witness, having been duly sworn, was
6 examined and testified as follows:
7 CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION
8 BY MS. DAVIS:
9 Q Mr. Hobbs, you remember that I'm
10 D'Lesli Davis, and I'm an attorney representing
11 Natalie Pasdar in this case; correct?
12 A Correct.
13 Q And you understand that you're -- this
14 is just a continuation of the last day of the
15 deposition that we took of you. You're still
16 under oath, and the testimony you're giving is
17 still just the same as if you were sitting in a
18 courtroom?
19 A Yes, ma'am.
20 Q And all the agreements we had and
21 instructions about if you don't understand one
22 of my questions, you will let me know, if you
23 need to take a break, you will let me know,
24 those are still in effect. Is that okay?

457
1 A That's okay.
2 Q Mr. Hobbs, you appeared on the Maury
3 Povich show in August of 1994; correct?
4 A I'm not sure of the date, but we did a
5 Maury show, yes.
6 Q Do you remember that it was in 1994,
7 about a year after the murders?
8 A Roughly so.
9 (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 20
10 was marked to the testimony
11 of the witness.)
12 Q (By Ms. Davis) Let me show you what
13 I've marked as Deposition Exhibit No. 20, which
14 is an article entitled, "Retrial Sought in '94
15 Slayings, by Cathy Frye, May 31st of 2008." I
16 think there was some discussion of this in your
17 last deposition, but I just wanted to make sure
18 that that's a true and correct copy of an
19 article in which you gave some quotes.
20 (Brief pause.)
21 Q Does that sound right?
22 A I'm not sure if I give quotes on this
23 or not.
24 Q Let me -- let me clarify then. I

458
1 think in your last deposition you mentioned that
2 you had contacted Cathy Frye in an attempt to
3 talk to her about getting the truth out there
4 about the West Memphis 3. Does that sound
5 familiar?
6 A Out of Little Rock?
7 Q I'm sorry?
8 A Ms. Frye out of Little Rock?
9 Q Yes.
10 A I remember that.
11 Q And I think if you look at Exhibit 20,
12 you can see that this article was written by
13 Cathy Frye.
14 A Okay.
15 Q Does that sound familiar?
16 A That looks familiar.
17 Q I believe you met with her around May
18 of 2008 at a barbecue restaurant ---
19 A Here in Memphis.
20 Q --- in Memphis; correct?
21 A Yes.
22 Q And I've read through that article
23 which is titled, "Retrial Sought," and I've read
24 through some of the notations in your journal

459
1 and I -- I think I understand what you were
2 testifying to in your last deposition about the
3 reasons that you went to the press on a number
4 of occasions, and I want to make sure that I'm
5 right about that; okay?
6 A Go right ahead.
7 Q When you say that you wanted to get
8 the truth out, there was a lot of conversation
9 through the years about the West Memphis 3
10 deserving a new trial; correct?
11 A There has been.
12 Q And for years there's been discussion
13 about them getting the raw end of the deal in
14 their trials; correct?
15 A There has been.
16 Q And when you talked about wanting to
17 get the truth out, one of the things you were
18 trying to accomplish in talking to the press was
19 to make it clear that you believed that the West
20 Memphis Police and the prosecutors had done a
21 good job in investigating and prosecuting the
22 true killers in the murders; correct?
23 A Correct.
24 Q And that the West Memphis 3 belonged

460
1 in prison?
2 A Correct.
3 Q And that there was no need for further
4 investigation or further appeals of their
5 convictions; the authorities had the right guys?
6 A In my opinion, they do.
7 Q And you wanted the press and the
8 public and people that were wondering about
9 weather the West Memphis 3 deserved a new trial
10 to understand that that was your opinion on the
11 matter; correct?
12 A Correct.
13 Q And when you agreed to sell your life
14 story to Dimension Films and to sit down with
15 the Dimension Films film makers and talk about
16 the murders and allow Dimension Films to use
17 your life story and the life story of Stevie in
18 a potential motion picture, you also were
19 wanting to make sure that that truth that we
20 just discussed got out to the public and to the
21 authorities; correct?
22 A Probably so.
23 Q And that if there was going to be a
24 movie made about the West Memphis 3 and whether

461
1 they were wrongfully convicted, you certainly
2 wanted your position on the matter to be clear,
3 and that was that the authorities had tried and
4 prosecuted the killers; correct?
5 A Correct.
6 Q And that they should stay in jail and
7 that there was no further need for investigation
8 of anybody; correct?
9 A Correct.
10 Q And later then, to the extent that
11 anybody was concerned about whether you were
12 involved in the murders and whether there needed
13 to be any investigation of you, you wanted the
14 truth out there that you were not involved --
15 involved in the murders; correct?
16 A Correct.
17 Q And that there didn't need to be any
18 investigation of you; correct?
19 A Correct.
20 Q You have not done any research to
21 determine what specific evidence the Damien
22 Echols defense team will present at a hearing on
23 the habeas corpus filing, have you?
24 A Probably not.

462
1 Q You haven't reviewed the filing that
2 Damien Echols made to try to get a new trial and
3 get released, have you?
4 A I don't keep up with it like that.
5 Q And I appreciate that; and just to
6 make sure that we're clear, you haven't actually
7 looked at the documents he filed with regard to
8 habeas, have you?
9 A No.
10 Q And you haven't kept up, as you say,
11 with regard to what specific evidence he plans
12 to present at the federal hearing?
13 A Correct.
14 Q We had talked earlier about Deposition
15 Exhibit No. 8, and I've put in front of you all
16 of the deposition exhibits we had at your last
17 deposition. So if for any reason you need to
18 refer to any of those, please do.
19 But Deposition Exhibit No. 8 was the
20 Dimension Films contract that you signed
21 regarding your life story and Stevie's life
22 story. Do you recall that contract?
23 A I did do one with them.
24 Q And, to clarify -- I may have

463
1 misspoken. That -- the Deposition Exhibit No. 8
2 is not actually a signed copy of that contract.
3 A Correct.
4 Q Do you have a signed copy of that
5 contract?
6 A It's probably somewhere.
7 Q Just don't know where?
8 A Right.
9 Q Is it your best recollection that the
10 only thing wrong with Deposition Exhibit No. 8,
11 the unsigned contract, if you were to compare it
12 to the actual signed contract, is that amount of
13 payment? That's the only difference?
14 A I'm not sure. I would have to read
15 them to both and compare them.
16 Q Would you do that for me? Would you
17 agree to go back and look for the signed version
18 of that contract?
19 A I'm not sure where -- if I can even
20 find it.
21 Q If Ross Sampson has a copy of the
22 signed version of the Dimension Films contract,
23 would it be okay with you if he produced it to
24 us?

464
1 A Sure.
2 Q A chronology is a description of
3 events and when they occurred. Isn't that
4 correct?
5 A Okay.
6 Q Do you agree with that?
7 A I do.
8 Q I'm sorry. I spoke over you.
9 A I do. I do.
10 Q And based on your understanding -- and
11 I know you're not an expert in DNA and forensic
12 testing, but you do have an understanding that
13 those -- those tests are expensive; correct?
14 A Yes, ma'am.
15 Q We've talked a lot about events that
16 occurred in 2007. I want to pick a time frame,
17 December 31st of 2006. I want to talk about
18 the time frame just real briefly from the date
19 of the murders, May 5th of 1993, to
20 December 31st of 2006. Are you with me on
21 that time frame?
22 A I am.
23 Q During that time, no one ever accused
24 you -- no one in the press ever accused you of

465
1 being involved in any way in the murders. Is
2 that correct?
3 A Not to my knowledge.
4 Q And other than a few comments that
5 we've discussed regarding Pam Hobbs' family, are
6 there any other persons from the date of the
7 murders to December 31st of 2006 that you know
8 considered that it was possible that you were
9 involved in the murders?
10 A Not that I'm aware of.
11 Q When you met with the West Memphis 3
12 investigators and the criminal profiler, what
13 did they tell you about who they were?
14 A What did they tell me? Ron Lax,
15 defense investigator for the West Memphis 3.
16 Q So he did tell you at least that he
17 was affiliated with and working for the West
18 Memphis 3?
19 A Correct.
20 Q And did Rachel Geyser and John Douglas
21 also tell you that they were affiliated with and
22 working with and for the West Memphis 3?
23 A I believe they did.
24 Q And you understood that Ron Lax and

466
1 Rachel Geyser and John Douglas were working to
2 help the West Memphis 3 either -- it's kind of
3 back to what we were talking about before -- get
4 a new trial or get out of prison; correct?
5 A To my understanding.
6 Q And you understood that what they were
7 doing, in their attempts to either help the West
8 Memphis 3 get a new trial or get out of prison,
9 was trying to gather evidence that would be
10 favorable to the West Memphis 3?
11 A I do.
12 Q And at no time did Ron Lax, Rachel
13 Geyser or John Douglas ever tell you that your
14 communications with them were confidential;
15 correct?
16 A I had asked them if I -- if I am being
17 recorded or videoed, and I was told, "no."
18 Q But they never told you that the
19 discussions you were having with them were
20 confidential and would not be disclosed to
21 anyone, did they?
22 A I don't believe they did.
23 Q And it seems to me -- and correct me
24 if I'm wrong, but it seems to me that one of the

467
1 reasons you were also meeting with the West
2 Memphis 3 investigators, Ron Lax, Rachel Geyser,
3 John Douglas, was also part of this mission to
4 get the truth out ---
5 MR. THOMAS: Object to the
6 characterization of his mission to get the truth
7 out.
8 Q (By Ms. Davis) In other words ---
9 COURT REPORTER: I couldn't hear
10 all of that.
11 MR. THOMAS: Object to the
12 characterization of his mission to get the truth
13 out.
14 Q (By Ms. Davis) In other words, you
15 wanted the West Memphis 3 investigators to
16 understand, in the same way that you had wanted
17 the public and the authorities to understand,
18 that you believed -- and I will just break it
19 down -- that the West Memphis Police had done a
20 good job in catching the killers; correct?
21 A They did.
22 Q And you wanted the West Memphis 3
23 investigators to know that as well; correct?
24 A Right.

468
1 Q And you wanted the West Memphis 3
2 investigators to know that you felt like the
3 prosecutors had done a good job in getting an
4 appropriate conviction of the killers when they
5 convicted the West Memphis 3; correct?
6 A Correct.
7 Q And that to the extent you could
8 impart to those West Memphis 3 investigators
9 that there was no need for further
10 investigation, you wanted to do that; correct?
11 A Well, they -- I did, and there's also
12 something else you're overlooking. I wanted --
13 I mentioned this before to someone. I wanted to
14 go down and see what kind of people that are
15 trying to get some killers out of prison.
16 Q And I -- that's one of the reasons
17 quite frankly that I'm following up on this line
18 of questions. I saw -- I got your transcript
19 back of the first day of the deposition. Did
20 you have an opportunity to look at that?
21 A No.
22 Q Okay. And in reading that, I saw that
23 comment where you said you wonder what kind of
24 people would try to get killers out of prison,

469
1 and that's one of the reasons I'm following up.
2 MR. THOMAS: The rules don't
3 contemplate you going back through the transcript
4 after seven hours and then coming back in here
5 and pounding him.
6 MS. DAVIS: Well, I'm not trying
7 to pound him. I'm ---
8 MR. THOMAS: What we need to do
9 is move to new topics. What we don't need to do
10 is go to the transcript and use extra time. You
11 know, we want to get this thing done today.
12 MS. DAVIS: I that understand
13 that Mr. Thomas, and I'm trying to do that.
14 Q (By Ms. Davis) But in follow-up to
15 that, I'm trying to understand your testimony.
16 MR. THOMAS: You've made three or
17 four references to previous transcripts.
18 Q (By Ms. Davis) And let me just finish
19 this line of questioning; and that is to say
20 that in going down and meeting with the West
21 Memphis 3 investigators to see what kind of
22 people would want to get killers of out of
23 prison, you wanted to take that opportunity to
24 inform the West Memphis 3 investigators that the

470
1 right guys were in prison and there was no need
2 for further investigation; correct?
3 A At the time, yes. Little to know that
4 I was under their investigation.
5 MS. DAVIS: And I'll object to
6 everything but, "at the time, yes," as being
7 nonresponsive.
8 Q (By Ms. Davis) Did you tell John
9 Mark Byers about the DNA evidence when Ron Lax
10 told you about your DNA evidence?
11 A I'm not sure.
12 Q Do you have any recollection of
13 calling Mr. Byers and informing him of that DNA
14 evidence some time in May or June of 2007?
15 A I don't recollect that.
16 Q Is it possible that you did?
17 A It could be. I'm not sure.
18 Q If Mr. Byers said that you called him
19 and told him about the DNA evidence before he
20 had heard about the Hobbs DNA evidence from any
21 other source, would you agree that that's
22 probably likely what you did?
23 MR. THOMAS: Objection; lack of
24 foundation, also calls for speculation.

471
1 Q (By Ms. Davis) You can answer.
2 A I wouldn't believe anything John Mark
3 Byers said.
4 Q Is it fair to say that you and John
5 Mark Byers were friends for a time?
6 A I tried to be.
7 Q What period of time was it that you
8 and Mr. Byers actually had a good relationship?
9 A I don't think we ever had a good
10 relationship.
11 Q What was the time period that you were
12 trying to be friends with Mr. Byers?
13 A During and after the trials.
14 Q And how long after the trials?
15 A Well, we went our separate ways, and I
16 would run across him or call him every once in a
17 while.
18 Q Can you tell me a time period that
19 your relationship with Mr. Byers went south?
20 A Probably when I found out that he had
21 been recording me and not to my knowledge.
22 Q And when was that?
23 A I'm not sure.
24 Q Is it 2007, 2008?

472
1 A Roughly.
2 Q Can you narrow it down to one of those
3 years?
4 A Not really.
5 Q Mr. Hobbs, I'm going to have to go
6 into some material now that may be sensitive,
7 and I want you to know that I'm not trying to
8 make you uncomfortable or embarrass you. It's
9 just the nature of this case in which certain
10 sensitive events occurred in 1993 and also the
11 fact that you've placed your reputation in issue
12 at bringing this lawsuit. So, please,
13 understand as I ask you some of these questions
14 that I'm not -- I'm not trying to upset you.
15 (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 21
16 was marked to the testimony
17 of the witness.)
18 Q (By Ms. Davis) Let me show what's
19 been marked as Deposition Exhibit No. 21, and
20 that is an affidavit prepared by Sharon Nelson
21 who is a former girlfriend of your's, I believe,
22 according to your past testimony. You have seen
23 this document before; correct?
24 A We did this last time.

473
1 Q You mentioned overall that you thought
2 it was a bunch of garbage last time, but is this
3 the document -- Deposition Exhibit No. 21 is the
4 document you were referring to as a bunch of
5 garbage?
6 A Part of it is, yes, ma'am.
7 Q What is the other bunch of garbage
8 that you're referring to with regard to
9 Ms. Nelson?
10 A The part that she said that I found
11 the boys first, and anything she said about that
12 is a lie.
13 Q Let me -- let me just read this real
14 quickly then. In Paragraph 5:
15 "I recall a few times that Terry
16 did talk about Stevie when Terry
17 and I were alone together. Terry
18 told me he discovered the bodies
19 of the boys the night they were
20 killed. He said that the bodies
21 were buried under water. Terry
22 told me that they were dead when
23 he found the bodies. Terry said
24 that he saw some bites and there

474
1 were some cut-like marks. He told
2 me those bodies were nothing I
3 would ever want to see when I'd
4 ask what they looked like when he
5 found them. Terry told me he
6 found the bodies before he picked
7 up Pam, his ex-wife, from her job
8 that night. Terry said he waited
9 to tell her and the police until
10 it was time for Pam to get off
11 work."
12 Are those statements by Ms. Nelson
13 true?
14 A No, ma'am.
15 Q Specifically, did you find the bodies
16 of the three little boys prior to picking Pam up
17 from work?
18 A No, I did not.
19 Q Did you ever tell Sharon Nelson that
20 you found the bodies of the boys prior to
21 picking them (sic) up from work?
22 A Not one time.
23 Q Do you have any explanation for --
24 well, let me back up. Are you saying that

475
1 Sharon Nelson is lying in her affidavit?
2 A Exactly.
3 Q Do you have any explanation for why
4 Sharon Nelson would lie about something that
5 serious in her decla -- or her affidavit?
6 A Her fifteen minutes of fame.
7 Q Any other explanation for why
8 Ms. Nelson would lie about something so
9 important other than that she wanted to be
10 famous for a few minutes?
11 A I have no explanation for that.
12 (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 22
13 was marked to the testimony
14 of the witness.)
15 Q (By Ms. Davis) I'm going to show you
16 what I'm marking as Deposition Exhibit No. 22,
17 and I'll direct your attention to Page 7 of this
18 document. I'll represent to you that this is a
19 copy of the testimony of Regina Meek at the
20 trial of Damien Echols and James Baldwin.
21 Do you recall in your interview by the
22 West Memphis Police Department that you told the
23 West Memphis Police that you had searched the
24 woods with Lieutenant Regina Meek from the West

476
1 Memphis Police Department?
2 A I don't recall that.
3 Q As you sit here today, do you recall
4 whether you searched the wooded area with
5 Lieutenant Regina Meek?
6 A Ms. Regina Meek came out to the wooded
7 area. We followed her over there. She got out
8 of her car. She walked down in the woods just a
9 few minutes, and she come back.
10 Q And ---
11 A It was hot and muggy, full of
12 mosquitos, and that was her reason that she told
13 us.
14 Q And ---
15 A It was shift change.
16 Q If Ms. Meek testifies, as she did in
17 Deposition Exhibit No. 22, that she was out of
18 her car for three to four minutes and did not
19 cross the pipe bridge into the woods, would you
20 disagree with that testimony?
21 A No, I wouldn't disagree.
22 Q And would you consider -- based on
23 your recollection of events and your
24 consideration of Lieutenant Meek's testimony

477
1 that you have in front of you, would you
2 consider that to be searching the woods with
3 Lieutenant Meek, her getting out of the car for
4 three or four minutes and walking to the pipe
5 bridge?
6 A No, because it was a three-acre area.
7 MS. DAVIS: Let me mark as
8 Deposition Exhibit No. 23 the testimony of Dana
9 Moore. This is trial testimony.
10 (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 23
11 was marked to the testimony
12 of the witness.)
13 Q (By Ms. Davis) In your journals and
14 in your Dimension Films interview, and I think
15 in a few other places, you have indicated that
16 you were with Dana Moore and Mark Byers between
17 6:00 p.m. and 6:30 on May 5th of 1993, and that
18 the three of you guys were discussing where the
19 kids were and starting to search and calling the
20 police officers. Do you recall that you have
21 previously made those statements?
22 A I met Ms. Moore in her front yard.
23 Q Do you recall that you, on numerous
24 occasions, said that that meeting in the front

478
1 yard with Ms. Moore and Mr. Byers occurred
2 around 6:00 or 6:30 p.m. on May 5th of 1993?
3 A I don't want to put a time on it, but
4 we did have a meeting in the front yard.
5 Q Well -- and I understand you're not
6 putting a time on it today. My question is a
7 little more specific. Do you recall that on
8 past occasions you have said that 'that' meeting
9 in the front yard with Ms. Moore and Mr. Byers
10 occurred around 6:00 or 6:30 p.m. on May 5th
11 of 1993?
12 A No, ma'am.
13 Q You just have no recollection of that
14 as you sit here today?
15 A Well, I don't know the time.
16 Q Let me direct your attention to the
17 second page of the Dana Moore testimony,
18 beginning about halfway down the page.
19 Mr. Fogleman asks Ms. Moore:
20 "Later did you see him," meaning
21 her son, Michael Moore, "with
22 somebody else besides Steve
23 Branch?
24 "A Yes, sir. Chris Byers.

479
1 "Q Where did you see them at that
2 time?
3 "A Going north on 14th Street.
4 "Q Were they walking or --
5 "A They were riding their bikes.
6 "Q How many bikes were there?
7 "A There was two bikes."
8 And then down towards the end, about
9 four lines up:
10 "Q What time of the day was it?
11 "A 6:00 o'clock."
12 Did I read that correctly?
13 A That's what it -- correct.
14 Q Ms. Moore testified that she saw the
15 boys at 6:00 p.m. on May 5th of 1993. Does
16 that refresh your recollection about whether or
17 not the meeting you had in Ms. Moore's front
18 yard with Mr. Byers and Ms. Moore discussing the
19 missing boys could have occurred substantially
20 later than 6:00 p.m.?
21 A No, it don't.
22 Q Is it possible that on the occasions
23 you stated that you met with Ms. Moore and
24 Mr. Byers at 6:00 p.m. or 6:30, you were

480
1 mistaken?
2 A I'm not sure of the time. I know we
3 had the meeting.
4 Q Is it possible that you were mistaken
5 in past accounts by you of what happened on
6 May 5th, 1993 when you say that meeting
7 occurred at 6:00 p.m. or 6:30 p.m.?
8 A I'm not sure about the time.
9 MS. DAVIS: And I'll object to
10 that answer as being nonresponsive.
11 Q (By Ms. Davis) My specific question
12 is: Is it possible, Mr. Hobbs, in past versions
13 or past accounts of those events that you were
14 mistaken when you said you met with Ms. Moore
15 and Mr. Byers at 6:00 p.m. or 6:30 on May 5th of
16 1993?
17 A It's possible.
18 Q Is it possible that your meeting with
19 Ms. Moore and Mr. Byers did not occur until
20 approximately 8:00 or 8:30 p.m.?
21 A I guess it's possible.
22 Q You don't have any reason to believe
23 that Ms. Moore is lying in her deposition
24 testimony, do you?

481
1 A (Witness shakes head.)
2 (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 24
3 was marked to the testimony
4 of the witness.)
5 Q (By Ms. Davis) Let me show you what
6 I'm marking as Deposition Exhibit No. 24, which
7 is a declaration of John Mark Byers. I'll give
8 you a moment to look at that.
9 (Brief pause.)
10 Q Let me direct your attention to
11 Paragraph 17. Mr. Byers states:
12 "In fact, I met Hobbs at my house
13 at approximately 8:20 or 8:30 p.m.
14 I know it was 8:20 or 8:30 p.m. or
15 so because, number one, Dana Moore
16 had last seen the boys riding
17 their bikes around 6:00 p.m.; and
18 two, I called the police to report
19 Christopher missing around 8:08
20 p.m. Simply put, I did not and
21 Dana Moore did not even think the
22 boys were missing at 6:00 p.m. or
23 6:30 p.m."
24 Did I read that entry correctly,

482
1 Mr. Hobbs?
2 A You did.
3 Q I'm sorry?
4 A You did.
5 Q And does that additional testimony
6 from Mr. Byers, in conjunction with what we've
7 just read from Ms. Moore, suggest to you that
8 the time that you met Ms. Moore and Ms. Byers
9 (sic) in the front yard of her house on
10 May 5th of 1993 was not around 6:00 or
11 6:30 p.m., but was rather around 8:00 or 8:30
12 p.m.?
13 A Okay. Sounds good.
14 Q Does -- does that sound correct?
15 A I don't know about correct.
16 MR. THOMAS: Objection; lack of
17 foundation. Asked and answered. He's said what
18 he had to say about this at least 20 times.
19 Q (By Ms. Davis) Let me direct your
20 attention to Paragraph 26 in Mr. Byers'
21 declaration. I think it's the last paragraph.
22 I'm going to read it.
23 "On one occasion I asked Hobbs,
24 'What if those three -- the West

483
1 Memphis 3 didn't do it? What
2 happened it if was an accident?
3 Of course, it is preposterous to
4 think that three eight-year-old
5 boys could be killed in the way
6 they were and it was an
7 accident.'"
8 Hobbs responded:
9 "You are right. It could have
10 been an accident, and that would
11 be like a drunk driver. That
12 person would not be a monster."
13 And then Mr. Byers goes on and talks
14 about his feelings about what you said. Is that
15 a true and accurate account of a conversation you
16 had with Mr. Byers?
17 A No, I don't recall this one.
18 Q Is it possible that that conversation
19 occurred?
20 A No.
21 Q Are you accusing Mr. Byers of lying in
22 Paragraph 26 when he describes this conversation
23 with you?
24 A I'm saying I don't believe that

484
1 statement.
2 Q I understand that. Mr. Byers has
3 sworn that that conversation occurred, and I'm
4 asking you if it's your position that Mr. Byers
5 is lying in this declaration of Paragraph 26.
6 A Yes, ma'am.
7 Q Can you think of any explanation why
8 Mr. Byers would lie about having that
9 conversation with you?
10 A No. You would have to ask him.
11 Q Let me show you what I'm going to mark
12 as Deposition Exhibit No. 25, which is a
13 declaration from Pam Hobbs, your ex-wife.
14 (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 25
15 was marked to the testimony
16 of the witness.)
17 Q (By Ms. Davis) Let me direct your
18 attention to Paragraph 40 in that declaration.
19 Paragraph 40 states:
20 "At approximately 9:00 p.m., Terry
21 came to Catfish Island to pick me
22 up at the end of my work shift.
23 He walked into the restaurant and
24 went directly to the pay phone.

485
1 He did not say anything to me. He
2 did not tell me who he was
3 calling, and he did not tell me
4 that Stevie was missing."
5 Did I read that correctly?
6 A You read it correctly.
7 Q Is Ms. Hobbs' representation of what
8 happened at Catfish Island on May 5th of 1993,
9 when you went to pick her up from work, a
10 correct representation?
11 A No, ma'am.
12 Q What is incorrect about Paragraph 40?
13 A "He walked into the restaurant,"
14 wasn't true.
15 Q You did not walk into the restaurant?
16 A I did probably, but not like this.
17 Q Is it true that you walked into the
18 restaurant at approximately 9:00 p.m. and went
19 directly to the pay phone?
20 A After she came out to our car.
21 Q Did you have any conversation with
22 Ms. Hobbs prior to walking into the restaurant
23 and going to the pay phone?
24 A Sure.

486
1 Q And what was that conversation?
2 A She come out to the car, like she has
3 in the past, with some candy; two pieces of
4 candy, one for Stevie, one for my daughter,
5 Amanda. When she didn't see Stevie, she asked
6 me, "Where's Stevie?"
7 Q And ---
8 A I said, "We haven't been able to find
9 Stevie yet."
10 Q So, when Ms. Hobbs states that you did
11 not say anything to her and walked straight into
12 the restaurant, to the pay phone, that is
13 incorrect?
14 A Correct.
15 Q Is it your position that Ms. Hobbs is
16 lying in Paragraph 40?
17 A She's misrepresenting the story.
18 Q Can you think of any reason that
19 Ms. Hobbs would misrepresent those events?
20 A You would have to ask her.
21 Q So, the answer is, "No, you can't
22 think of any reason"?
23 A Correct.
24 Q Did -- is it true that you did not

487
1 tell Ms. Hobbs that you were going to call the
2 police?
3 A I'm not sure.
4 Q It's possible?
5 A It's possible.
6 Q Let me direct your attention to
7 Paragraph 42. It's on the next page, I believe.
8 "Terry then came out to the car.
9 He told me that he had Amanda with
10 him all evening while I was at
11 work and that they had been
12 searching for Stevie since they
13 dropped me off from work."
14 Did I read that correctly?
15 A You did.
16 Q Did you tell Pam Hobbs that you had
17 Amanda Hobbs, your daughter, with you the entire
18 time after you had dropped her off from work?
19 A Not like this.
20 Q What did you tell her about having
21 Amanda with you the whole time?
22 A First, I didn't go out to the car.
23 "He told me he had Amanda with him all evening,"
24 I probably didn't tell her that because I didn't

488
1 have Amanda with me all evening.
2 Q Did you tell Ms. Hobbs that you had
3 been searching for Stevie since you dropped her
4 off at work?
5 A Probably. I'm just going to say
6 probably. I told her we hadn't been able to
7 find him.
8 Q Let me direct your attention to
9 Paragraph 63 of Ms. Hobbs' deposition, that is,
10 Deposition Exhibit 25. Ms. Hobbs states:
11 "I never saw a black man or a bum
12 on May 5th or 6th, 1993 that I
13 thought looked suspicious. From
14 1993 to 2007, Terry never told me
15 he saw a black man or a bum on
16 May 5th or 6th, 1993."
17 Did I read that correctly?
18 A You read it right.
19 Q Is Ms. Hobbs telling the truth in
20 Paragraph 63?
21 A Well, I would have to say that we seen
22 a man on the street, and he was kind of a poor
23 looking man walking.
24 Q When Ms. Hobbs states that you never

489
1 mentioned to her seeing a black man or a black
2 bum on May 5th or May 6th of 1993, is she
3 telling the truth?
4 A She was with me when we saw him; and,
5 no, she's not telling the truth.
6 Q And I don't want to have any confusion
7 over what I'm asking. I understand it's your
8 testimony that Ms. Hobbs was with you when you
9 saw this black bum. My question to you is: Is
10 it correct that you never discussed the black
11 bum with Ms. Hobbs from May of 1993 to the
12 present?
13 A No, that's not true.
14 Q And is it your position that Ms. Hobbs
15 is lying about the black bum in that paragraph?
16 A She's misrepresenting it.
17 Q Can you think of any reason that
18 Ms. Hobbs would misrepresent whether or not you
19 two had discussed a black bum that was seen on
20 May 5th or May 6th of 1993, the approximate
21 date of the murders?
22 A You would have to ask her.
23 Q You can't think of any reason?
24 A No.

490
1 Q Let me show you what I'm going to mark
2 as Deposition Exhibit No. 26, which is a
3 declaration from Marie Hicks.
4 (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 26
5 was marked to the testimony
6 of the witness.)
7 Q (By Ms. Davis) Who is Ms. Hicks,
8 Mr. Hobbs?
9 A Pam's mother.
10 Q Stevie's grandmother?
11 A Yes, ma'am.
12 Q Amanda's grandmother?
13 A Yes, ma'am.
14 Q Is she a good grandmother?
15 A She's their grandmother.
16 Q Is she a good grandmother?
17 A I would hope so.
18 Q Do you have any personal knowledge of
19 whether she's a good grandmother?
20 A I would say she would be one.
21 Q Let me direct your attention to
22 Paragraph 17 of Ms. Hicks' declaration. She
23 states:
24 "I was very close to Stevie and he

491
1 would frequently visit me or stay
2 over night at my house."
3 Is that true?
4 A Yes, ma'am.
5 Q (Reading.)
6 "On one occasion Stevie was
7 over at my house visiting. He had
8 been playing, and I went to look
9 for him. I could not find him.
10 Ultimately, I found Stevie hiding
11 in one of my closets. When I
12 asked him why he was in the
13 closet, he told me he had gone to
14 the bathroom, defecated his pants.
15 Stevie told me that he was scared
16 that Terry would hurt him for
17 messing -- quote, messing his
18 pants and told me that Terry
19 always punished him severely when
20 he had, quote, accidents. Stevie
21 told me that Terry had locked
22 Stevie in the closet as punishment
23 for having such accidents."
24 Did I read Paragraph 17 correctly?

492
1 A Yeah, you did.
2 Q Is it true that you would lock Stevie
3 in the closet as punishment for having toiletry
4 or bowel accidents?
5 A No.
6 Q Can you think of any reason why Stevie
7 would be hiding in one of the closets when he
8 had an accident with regard to his bowels or a
9 toiletry accident?
10 A No.
11 Q Do you dispute that Ms. Hicks is
12 telling the truth in Paragraph 17?
13 A Yes.
14 Q On what basis?
15 A He was eight years old. He didn't
16 have bowel or bathroom problems.
17 Q And so, it's your testimony that when
18 Stevie was seven or eight, he was not having any
19 sort of toiletry, bowel or urinary accidents?
20 A Correct.
21 Q And so based on that alone, you
22 dispute Ms. Hicks' testimony?
23 A Most definitely.
24 Q Can you think of any reason that

493
1 Ms. Hicks would make up the events reflected in
2 Paragraph 17 about the accidents and you -- or
3 sorry -- and Stevie telling her that you locked
4 him in the closet?
5 A You might need to ask her.
6 Q Okay. As you sit here today, can you
7 think of any reason she would want to do that?
8 A No.
9 Q Let me direct your attention to
10 Paragraph 18. It reads:
11 "One time Terry and his daughter,
12 Amanda, were at my house." I
13 think "at" is left out there.
14 "Out of nowhere, Amanda announced,
15 'Daddy Terry sticks his finger up
16 my butt.' Terry jumped up and
17 grabbed Amanda and took her to
18 another room. When they came
19 back, Amanda said that she had
20 been lying, that her daddy had not
21 stuck his finger in her rear end.
22 I knew a four year old would not
23 just come up with that statement
24 out of the blue if there had not

494
1 been some sort of abuse."
2 Did I read that correctly?
3 A Yeah.
4 Q First, let me ask you if you recall
5 this incident occurring.
6 A It never happened.
7 Q As you sit here today, under oath,
8 it's your testimony that there was never a time
9 that Amanda said that you had, quote, stuck your
10 finger up her butt or anything like that?
11 A Not to my knowledge. I never heard
12 this one before.
13 Q And I take it then that it's your
14 position that Ms. Hicks is lying in Paragraph 18
15 when she discusses this issue?
16 A Most definitely.
17 Q And can you think of any reason that
18 Ms. Hicks would want to lie about something this
19 serious, as the events reflected in Paragraph
20 18?
21 A I don't know why.
22 Q Let me show you what I'm going to mark
23 as Deposition Exhibit No. 27, which is a
24 declaration of Jo Lynn McCaughey.

495
1 (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 27
2 was marked to the testimony
3 of the witness.)
4 Q (By Ms. Davis) And who is Jo Lynn
5 McCaughey?
6 A Pam's sister.
7 Q Let me direct your attention to
8 Paragraph 16, and I'll let you take just a
9 minute to read through that paragraph.
10 (Brief pause.)
11 Q I'll read the paragraph, and I'll
12 begin with the second sentence:
13 "In 2003 or 2004, Terry asked me if
14 I felt like he had murdered
15 Stevie. I asked him why he was
16 questioning me like that. He said
17 he wanted to know. I told him
18 that if he asked me, then I was
19 going to tell him what I truly
20 felt. I told him I believed he
21 was involved in Stevie's murder
22 either directly or indirectly. He
23 told me that hurt his feelings."
24 Let me stop there for a moment. Did

496
1 that conversation occur?
2 A No, ma'am.
3 Q Did you and Jo Lynn McCaughey ever
4 have a discussion about whether you had been
5 involved in Stevie's murder?
6 A No.
7 Q Did you and Jo Lynn McCaughey ever
8 have a conversation about whether Jo Lynn
9 McCaughey thought you were in some way involved
10 in Stevie's murder?
11 A Not to my knowledge.
12 Q I'm going to continue reading:
13 "I told him I believed he was
14 involved in Stevie's murder either
15 directly or indirectly. He told
16 me that hurt his feelings. Then
17 we were talking about whether
18 Christopher Byers had been
19 mutilated; and Terry said the
20 pathologist had said the cut was
21 so precise, that if it wasn't done
22 by a surgeon, perhaps it was done
23 by a jeweler. My husband is a
24 jeweler, so I said that theory did

497
1 not quite fit. I looked at him,
2 and Terry then said something
3 like, 'You know, I've got
4 experience from working in a
5 slaughter house, don't you (sic)?"
6 Did that enter -- exchange occur
7 between you and Ms. McCaughey?
8 A No, ma'am.
9 Q Do you, in fact, have experience
10 working in a slaughter house?
11 A Of course.
12 Q Why do you say, "of course"?
13 A My dad built a packing house back in
14 the '70s.
15 Q What years were you working in the
16 slaughter house?
17 A In the early to mid '70s.
18 Q And what type of work did you do at
19 the slaughter house?
20 A We were butchers.
21 Q And I gather there were hogs that were
22 butchered?
23 A Yes.
24 Q And what other types of meat did you

498
1 guys pack?
2 A Beef -- beef and pork.
3 Q And were you actually involved in
4 slaughtering the animals?
5 A Sure.
6 Q On a daily basis?
7 A Every day.
8 Q And have you ever had any discussions
9 with anybody in Pam Hobbs' family in which you
10 discussed your experience working in a slaughter
11 house in conjunction with discussing the murders
12 of Stevie, Michael and Christopher?
13 A No.
14 Q I take it then it is your position
15 that Ms. McCaughey is lying in Paragraph 16.
16 A Correct.
17 Q And as you sit here today, can you
18 think of any reason that Ms. McCaughey would lie
19 and make the statements she mades -- makes in
20 Paragraph 16?
21 A I don't know.
22 Q Can't think of any reason?
23 A No.
24 Q Let me direct your attention to

499
1 Paragraph 33:
2 "Terry has repeatedly sexually
3 molested his daughter, Amanda.
4 Not long before Stevie's death,
5 when Amanda was four year -- four
6 years old, Amanda told me that
7 Terry had put his finger into her
8 booty."
9 Have you heard that Amanda told Jo Lynn
10 McCaughey, her aunt, that you put your finger in
11 her booty?
12 A No.
13 Q Do you believe that that is a lie?
14 A Of course.
15 Q And can you think of any reason that
16 Ms. McCaughey would lie about that event?
17 A I don't know why.
18 Q Have you ever had any conversations
19 with you daughter, Amanda Hobbs, about whether
20 or not when she was under the age of 15 she
21 accused you of any sexual wrongdoing?
22 A Not to my knowledge.
23 Q Well, as you sit here today -- because
24 I would think that would be a conversation that

500
1 would stick out in your mind, wouldn't it, a
2 conversation with your daughter about whether
3 you had sexually molested her?
4 A I've never sexually molested my
5 daughter.
6 Q I understand that's your testimony.
7 My question to you is a little bit different.
8 Have you ever had any conversations with Amanda
9 about whether she ever accused you of sexual
10 wrongdoing prior to let's say the date she
11 turned 15?
12 A I'm not sure.
13 Q Just don't know one way or the other?
14 A Just don't know.
15 Q It's entirely possible that you and
16 Amanda have had discussions in which you talked
17 about Amanda accusing you of sexual wrongdoing
18 when she was under the age of 15; correct?
19 A I don't know. I ain't never touched
20 my daughter.
21 Q It's possible you guys have talked
22 about it; correct?
23 A I don't know. I don't remember.
24 Q Don't remember one way or the other?

 

501
1 A Not that kind of -- we don't talk
2 about garbage, and this is -- well, I don't know
3 where you get this stuff from; but, no, this
4 didn't happen.
5 Q I understand it's your position it
6 didn't happen, but I just want to be real clear
7 about this. As you sit ---
8 A I don't see how much more clear you
9 can get than it did not happen.
10 Q I'm talking about a different topic
11 though now. As you sit her today, in 2009,
12 Mr. Hobbs, you just can't remember whether you
13 and Amanda have ever talked about the fact that
14 she accused you of sexual wrongdoing while she
15 was a minor?
16 A I don't know.
17 Q Let me direct your attention to
18 Paragraph 35 of Ms. McCaughey's declaration:
19 "Throughout the years, Amanda has
20 repeatedly accused Terry of sexual
21 abuse. In approximately 2002,
22 Amanda told me that Terry had
23 grabbed her breasts. On one
24 occasion, Amanda called me at 3:00

502
1 a.m. and asked me to come and get
2 her in Paris, Tennessee and take
3 her away from Terry. She refused
4 to go back home to Terry."
5 Let me ask you first, did you ever
6 grab, in 2002, your daughter, Amanda's, breasts?
7 A No, I have not.
8 Q Do you have any recollection of Amanda
9 accusing you in 2002 of grabbing her breasts?
10 A No. And I have never been to Paris,
11 Tennessee.
12 Q And do you have any recollection of
13 Amanda calling Jo Lynn McCaughey at any point
14 and asking her to come get her and take her away
15 from you?
16 A No.
17 Q Let me direct your attention to
18 Paragraph 37. Let me back up for a second. I
19 gather then that you believe that everything
20 contained in Paragraph 35 is a lie.
21 A Most definitely.
22 Q Let me direct your attention to
23 Paragraph 37. Ms. McCaughey states:
24 "Later, when Amanda was older, she

503
1 again told me that Terry had
2 sexually abused her and that he
3 was physically abusive to her when
4 she was pregnant. She said that
5 Terry slammed her into a sink,
6 causing the loss of a pregnancy."
7 Let's break that down. Have you ever
8 been physically abusive to Amanda?
9 A No.
10 Q Were you ever physically abusive to
11 Amanda when she was pregnant?
12 A No.
13 Q Have you ever slammed Amanda into a
14 sink?
15 A No.
16 Q Did Amanda ever lose a pregnancy?
17 A No.
18 Q Did Amanda ever go to the hospital as
19 a result of trauma while she was pregnant?
20 A No.
21 Q Have you ever had any conversations
22 with Amanda about you being physically abusive?
23 A No.
24 Q So, I take it that it's your testimony

504
1 that Ms. McCaughey is lying in Paragraph 37.
2 A Most definitely.
3 Q Let me turn your attention to
4 Paragraph 42:
5 "Terry physically abused Stevie
6 when they were alone. Terry had a
7 bad relationship with Stevie. He
8 would punish Stevie by hitting him
9 with a belt until he drew blood.
10 Terry would also punish Stevie by
11 locking him in a closet."
12 Are any of those statements true,
13 Mr. Hobbs?
14 A No, ma'am, they are not.
15 Q Are all of those statements lies by
16 Ms. McCaughey?
17 A Most definitely.
18 Q Let me direct your attention to the
19 last paragraph of McCaughey's declaration:
20 "Terry has promised Pam that if he
21 wins this case, he will pay her
22 50,000 dollars immediately. He
23 has told her that he plans to make
24 250 million dollars from winning

505
1 this case."
2 Have you promised Pam Hobbs that if you
3 win the case you will pay her 50,000 dollars?
4 A No, ma'am.
5 Q Have you promised Pam that if you win
6 the case you will donate 50,000 dollars to the
7 charity that she would like to set up?
8 A No, ma'am.
9 Q Have you told Pam that if you win this
10 case you will pay her any money?
11 A No.
12 Q Have you told Pam if you win this case
13 you will donate any amount of your winnings to
14 her charity?
15 A No.
16 Q And have you ever told Pam that you
17 plan to make 250 million dollars off this case?
18 A No.
19 Q Have you ever told anybody that you
20 plan to make 250 million dollars on this case?
21 A No.
22 Q Have you ever told anybody what you
23 expect to make off this case?
24 A I ain't ask -- I ain't gonna expect

506
1 nothing.
2 Q I'm sorry?
3 A I didn't expect nothing.
4 Q So, it's your testimony -- and you
5 mentioned this earlier in your first deposition.
6 Are you abandoning in your claim for monetary
7 damages in this case? This case you don't want
8 any money?
9 A I think we requested a jury trial.
10 Q You requested a jury trial and you
11 requested monetary dollar damages. Do you still
12 want dollar damages from the jury?
13 A I don't recall -- recall that dollar
14 damages.
15 Q As you sit here today, putting
16 everything else aside, are you going to ask the
17 jury to pay you money or not?
18 A I'm just going to let it all fall in
19 the hands of the jury.
20 Q But the jury is only going to give you
21 things that you ask for. So, my question ---
22 MR. THOMAS: Objection.
23 Q (By Ms. Davis) --- to you here
24 is ---

507
1 MR. THOMAS: Calls for a legal
2 conclusion.
3 Q (By Ms. Davis) --- are you going to
4 ask for money in this case or is this just about
5 bringing the case?
6 A We'll deal with that when we get to
7 it.
8 Q It's true, Mr. Hobbs, that you are
9 going to ask that the jury order Natalie Pasdar
10 and the Dixie Chicks to pay you money; correct?
11 A We'll deal with that when we get
12 there.
13 Q It's entirely possible, isn't it?
14 A Is it?
15 Q Well, it's what you've alleged and
16 asked for in your complaint.
17 MR. THOMAS: Objection; calls for
18 a legal conclusion.
19 Q (By Ms. Davis) You've already asked
20 for money from Ms. Pasdar and from the Dixie
21 Chicks. My question to you is if you intend to
22 ask for money from Ms. Pasdar and the Dixie
23 Chicks at a trial of this matter. This is not
24 just about getting the finding from the jury

508
1 that doesn't involve money; correct?
2 A We'll cross that bridge when we get to
3 it.
4 Q You just don't know as you sit here
5 today whether you're going to ask for money. Is
6 that your testimony?
7 MR. THOMAS: Objection; goes to
8 the legal strategy. He doesn't know what we're
9 going to do at the trial.
10 MS. DAVIS: That's my question to
11 him.
12 A We'll deal with that at the trial.
13 Q (By Ms. Davis) Do you have any idea,
14 as you sit here today, whether you're going to
15 ask for money from Ms. Hobbs (sic)?
16 A We'll wait and see when we get there.
17 Q The answer to that question is, "no,
18 you just don't know"?
19 A Okay.
20 Q Is that the truth?
21 A Sounds good.
22 Q My question is is that the truth.
23 MR. THOMAS: Objection; asked and
24 answered ---

509
1 Q (By Ms. Davis) "Yes" or "no"?
2 MR. THOMAS: --- 15 times.
3 Q (By Ms. Davis) Is that correct?
4 A We'll cross that bridge when we get to
5 it.
6 (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 28
7 was marked to the testimony
8 of the witness.)
9 Q (By Ms. Davis) Let me show you what
10 I'm marking as Deposition Exhibit No. 28, which
11 is a different declaration from Ms. Hobbs; and
12 I'll direct your attention first to Paragraph 7,
13 which states:
14 "During our marriage, Terry --
15 Terry was a regular user of drugs.
16 He frequently smoked marijuana in
17 our home and out of the house. He
18 also used crystal Methamphetamine
19 and cocaine."
20 Is it true that you were a regular user
21 of drugs?
22 A (Inaudible).
23 Q Is it true that you smoked marijuana
24 in the home?

510
1 A We did sometimes.
2 Q And you say, "we." I'm just asking
3 you about you.
4 A Me and Pam.
5 Q You, in fact, did smoke marijuana in
6 the home with an eight-year-old son and a
7 four-year-old daughter?
8 A No.
9 Q You smoked marijuana in the home after
10 Stevie died?
11 A Probably.
12 Q How frequently?
13 A I'm not sure.
14 Q Once a week, twice a week?
15 A I'm not sure.
16 Q Just can't give me any sort of
17 ballpark of how frequently?
18 A Right.
19 Q Too many times to remember?
20 A Or not enough.
21 Q You -- tell me, was it more than 50
22 times?
23 A Couldn't tell you.
24 Q More than 100?

511
1 A Couldn't answer.
2 Q More than 500?
3 A Couldn't tell you. Don't count them.
4 Q How many times did you use crystal
5 meth in the home?
6 A Long enough to see it wasn't for me.
7 Q How long did that take?
8 A Not long.
9 Q Several months?
10 A No.
11 Q Weeks?
12 A Or less.
13 Q What about cocaine, how many times did
14 you use cocaine in the house?
15 A Not enough to count.
16 Q So, essentially, the statements that
17 Ms. Hobbs makes in Paragraph 7 are correct?
18 A To some degree. I'm not a user of
19 drugs.
20 Q Let me direct your attention to
21 Paragraph 8. Paragraph 8 refers to the evening
22 that you hit Ms. Hobbs and shot her brother.
23 Let me read it.
24 "Terry was violent and he hit me

512
1 twice. In 1999, Terry got into an
2 argument. I insinuated that Terry
3 had a girlfriend. As I attempted
4 to leave the house to get away
5 from Terry and just drive around
6 to cool off, Terry fought me for
7 the car keys. When he couldn't
8 get the keys, Terry hit me in the
9 face with a closed fist. I was
10 truly hurt and was worried that he
11 had broken my jaw because he had
12 hit me so hard. I called my
13 family and I talked to my brother,
14 Kevin Hicks. I asked him what a
15 broken jaw felt like. My brother
16 and parents immediately came to
17 check on me. I told Terry my
18 family was coming to take care of
19 me, and I believed that Terry
20 would leave the house. Instead
21 Terry waited outside for them,
22 sitting on the tailgate of the
23 truck."
24 Is Paragraph 8 a true statement?

513
1 A No.
2 Q What's not true about it?
3 A I wasn't -- I'm not violent, never
4 have been.
5 Q Let me -- let me just stop you for a
6 second because I -- let's be clear about that.
7 It is your testimony that you are not a violent
8 man?
9 A Correct.
10 Q You are not an angry man?
11 A Angry over things that has happened in
12 the past two years, yes.
13 Q Fair enough. You are not angry in the
14 sense that you become physically abusive?
15 A Correct.
16 Q And you do not fly into rages?
17 A Correct.
18 Q And you do not beat your children?
19 A No.
20 Q What else is wrong with Paragraph 8
21 other than that you are not a violent man?
22 A I didn't have a girlfriend. I was a
23 married man.
24 Q Have you ever cheated on any of your

514
1 wives?
2 A No.
3 Q You hesitated.
4 A So.
5 Q Or were you thinking of an event?
6 A No.
7 Q You were -- how many times have you
8 been married?
9 A Twice.
10 Q Are you seeing anyone now?
11 A No.
12 Q You hesitated on that too.
13 A And?
14 Q I'm wondering if you're thinking
15 about ---
16 A No.
17 Q --- somebody that might be an answer
18 to that question.
19 A No.
20 Q Okay. What else is wrong with
21 Paragraph 8?
22 A I didn't hit Pam. That's what it says
23 here, with a fist. I never have hit my wife
24 with a fist.

515
1 Q Well, you've testified before that you
2 backhanded her. So the debate is whether it
3 was ---
4 A Through hand spanking.
5 Q Okay. Like show me how?
6 A (Indicating.)
7 Q Well, harder than that; right?
8 A Right.
9 Q It was a hard hit -- a hard backhand?
10 A It was a slap backhand.
11 Q And what else is wrong with Paragraph
12 8?
13 A I didn't break her jaw.
14 Q I don't think she said you broke her
15 jaw. She said it felt like a broken jaw. What
16 else?
17 A And I didn't sit outside and wait on
18 them.
19 Q Anything else?
20 A Number eight, I don't know.
21 Q Anything else on number eight that as
22 you read it -- through it, you think it is
23 false?
24 A A whole bunch -- most of it, yeah.

516
1 Q Well, you've listed for me the things
2 that you think are false. Is there anything
3 else other than what you've listed?
4 A Let me reread it.
5 Q Sure.
6 (Brief pause.)
7 A And it didn't happen in 1999.
8 Q What year was it?
9 A '94.
10 Q Anything else you can see that's
11 incorrect or false about Paragraph 8 of the Pam
12 Hobbs deposition that is marked as Deposition
13 Exhibit 28?
14 A Well, she talked to one brother.
15 Her -- his step-brother and her brother come
16 down with her parents.
17 Q She talked to Kevin Hicks, but Jackie
18 Hicks came down with the parents?
19 A Correct.
20 Q Okay. Anything else?
21 A Now it looks pretty good. Okay.
22 Q Mr. Hobbs, why didn't you leave after
23 you found out that Pam's family was coming down
24 to check on her after you had hit her?

517
1 A First of all, I didn't hit her.
2 Q Backhanded her.
3 A Second of all, it was my home. I
4 don't have to leave.
5 Q But you understood that Pam's father
6 and her mother and her brother would be angry
7 with you for laying a hand on her at all,
8 whether it was a closed fist or a backhand;
9 right?
10 A Okay. But does it say in here she hit
11 me too?
12 Q Let me -- you understood that her
13 father, her mother, and her brother would be
14 angry with you for laying a hand on her, whether
15 it was a closed fist or a backhand, and whether
16 or not Pam had touched you; correct?
17 A Correct.
18 Q That's just the nature of family;
19 right?
20 A Does it say in here I called the
21 police as soon as she told me that they was
22 coming down? No, it don't.
23 Q Fair enough. I'll get to that in just
24 a second. But before you called the police,

518
1 after Pam tells you the family is coming and you
2 know they're going to be mad, doesn't it make
3 sense to just leave and let the situation cool
4 off?
5 A No. I didn't do nothing.
6 Q You had just slapped your wife.
7 A Well, she had been provoking me for
8 three days over one simple woman.
9 Q She was asking for it?
10 A You might ask her.
11 Q You might say that; right?
12 A Well, you don't provoke somebody for
13 three days over something that's not there.
14 Q It's your testimony that because Pam
15 was -- because Pam kept bringing up her belief
16 that you had a girlfriend over the course of
17 three days, it was appropriate for you to
18 backhand her. Is that your testimony, sir?
19 MR. THOMAS: Object to the term,
20 "appropriate."
21 A No.
22 Q (By Ms. Davis) Wouldn't it have been
23 prudent -- let's put it that way -- for you to
24 leave the premises, even though it was your

519
1 house, when you found out that Pam's family was
2 coming to check on her after you had backhanded
3 her?
4 A No.
5 Q Why not?
6 A It's just as prudent for them to stay
7 home and mind their own business.
8 Q Your position is that after you
9 backhanded your wife, it would have been more
10 prudent for her family to stay home, not come
11 check on her and, quote, mind her own business
12 than it would have been for you to leave the
13 house for a couple of hours and let them check
14 on her without you there provoking the
15 situation. Is that correct?
16 A I wasn't there provoking nothing. I
17 lived there. That's my home.
18 Q You had a gun in your pants, didn't
19 you?
20 A I did.
21 Q And you don't consider going out to
22 meet her family after you had backhanded her
23 with a gun in your pants provocation?
24 A I didn't go out to meet her family,

520
1 and they never knew I had a gun ---
2 Q Where were ---
3 A --- in my pants.
4 Q Where were you -- exactly. They
5 didn't know. Jackie Hicks and his dad and his
6 mother did not know you had a gun in your pants
7 when you were talking to them, did they?
8 A I didn't talk to them. They come out
9 the talk to me.
10 Q And where did the shooting occur?
11 A Outside of my home.
12 Q You were, in fact, outside; correct?
13 A Correct.
14 Q You met them outside when they came to
15 check on Pam; correct?
16 A No.
17 Q How did you get outside to shoot
18 Jackie Hicks?
19 A I had a front door and I had a back
20 door.
21 Q And?
22 A They come in the front and I went out
23 the back.
24 Q They came in the front door, you went

521
1 out the back?
2 A Correct.
3 Q And how did you shoot Jackie in the
4 front yard?
5 A Well, they came in the front and I
6 went out my garage and stood out there by my
7 truck and called the police the second time.
8 Q And where did the shooting occur?
9 A Out there by my truck.
10 Q In the back yard?
11 A In my driveway.
12 Q In the front?
13 A Correct.
14 Q So, how did the shooting occur in the
15 front if you had gone out in the back?
16 A I went out in my garage, I called that
17 my back.
18 Q Got you. So, your garage was in the
19 front of the house?
20 A Correct.
21 Q Let me direct your attention to
22 Paragraph 9:
23 "As they were fighting, Terry
24 pulled out a gun and shot Jackie

522
1 in the abdomen. He was moving to
2 again shoot Jackie and my father
3 started walking toward Terry. At
4 that point, Terry pointed the gun
5 at my dad and said, quote, you
6 better not go any farther, I'll
7 shoot you too, you fat, mother
8 fucker."
9 Did I read that correctly?
10 A You read it correctly.
11 Q Did you say that? Is that how that
12 transpired?
13 A No.
14 Q Is Pam lying in Paragraph 9?
15 A This is not a true statement.
16 Q Is Pam lying?
17 A Evidently.
18 Q And the last portion of Paragraph 9
19 states that there was ultimately a surgery to
20 remove that bullet; and her brother died as a
21 result of complications from that surgery. Are
22 you aware of that?
23 A No. Her brother died of crack
24 cocaine.

523
1 Q Do you have any guilt feelings about
2 shooting her brother?
3 A I wish it had never happened.
4 Q Are you -- do you have guilt feelings?
5 A Not guilt.
6 Q Do you have any remorse over shooting
7 him?
8 A Sure.
9 Q Why?
10 A Because I liked him. I had been in
11 the family for years.
12 Q And so you wish you wouldn't have shot
13 him?
14 A I didn't shoot him.
15 Q You shot him.
16 A I did not.
17 Q The gun just accidentally went off?
18 A To shoot someone, you have to point
19 the gun at them to shoot them; correct?
20 Q Yes.
21 A I didn't point the gun at Jackie.
22 This was an accident.
23 MS. DAVIS: Let's take a small
24 break so we can change the videotape.

524
1 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of
2 Tape 1 of the videotape deposition of Mr. Terry
3 Hobbs. The time is approximately 10:06 a.m.
4 (Brief recess.)
5 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the
6 beginning of Tape 2 of the videotape deposition
7 of Mr. Terry Hobbs. The time is approximately
8 10:13 a.m.
9 Q (By Ms. Davis) Mr. Hobbs, are you on
10 any drugs or medication today?
11 A No.
12 Q Have you taken any within the past 24
13 hours?
14 A No.
15 Q Past 48 hours?
16 A No.
17 Q Any reason you can't testify honestly
18 and truthfully today?
19 A I think I'm doing it.
20 Q I told you that I was going to let you
21 tell me about calling the police. Tell me when
22 you called the police in 1994, at the time of
23 this altercation with Jackie Hicks, Jr., Pam's
24 brother, who believed you had been involved in

525
1 the murder of Stevie.
2 A I called them once inside my home and
3 after I found out that Pam -- when Pam told me
4 she called her family. I called them the second
5 time standing out by my truck before they come
6 out, and I told them that they was here.
7 Q Let's walk through those. The first
8 time you called the police you called them why?
9 A Because I knew they would come down
10 and want to start some trouble.
11 Q And why again didn't you just leave
12 instead of calling the police?
13 A I don't have to leave my home.
14 Q You were making a stand?
15 A Call it what you will.
16 Q And did you call the police the second
17 time before or after you shot Jackie Hicks, Jr.?
18 A Before.
19 Q And ---
20 A Trying to avoid it.
21 Q Avoid what?
22 A An altercation.
23 Q And what specifically had transpired
24 that made you think you needed to call the

526
1 police a second time?
2 A They had pulled up in my driveway,
3 walked in my house, yelling at me.
4 Q Did anyone call the police when Jackie
5 Hicks, Jr. was shot?
6 A I don't -- I don't know. I'm thinking
7 her mother might have. I'm not sure.
8 Q Do you recall if the police came and
9 arrested you after Jackie Hicks, Jr. was shot?
10 A No. The police showed up; they didn't
11 arrest me. And the ambulance pulled up in our
12 driveway before the police got there.
13 Q Is it your testimony that Pam is lying
14 in Paragraphs 8 and 9 when she describes the
15 events of you shooting her brother?
16 A Well, we done went through eight.
17 Q And now we've kind of gone through
18 nine I think as well.
19 A Well, he didn't die because of me
20 shooting him.
21 Q Let's back up.
22 A I didn't shoot him, but he didn't die
23 because of the gunshot.
24 Q Number one, did you pull out a gun and

527
1 shoot Jackie?
2 A No.
3 Q You didn't pull the gun out of your
4 pants? It just went off in the back of your
5 pants?
6 A I pulled the gun out and pointed it up
7 in the air and pulled the trigger.
8 Q And somehow that bullet hit Jackie in
9 the abdomen?
10 A I'm laying face down on the ground,
11 had -- he was on my back, had my head twisted
12 up, fixing to break my neck. I'm looking this
13 way. I pulled the gun out, pulled the trigger,
14 and that's all I done (indicating).
15 Q Can you show me? Are you leaned over?
16 A I'm laying ---
17 Q You're laying flat on the ground.
18 A --- flat on the ground.
19 Q So, you pull the gun out of your
20 belt -- show me -- and then just pulled up like
21 that (indicating)?
22 A I had the gun in my front pants.
23 Q In your front pants.
24 A And we were in the front.

528
1 Q And you're lying on the ground.
2 A And I pull it out and pulled ---
3 Q And just pull it up like that
4 (indicating)?
5 A --- and pulled the trigger.
6 Q And it hit Jackie in the abdomen?
7 A Oh, well.
8 Q I'm sorry?
9 A Yeah, it did.
10 Q Did you just say, "oh, well"? Is that
11 your testimony?
12 A I said that, but it happened.
13 Q What did you mean by -- what did you
14 mean by that?
15 A It happened. It's -- it's been a sad
16 story that it happened, but it happened.
17 Q Did you point the gun at Pam's father?
18 A I did.
19 Q Why?
20 A He was heading over there to me,
21 saying something.
22 Q Was this before or after you shot
23 Jackie?
24 A After the shooting. He came over

529
1 after.
2 Q So, it's your testimony that after you
3 accidentally shot Jackie, you stood up and
4 deliberately pointed the gun at Pam's father,
5 Jackie Hicks, Sr.?
6 A He was heading over to me, saying
7 something; and I pointed the gun at him, I did.
8 Q So, the answer to that is, "yes"?
9 A Correct, yes.
10 Q And did you say, "You better not go
11 any farther, I'll shoot you too, you fat mother
12 fucker"?
13 A I don't remember. I told him
14 something. I don't remember what.
15 Q Something along those lines?
16 A Something.
17 Q And you certainly didn't scream, "This
18 is an accident. Oh, my gosh. I'm so sorry,"
19 did you?
20 A Probably not.
21 Q And lastly, you mentioned that Jackie
22 Hicks, Jr. died related to crack, not to your
23 shooting him. What you mean by that is that
24 Jackie didn't die immediately following the

530
1 shooting.
2 A Twelve years later.
3 Q Twelve years later. Do you have an
4 understanding that he did die though as a result
5 of complications of a surgery that was designed
6 to remove the bullet that you placed in him?
7 MR. THOMAS: Objection; lack of
8 foundation.
9 A I don't know.
10 Q (By Ms. Davis) You don't know one way
11 or the other?
12 A No.
13 Q Let me direct your attention to
14 Paragraph No. 10:
15 "Terry would frequently hit the
16 kids with the belt." And again,
17 this is Pam Hobbs testifying. "He
18 would make them hold up their
19 hands in the air as he whipped
20 them. Sometimes when he whipped
21 Stevie, he would leave belt marks
22 on him."
23 Is that true?
24 A No.

531
1 Q Is it true that you whipped Stevie
2 with a belt?
3 A Yes.
4 Q Is it true that you whipped Stevie and
5 made him hold his hands up in the air?
6 A I didn't want to hit him on the hands.
7 Q So the on -- so that's true?
8 A Yes.
9 Q So, the only thing that's not true
10 about Paragraph No. 10 is that you would leave
11 belt marks on him?
12 A Not that I recall.
13 Q So that's correct? My statement is
14 correct?
15 A Probably.
16 Q To your best recollection, "yes"?
17 A Correct.
18 Q Let me direct your attention to
19 Paragraph 14 of Pam Hobbs' declaration:
20 "Two weeks after Stevie died, Terry
21 left town. Terry left me in
22 Blytheville, Arkansas and moved
23 to Hardy, Arkansas. He said I
24 was too much to handle and that

532
1 he could not stay around me
2 anymore."
3 Did I read that correctly?
4 A You did.
5 Q And is that a true paragraph?
6 A I'm not sure about the time frame,
7 but, yeah, I had to get away.
8 Q And tell me why.
9 A It was just too many things happening.
10 Q What do you mean specifically?
11 A This thing was taking a toll on Pam.
12 Pam was my wife, and we had never been through
13 something like this; and I just seen Pam doing
14 things that I didn't understand, and her family
15 was -- there was a lot of anger floating around
16 in the family. They was making threats. You
17 know, they even threatened me a few times.
18 Q And they threatened you within a few
19 weeks of Stevie's death because they believed
20 that you were involved in the murders; correct?
21 A Wrong.
22 Q Why did they threaten you?
23 A Just anger.
24 Q Well, what did they threaten you with?

533
1 What did they say?
2 A Just anger, you know. I don't
3 remember. There was just threats going around.
4 Q Specifically within -- let's pick a
5 month after the members. It is true that
6 members of Pam Hobbs' family believed that you
7 were involved in the murders and told you so;
8 correct?
9 A I don't remember that.
10 Q Within a couple of months?
11 A I don't know.
12 Q You have -- and as you sit here today,
13 you have no recollection of why her family
14 members were threatening you. Is that your
15 testimony?
16 A Other than anger.
17 Q Anger at what though?
18 A We had just lost a little boy. They
19 lost a nephew, a niece (sic), a grandson. Yes,
20 there's a lot of anger that goes along with
21 this.
22 Q It's interesting though, isn't it,
23 that they were angry at you?
24 A I was a stepparent.

534
1 Q Your name has been removed from
2 Stevie's gravestone. Is that correct?
3 A Sure.
4 Q And you left Pam within a couple of
5 weeks of the murders; correct? That's true,
6 isn't it, sir?
7 A I don't know.
8 Q Within a month.
9 A I don't keep up with some things.
10 Q Within a month of the murders you were
11 gone.
12 A I don't remember.
13 Q Just can't recall as you sit here
14 today. Is that right?
15 A That's right.
16 Q Let me direct your attention to
17 Paragraph 17:
18 "Terry has also mistreated our
19 Daughter, Amanda." This is Pam
20 talking. "In 1993, when Amanda
21 was four years old, my sister,
22 Jo Lynn McCaughey, told me that
23 Amanda had told her that Terry had
24 put his finger into Amanda's

535
1 booty."
2 And I'm going to continue reading
3 Paragraph 18:
4 "I took Amanda to the hospital in
5 Blytheville, Arkansas so a
6 doctor could do a physical
7 examination. That doctor told me
8 that Amanda had been vaginally
9 penetrated and that she had a
10 yeast infection."
11 Did I read that correctly?
12 MR. THOMAS: Object to the form
13 as triple hearsay.
14 Q (By Ms. Davis) Did I read ---
15 A I wasn't paying attention, but it
16 sounds good.
17 Q All right. Now, it is true that Pam
18 Hobbs, back when Amanda was four, took Amanda to
19 the doctor because there were allegations of
20 sexual abuse; correct?
21 A I don't remember.
22 Q Do you recall whether a doctor gave a
23 examination to Amanda that resulted in him
24 saying that Amanda, at four years old or around

536
1 that time period, had been vaginally penetrated?
2 MR. THOMAS: Objection; no
3 foundation. Calls for speculation.
4 Q (By Ms. Davis) Is it possible that
5 that happened?
6 A I couldn't tell you.
7 Q Is it possible that you've forgotten?
8 A Some things, yeah. Something like
9 that you've never heard of.
10 Q What do you mean by that?
11 A I never heard that.
12 Q It's your testimony, as you sit here
13 today, that you were never told that Amanda had
14 a physical examination in which the doctor
15 opined that Amanda had been vaginally penetrated
16 around the age of four?
17 A I don't recall that.
18 Q Is it possible that you were told
19 that?
20 MR. THOMAS: Objection; calls for
21 speculation.
22 A I don't recall that.
23 Q (By Ms. Davis) Or that she had a
24 yeast infection. Do you recall that?

537
1 A She might have had a yeast infection.
2 Babies get that.
3 Q At four years old, do you recall ---
4 A I don't ---
5 Q Let me finish my question. At four
6 years old, do you recall being told that a
7 doctor had examined Amanda and determined that
8 she had a yeast infection?
9 A No.
10 Q Do you recall the police coming to
11 your home and Amanda saying that she knew where
12 her father kept his drugs?
13 A I remember that.
14 Q And she went and found your drugs and
15 gave them to the police officers. Isn't that
16 correct?
17 A She went and found a half a joint.
18 Q And give it to the police officers;
19 correct?
20 A Yes.
21 Q And you were arrested; correct?
22 A I was.
23 Q And how old was Amanda when that
24 happened?

538
1 A I don't remember.
2 Q Do you remember what year that
3 happened?
4 A No.
5 (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 29
6 was marked to the testimony
7 of the witness.)
8 Q (By Ms. Davis) Let me show you what
9 I've marked as Deposition Exhibit No. 29. This
10 is a declaration of Mildred French. Do you
11 recall at your last deposition we asked you
12 about Mildred French and you did not recall who
13 she was? Do you remember that testimony?
14 A Correct.
15 Q Let me give you just a minute to go
16 through Deposition Exhibit No. 29, the
17 declaration of Mildred French.
18 (Brief pause.)
19 A All right.
20 Q Have you read it?
21 A No. I'm not going to.
22 Q Why not?
23 A It doesn't mean nothing to me.
24 Q Why doesn't it mean anything to you?

539
1 A It just don't.
2 Q Mildred French was a neighbor of yours
3 back in the '80s, wasn't she?
4 A I don't remember.
5 Q Well, if you would read the Deposition
6 Exhibit No. 29, it might refresh your
7 recollection.
8 A Okay.
9 Q Are you refusing to read Deposition
10 Exhibit No. 29?
11 A It just don't mean nothing to me.
12 Probably just 30 years ago.
13 Q Well, I think some of the events that
14 happened 30 years ago or almost 30 years ago may
15 be relevant. So let's walk through what she
16 says. Beginning with Paragraph No. 3:
17 "In 1982, I was a neighbor of Terry
18 Hobbs in Hot Springs, Arkansas. I
19 lived in a two-story duplex, next
20 door to Terry Hobbs, his wife and
21 their child. On different
22 occasions in the mornings, I
23 caught Terry standing outside
24 looking at me in my window."

540
1 Did you ever look in at Ms. French in
2 her window?
3 A No.
4 Q Do you recall now that she was your
5 neighbor?
6 A Some old woman was.
7 Q Some old woman was. Could it have
8 been Mildred French?
9 A I don't know her name.
10 Q How old was this old woman that lived
11 next door to you?
12 A I don't know.
13 Q Fifties?
14 A I don't know.
15 Q How old were you in 1982?
16 A I'm not sure.
17 Q Can you add that up for me?
18 A I was born in '58.
19 Q In your twenties.
20 A Okay.
21 Q Paragraph No. 4:
22 "On one occasion I heard a baby
23 crying and sounds that indicated
24 to me that Terry Hobbs was beating

541
1 his wife and/or his child. I ran
2 next door to Terry's unit and rang
3 the outside bell to Terry Hobbs'
4 residence. After a moment, Terry
5 opened the door and asked me, with
6 disgust in his voice, 'What do you
7 want?' I told him that if he
8 touched his wife or his baby
9 again, I would call the police."
10 Do you remember that event?
11 A No, I do not.
12 Q Did you ever beat your wife or child
13 back in the '80s?
14 A No.
15 Q That was a different wife than Pam;
16 correct?
17 A Correct.
18 Q That was Angela. What was her last
19 name?
20 A Hancock.
21 Q And what was the child's name?
22 A Bryan.
23 Q Your son?
24 A My son.

542
1 Q And do you recall Ms. French or this
2 old lady neighbor knocking on your door and
3 telling you that if you beat your wife or child
4 again, she would call the police?
5 A No, ma'am. That never happened.
6 Q Are you accusing Ms. French of lying
7 in Paragraph 4?
8 A I'm not accusing nobody. I'm just
9 saying that never happened.
10 Q That's -- that's a lie then. If she
11 swore under oath that that occurred, your
12 testimony is that she's lying?
13 A Yes.
14 Q Let me direct your attention to
15 Paragraph 5:
16 "A few months later, I worked
17 outside in my yard. I went inside
18 my home to take a shower and get
19 cleaned up. I specifically
20 remember that I locked all of the
21 screen doors when I came inside.
22 I went upstairs and took a shower.
23 While I was in the shower, I did
24 not hear anything unusual."

543
1 Continuing to Paragraph 6.
2 "When I got out of the shower, I
3 reached to put my hand on my
4 housecoat; and at that moment,
5 Terry Hobbs, who had broken in and
6 somehow gotten upstairs into my
7 bathroom, physically grabbed me
8 from behind and gabbed my breast.
9 I screamed at Terry loudly, 'What
10 are you doing in my house?' and
11 screamed, 'get out.' I kept
12 repeating loudly, 'get out,' and
13 Terry hissed, 'shhh' at me.
14 However, I kept yelling for Terry
15 to get out, and ultimately Terry
16 ran out of my home and ran
17 downstairs into his unit. The
18 bathroom window over my tub was
19 partially opened and my yelling
20 could be heard outside. I recall
21 a man was outside across the
22 street working in his yard. I
23 believe that Terry intended to
24 further molest and/or harm me

544
1 because his actions and demeanor
2 indicated that was his goal, but I
3 believe my continued yelling and
4 screaming alarmed him and caused
5 him to run off. At the time, I
6 was afraid that Terry would rape,
7 harm or even kill me."
8 I would say, "have I read that
9 correctly," but you're refusing to follow along
10 with me in the declaration. Is that correct?
11 A Correct.
12 Q Now, did you break into Mildred
13 French's house?
14 A No.
15 Q Did you break into the unit next door
16 to you in Hot Springs that was occupied by some
17 old lady?
18 A No.
19 Q Did you ever go into the bathroom of
20 Mildred French while she was taking a shower?
21 A No.
22 Q Did you ever go into the bathroom of
23 some old lady that lived next door to you in Hot
24 springs, Arkansas and grab her?

545
1 A No.
2 Q Did you grab Ms. French's breast?
3 A No.
4 Q Did you ever grab some old lady's
5 breast, the one that was living next to you in
6 the unit?
7 A No.
8 Q Is it your testimony that everything
9 stated in Paragraph 6 is a lie?
10 A Yeah.
11 Q Can you think of any reason that an
12 81-year-old woman -- that's old Ms. French is
13 now. Did you know that?
14 A No.
15 Q Can you think of any reason that an
16 81-year-old woman would be willing to swear
17 under oath to these allegations about you if
18 they weren't true?
19 A No, I don't.
20 Q Do you recall when you lived in the
21 duplex unit in 1982, next door to some old
22 woman, that the police were called and you were
23 arrested?
24 A I wasn't arrested.

546
1 Q The police were called, weren't they?
2 A Well, we talked about something.
3 Q What is your recollection of those
4 events that Ms. French ---
5 A I don't have ---
6 Q Let me finish my question. What is
7 your recollection of the reason that the police
8 were called and those events that Ms. French
9 remembers so clearly?
10 A I don't have any.
11 Q You have no idea what the police were
12 called for?
13 A No, I don't remember.
14 (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 30
15 was marked to the testimony
16 of the witness.)
17 Q (By Ms. Davis) Let me show you what
18 I'm marking as Deposition Exhibit No. 30, which
19 is a copy of the police report from 1982
20 regarding you and Ms. French. I'll give you a
21 minute to look through that.
22 (Brief pause.)
23 Q Have you had a chance to go through
24 that?

547
1 A Yeah, I'm going to.
2 Q Okay.
3 (Brief pause.)
4 Q Does Deposition Exhibit No. 30 refresh
5 your recollection that the police came out to
6 talk to you about criminal trespass and assault
7 and breaking and entering ---
8 A I didn't really read it.
9 Q --- at Mildred French's house?
10 A Didn't (unintelligible).
11 Q Is it your ---
12 COURT REPORTER: I can't -- I
13 can't hear the answer.
14 A Didn't really read it.
15 Q (By Ms. Davis) Okay. Are you
16 refusing to read Deposition Exhibit No. 30, the
17 police report related to your attack of
18 Ms. French?
19 A I didn't attack nobody.
20 Q Is it correct that you're refusing to
21 read Exhibit 30?
22 A Correct.
23 Q Why is that?
24 A It don't mean nothing to me.

548
1 Q You say it doesn't mean anything to
2 you; and yet, this case revolves around your
3 complaint that your reputation has been damaged;
4 correct, sir?
5 A This was 30 years -- whatever happened
6 here 30 years ago.
7 MS. DAVIS: I will object to the
8 answer as nonresponsive.
9 Q (By Ms. Davis) This case revolves
10 around your allege -- allegations that your
11 reputation has been damaged by Ms. Pasdar;
12 correct?
13 A Correct.
14 Q And I want to talk about your
15 reputation and your concern for your reputation.
16 And when I look at Deposition Exhibit No. 29 and
17 Deposition Exhibit 30, which involve allegations
18 of you attacking and sexually molesting a woman,
19 that strikes me as something that relates to
20 your reputation. Do you disagree?
21 A It never happened. Allegations.
22 Q I'm -- I'm confused now. My
23 understanding was ---
24 A You said I molested and sexually -- I

549
1 ain't never did that in my life.
2 Q Here is my confusion. I thought you
3 had testified previously that something happened
4 back in 1982 but you didn't recall what it was.
5 A Right. And it wasn't nothing like
6 that.
7 Q Is it possible that ---
8 A No.
9 Q --- Ms. French is telling the truth?
10 A No. If she said I molested her or
11 whatever you just said, no, that never happened.
12 Q Why are you refusing to look through
13 the report to see exactly what did happen?
14 A That's 30 years ago. I don't care
15 what happened 30 years ago.
16 Q You don't care what your reputation
17 was 30 years ago?
18 A I didn't have a bad one.
19 Q You're not suggesting that the police
20 are lying with regard to their report, are you?
21 A I don't know. I ain't read it.
22 Q And refuse to?
23 A (Witness nods head.)
24 Q Let's continue on with Ms. French's

550
1 declaration. Paragraph 7:
2 "I called the police to report
3 Terry's break-in and attack. I
4 believe the police filed an
5 incident report on the matter."
6 Paragraph 8:
7 "I also went that day to Terry's
8 mother-in-law who lived nearby and
9 told her all what Terry had done,
10 that he had broken into my home
11 and had assaulted me in my
12 bathroom. I told the
13 mother-in-law that Terry was a
14 very sick man and that he required
15 counselling immediately. The
16 mother-in-law told me that her
17 family was not in favor of sending
18 Terry to counselling. She was a
19 member of some sort of Pentecostal
20 church. I told her then that I
21 would pursue the matter with the
22 police."
23 Do you have any recollection of
24 Ms. French or the old woman that lived next door

 

551
1 to you in the duplex in Hot Springs having a
2 discussion with your mother-in-law about you
3 attacking her?
4 A No, I don't.
5 Q Paragraph 9:
6 "That night, after I told my
7 landlord about the attack, my
8 landlord set up a meeting in which
9 both Hobbs and I sat down
10 face-to-face in front of the
11 landlord. Terry's father-in-law
12 was also there. I said to Terry,
13 'Tell them what you did to me.'
14 Terry said, 'I didn't do nothing.'
15 After I articulated what Hobbs had
16 done to me, Terry looked at me
17 square in the eye and said calmly,
18 'It never happened.' He was cool
19 and collected as he told me it
20 never happened. If you had not
21 known for certain Terry was lying,
22 you would not have been able to
23 tell by his demeanor that he was
24 lying. I was sickened and

552
1 frightened by Terry's ability to
2 deny his horrific and perverted
3 actions and seemed so calm in
4 doing so. I looked at Terry and
5 told him, 'You are a liar and you
6 are sick.'"
7 Paragraph 10:
8 "Terry looked back at me with cold,
9 dead eyes and said, 'Yeah, I'm
10 sick."
11 Here is my question to you: Do you
12 recall having a meeting with your neighbor and
13 the landlord regarding Ms. French's or the old
14 lady's allegations?
15 A No, I don't.
16 Q Are you testifying that that meeting
17 never took place or are you testifying that it's
18 possible it did, you just don't remember?
19 A I don't recall that meeting.
20 Q Is it possible it occurred?
21 A It's possible it didn't because I
22 don't remember that.
23 Q But it's possible it did?
24 A I didn't say that.

553
1 Q It's not possible it occurred?
2 A Right.
3 Q There was no such meeting?
4 A Not to my knowledge.
5 Q And again, can you think of any reason
6 that Ms. French would make up and swear to a
7 meeting like she describes in Paragraph 9 and
8 10?
9 A You would have to ask Ms. French.
10 Q I did, and she's testifying in her
11 declaration. Let me direct your attention to
12 Paragraph 11:
13 "The landlord kicked Terry and his
14 family out of Terry's unit as a
15 result of his attack."
16 Were you kicked out of the duplex unit
17 you shared next door to an old lady in Hot
18 Springs, Arkansas?
19 A No, ma'am.
20 Q So that's a lie too?
21 A Correct.
22 Q Do you recall the name of your
23 landlord?
24 A No.

554
1 Q Paragraph 12:
2 "I appeared in court to press
3 charges against Terry Hobbs.
4 Though I do not remember the
5 specifics, I do recall that at the
6 hearing Terry was ordered to go to
7 counselling and the matter was
8 resolved in that manner. I do not
9 know if Terry went to counselling,
10 but he was supposed to go to
11 counselling at a facility located
12 on 7th Street in Hot Springs."
13 You've previously testified that you
14 were ordered to go to counselling; correct?
15 A Probably.
16 Q You just don't recall why?
17 A Right.
18 Q But you're sure it wasn't because you
19 had attacked your neighbor?
20 A Right.
21 Q And you're sure it wasn't because you
22 sexually molested an old woman?
23 A I never done that.
24 Q Let me direct your attention to what

555
1 I'm going to mark as Deposition 31.
2 (Whereupon, Collective
3 Exhibit No. 31 was marked
4 to the testimony of the
5 witness.)
6 Q (By Ms. Davis) And this is the
7 declaration of Judy Sadler. Who is Judy Sadler?
8 A That's one of Pam's sisters.
9 Q Let me direct your attention to
10 Paragraph 7 from Judy Sadler. She testifies:
11 "I was very close to Stevie, and we
12 frequently had personal, private
13 conversations."
14 Is that a true and correct statement,
15 that Judy Sadler was close to Stevie?
16 A She was close to Stevie, yes.
17 Q And then she states:
18 "When Stevie was 8, I was only 15.
19 So we were fairly close in age."
20 Is that a true statement?
21 A Seven years difference.
22 Q (Reading.)
23 "Stevie was very scared of
24 Terry. Stevie told me that on

556
1 many occasions Terry had locked
2 Stevie in the closet as punishment
3 for things he had done. I have
4 personal knowledge that Terry beat
5 Stevie on multiple occasions."
6 Now you've got Ms. Sadler, another
7 witness testifying that you locked Stevie in the
8 closet. Does that refresh your recollection
9 about whether you did, in fact, lock Stevie in
10 the closet?
11 A I have never in my life locked any of
12 my kids in the closet.
13 Q Or beat them?
14 A Or beat them.
15 Q So, in the second portion of Paragraph
16 7, it's your testimony that Ms. Sadler is lying?
17 A Whatever. Yeah.
18 Q And can you think of any reason that
19 Ms. Sadler would want to lie about you on a
20 matter as important as that?
21 A Might need to ask her.
22 Q I'm asking you, sir.
23 A I can't think for her.
24 Q Can you think of any reason? I'm not

557
1 asking you to think for her. I'm asking you to
2 think as you sit here. There are a lot of
3 people saying really bad things about you,
4 Mr. Hobbs. Do you agree with that?
5 A Sure.
6 Q Does that concern you?
7 A It causes you a lot of problems. It
8 can.
9 Q And my specific question with regard
10 to Ms. Sadler is: Why would she be lying about
11 you? Can you think of any reason?
12 A Anger.
13 Q Anger over what?
14 A The loss, and the way we've had to
15 live our life in the past 16 years.
16 Q So, your testimony is when we talk
17 about these people from Pam Hobbs's family
18 saying these things about you in these
19 declarations, you attribute it to them being
20 angry over the death of their son?
21 A Son, nephew, yes.
22 Q And that suggests to me that they all
23 think you were involved.
24 A I can't help that.

558
1 Q Let me direct your attention to
2 Paragraph 8:
3 "When Stevie had just turned" --
4 Are you going to read it with me?
5 A (Witness shakes head.)
6 Q (Reading.)
7 "When Stevie had just turned
8 seven years old, he told me that
9 Terry made him and Amanda, age
10 three or four, watch pornography."
11 Did you ever make Stevie and Amanda
12 watch pornography?
13 A No, ma'am.
14 Q Is Judy Sadler lying there?
15 A Yes.
16 Q And if Stevie told her that, was
17 Stevie lying?
18 A We never watched pornography.
19 Q If Stevie told Judy that ---
20 A Yeah. And I don't believe Stevie said
21 that.
22 Q (Reading.)
23 "When he made Amanda and Stevie
24 watch pornography, he would always

559
1 have Amanda on his lap."
2 It's your testimony that's a lie as
3 well?
4 A We never watched pornography.
5 Q Is it your testimony that statement is
6 a lie as well?
7 A It's a lie.
8 Q (Reading.)
9 "He -- Stevie told Terry that he
10 didn't want to watch the
11 pornography. If Stevie told Terry
12 that he didn't want to watch the
13 pornography, Stevie (sic) would
14 lock Stevie into the closet until
15 about 30 minutes before Pam got
16 home."
17 Is that a true or false statement?
18 A That's a false statement.
19 Q (Reading.)
20 "Stevie said that Terry told Stevie
21 not to tell anyone what they were
22 doing, and that if he did, Terry
23 would kill Stevie's grandmother,
24 Marie Hicks, Stevie's grandfather,

560
1 Jackie Hicks, Sr., and Pam."
2 Is that true?
3 A No, it's not true.
4 Q And if Stevie told Judy that, was
5 Stevie lying?
6 A Stevie didn't say that.
7 Q Paragraph 9:
8 "Stevie also told me that Terry
9 would make Stevie watch Terry
10 masterate."
11 Is that true, sir?
12 A No, it's not true.
13 Q Can you think of any reason that Judy
14 Sadler would say that about you if she had not
15 heard that from Stevie?
16 A You would have to ask Judy.
17 Q Can you think of any reason?
18 A No.
19 Q (Reading.)
20 "Additionally, Terry would make
21 Stevie sexually molest Amanda."
22 Did that happen, sir?
23 A Never.
24 Q Can you think of any reason Judy

561
1 Sadler would make that allegation, that serious
2 allegation about you?
3 A No.
4 Q It's your testimony that that's a lie?
5 A It is.
6 Q (Reading.)
7 "Terry would watch and tell Stevie
8 what to do sexually to Amanda.
9 These were not isolated
10 incidents. They were recuring
11 from the time Stevie was six until
12 his death."
13 It's your testimony that that's a lie?
14 A It's a lie.
15 Q Let me direct your attention to
16 Paragraph 13 of Judy Sadler's declaration. It
17 says:
18 "Attached hereto" --
19 You can read along with me.
20 "Attached hereto is Exhibit 1 are
21 true and correct copies of pages
22 from Amanda Hobbs' journal in her
23 handwriting. In it Amanda
24 discussed the sexual and physical

562
1 abuse that Terry inflicted on
2 her."
3 And you can turn back following the end
4 of the declaration. There are pages from
5 Amanda's journal. The first page of the journal
6 says:
7 "This book belongs to Amanda
8 Hobbs."
9 Do you recognize the handwriting on
10 these pages as being Amanda's handwriting?
11 A No.
12 Q Is it your testimony it's not Amanda's
13 handwriting?
14 A I don't know whose it is.
15 Q Sir, can you recognize your daughter's
16 handwriting?
17 A No.
18 Q Why not?
19 A I don't really read -- she didn't
20 write much. I ain't sure she wrote this.
21 Q Let's read through it. It's
22 July 18th of 2008:
23 "You know, I think I'm the only 19
24 year old" --

563
1 Do you want to read along with me, sir?
2 A I'm listening.
3 Q Okay.
4 "You know, I think I'm the only 19
5 year old that can't remember what
6 happened in my life ten years ago.
7 I can only remember one good thing
8 and I was in Kindergarten. The
9 rest is just bad. When I was six
10 or seven, I had a boyfriend that's
11 name was David. Well, I stayed
12 the night with him and his dad
13 messed with me. Then when I was
14 nine or ten, my dad's friend,
15 David, messed with me."
16 And I should state for the record, it's
17 my understanding she's not referring to David
18 Jacoby in that sentence.
19 "Then when I was 15, I started
20 getting" -- excuse my language --
21 "fucked up all the time. Now I
22 don't remember what happened in my
23 life last year. What I want to
24 know, what happened to me when I

564
1 was a child that made me how I am
2 today. Was I traumatized as a
3 child that I had to turn to drugs
4 to forget about it? I used to
5 tell my mom my dad messed with me.
6 I honestly don't remember. As far
7 as I remember, from 15 until now
8 my dad never touched me sexually,
9 but he beat the hell out of me.
10 But what if he did mess with me
11 when he knew I was at the age I
12 would never remember? I used to
13 dream about my dad having sex with
14 me, but it was just a dream; but
15 what if it was a sign? Why would
16 a four-year-old child say their
17 father touched them just for the
18 hell of it? I don't remember
19 saying it or it happening, I just
20 know I said it. Why me? Why was
21 I so attractive to grown ass men?
22 I was just a child. What did I do
23 to deserve that? I just feel like
24 something happened to me to make

565
1 me do the things I've done to
2 make me feel like I fail at
3 everything I do. I feel like I'm
4 not going to heaven for whatever
5 it was, and it hurts to not
6 remember or know what I've done,
7 if I've don it, if it was done to
8 me. Am I the way I am because I
9 have my father's awful blood or
10 because of my childhood? Why is
11 it that I'm always depressed
12 unless I'm fucked up? Why do I do
13 my son the way I do? Is it
14 because of the way my dad did me?
15 God, please take my father out of
16 me. I don't want to be like him.
17 I love him, he's my dad, but we
18 both know how he hit me, and I
19 don't want to be angry like him or
20 violent like him. God, you
21 are the only one who knows if I
22 was messed with as a child; and if
23 I was and I did something to
24 deserve it, please forgive me;

566
1 but, Father, please take this
2 feeling away from me."
3 That's pretty traumatic stuff, isn't
4 it, Mr. Hobbs?
5 A I guess.
6 Q How does that make you feel?
7 A Well, I don't know how to feel about
8 it because I don't know who wrote it, and I
9 don't really care about it. It's a bunch of
10 garbage, more of your garbage that you've
11 collected.
12 Q Mr. Hobbs, with all due respect, if
13 your daughter wrote that, it's not my garbage,
14 is it?
15 A I don't believe it's her's.
16 Q If your daughter did write that, are
17 you accusing her of lying?
18 A I don't think she wrote something like
19 that.
20 Q Assume with me that she did,
21 Mr. Hobbs.
22 A No, I will not.
23 Q Can you think of any reason that your
24 daughter would make those statements about you?

567
1 A This come from the Hicks family, and
2 you just sit here and look through this whole
3 pile of stuff from the Hicks family, and that
4 tells me a whole lot about this letter.
5 Q My question to you, sir ---
6 MS. DAVIS: I'll object to that
7 answer as being nonresponsive.
8 Q (By Ms. Davis) Can you think of any
9 reason that your daughter would make those
10 statements about you, sir?
11 A She didn't make them.
12 Q If she did, can you think of any
13 reason she would?
14 A She didn't make them.
15 Q Is it still your testimony that you
16 never hit your daughter?
17 A Correct.
18 Q Is it still your testimony that you
19 never sexually molested her?
20 A Never one time.
21 Q Is your daughter, Amanda Hobbs,
22 emotionally troubled?
23 A She -- she's had some problems.
24 Q And what are they?

568
1 A Huh? Seeing her daddy's name drug all
2 around the world by your client. It's a
3 problem. It's caused us some issues.
4 Q And just to be clear, as you sit here
5 today in 2009, it's your testimony that any
6 problems your daughter has are the result of
7 comments Natalie Pasdar -- Natalie Maines Pasdar
8 of the Dixie Chicks made?
9 A And everybody else involved.
10 Q Let me ask you that then. As you sit
11 here today in 2009, it's your testimony that any
12 problems your daughter, Amanda Hobbs, has are as
13 a result of actions taken by the press, the West
14 Memphis 3 defense team, the investigators and
15 the Dixie Chicks?
16 A That's a big part of the problems that
17 she's had.
18 Q Do you take any personal
19 responsibility for any problems that Amanda
20 Hobbs has?
21 A I have been a good daddy.
22 Q So the answer to that is, "no"?
23 A Correct.
24 Q We've got so many negatives going on,

569
1 now let me ask it this way to make it clear.
2 A I don't have any negatives.
3 Q You do -- I meant grammatical
4 negatives. You do not take responsibility,
5 personal responsibility, for any of the
6 emotional or other problems that your daughter,
7 Amanda Hobbs, has. Is that correct, sir?
8 A In this stack of papers, no.
9 Q I'm not talking about that stack of
10 papers. I'm talking about your daughter, sir.
11 A I have been a good daddy to my
12 daughter.
13 Q And I take that to mean that when we
14 talk about emotional or other problems that your
15 daughter has had, you do not feel you are
16 responsible for any of those. Is that correct?
17 A Correct. I've been a strong -- I have
18 been a father figure to my daughter.
19 (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 32
20 was marked to the testimony
21 of the witness.)
22 Q (By Ms. Davis) Let me show you what's
23 been marked as Deposition Exhibit No. 32, which
24 is a declaration from David Jacoby. Mr. Jacoby

570
1 is a friend of your's; correct?
2 A He is.
3 Q And he is also a major alibi witness
4 for you with regard to your whereabouts on the
5 night of May 5th of 1993; correct?
6 A He's one alibi.
7 Q Let me direct your attention to
8 Paragraph 6. Excuse me for just a second.
9 (Brief pause.)
10 Q (Reading.)
11 "On May 5th of 1993, I worked at
12 the Memphis Ice Cream Company. I
13 got home from work at
14 approximately 4:30 p.m. on that
15 day. Sometime between 5:00 p.m.
16 and 5:30 p.m. on May 5th of
17 1993 -- it could have been as a
18 late as 6:00 p.m, but I believe it
19 was between 5:00 and 5:30 p.m. --
20 Terry Hobbs came over to my
21 house."
22 You don't disagree with that paragraph,
23 do you?
24 A Well, I'm not sure about the time

571
1 frame.
2 Q It's possible you got there between
3 5:00 and 5:30?
4 A It's possible I went over to his
5 house.
6 Q Between 5:00 and 5:30?
7 A I ain't gonna to say that.
8 Q Well, it's either not possible or it's
9 possible.
10 A Well, I went over to his house.
11 That's possible.
12 Q Is it possible you got there between
13 5:00 and 5:30?
14 A I'm not sure.
15 Q So, it is possible?
16 A I'm not sure.
17 Q If you're not sure, then it's
18 possible.
19 A Call it what you will.
20 Q Let me direct your attention to
21 Paragraph 7:
22 "I believe I saw Terry's stepson,
23 Stevie Branch, ride by on his
24 bicycle in the street in front of

572
1 my house. I also believe I saw
2 two other little boys with Stevie.
3 One of the other boys who went by
4 the front of my house was on a
5 bicycle, and the other boy was on
6 a skate board."
7 Did I read that correctly?
8 A Looks like it.
9 Q Is it true that Stevie rode by David
10 Jacoby's house on his bike when you were over at
11 David's house on May 5th of 1993?
12 A I don't see how that's possible.
13 Q It -- are you saying that Mr. Jacoby
14 is lying in that statement?
15 A No, because he didn't make a
16 statement. He said he believes. He isn't sure.
17 Q But that's what he believes, sir.
18 A Oh, well. Ask him.
19 Q Sir, this relates to whether your son
20 was alive while you were at David Jacoby's house
21 on May 5th of 1993.
22 A I don't know what happened. I don't
23 know where he was at when I was at David's
24 house, but I went to get David to help me --

573
1 help me go look for him; and don't you think if
2 I seen him riding on the sidewalk or street
3 behind me, I would have said, "There he goes.
4 Never mind"?
5 Q Thank you, sir. Though, it is
6 possible that Stevie and the two boys rode by,
7 as David Jacoby suggests in this declaration ---
8 A I don't see how.
9 Q --- on May 5th of 1993; correct?
10 A I don't see how.
11 Q But it is possible?
12 A Not in my opinion.
13 Q Is it your testimony that David Jacoby
14 is lying in Paragraph 7?
15 A I ain't going to say he's lying, but I
16 just don't understand that one.
17 Q Because this is a very serious
18 statement, isn't it?
19 A Is it?
20 Q Well, it is because it has the boys
21 with you around 5:00 or 5:30 on May 5th of
22 1993 ---
23 A Would ---
24 Q Let me finish my question -- when you,

574
1 sir, said you didn't see them that day.
2 A I didn't see them that day.
3 Q Is it a very serious allegation, isn't
4 it?
5 A Not to me.
6 Q Why not?
7 A Why is it?
8 Q Why does it not concern you that your
9 alibi witness and friend is placing you with the
10 boys between 5:00 and 5:30 p.m. on May 5th of
11 1993 when you said you never saw them?
12 A I never seen them that day.
13 Q Why doesn't that ---
14 A And my friend's not placing them with
15 me.
16 Q Why doesn't that concern you, sir?
17 A Because it never happened.
18 Q Let me direct your attention to
19 Paragraph No. 8:
20 "Terry and Amanda came inside my
21 house. Amanda played with toys
22 and Terry and I sat down and
23 played guitars for up to one
24 hour."

575
1 You've already stated that it's
2 possible that you went over to David's house and
3 played guitars for one hour; correct?
4 A I didn't say that.
5 Q You said that in your last deposition.
6 A I don't recall playing the guitar. I
7 went over to see if David would help me look for
8 the three little boys.
9 Q But you did concede that it was
10 possible you played guitars, even though you
11 don't recall it?
12 A I don't recall it.
13 Q (Reading.)
14 "At some point while Terry and I
15 were playing guitars, I asked,
16 'where is Stevie?'"
17 Do you not want to follow?
18 A I'm listening.
19 Q (Reading.)
20 "I asked, 'where is Stevie?'
21 because Stevie usually came over
22 to my house with Terry and Amanda
23 and also Pam Hobbs when she came
24 over. Terry responded that Stevie

576
1 was riding his bike."
2 Is that a true paragraph, the
3 statements in that paragraph?
4 A I don't recall saying that.
5 Q It's possible that you did?
6 A It's possible I didn't.
7 Q But it is possible that you did, sir?
8 A At the same likeness, it's possible I
9 didn't because I don't recall that.
10 Q Fair enough. I don't want to quibble
11 with you or dance on this any further. I'm
12 trying to move forward, but it is possible that
13 on May 5th of 1993, when David Jacoby asked
14 you where Stevie was, that you responded that
15 Stevie was riding his bike; correct?
16 MR. THOMAS: Objection; calls for
17 speculation.
18 Q (By Ms. Davis) Is that correct?
19 A No.
20 Q It's not possible?
21 A No.
22 Q Is David Jacoby lying in Paragraph 8?
23 A I don't know, and I didn't say that,
24 and I don't believe it's possible.

577
1 Q Paragraph 9:
2 "Between approximately 6:00 p.m.
3 and 6:30 p.m. on May 5th of
4 1993, Terry got up from playing
5 guitars and told me that he was
6 going to his house to see if
7 Stevie was at home. Terry told me
8 that Stevie was supposed to be
9 home and he thought for sure
10 Stevie would be home before dark
11 or by dark or something to that
12 affect."
13 Did that occur?
14 A No.
15 Q (Reading.)
16 "Terry then left my house. I am 90
17 percent sure that Terry left
18 Amanda at my house for me and my
19 wife to watch and Terry left my
20 house alone."
21 Did you leave Amanda at David Jacoby's
22 house to watch -- I mean, for David Jacoby to
23 watch Amanda and you leave the house alone?
24 A No.

578
1 Q Are you sure about that?
2 A David was with me.
3 Q My question was: Are you sure about
4 that?
5 A Yeah, pretty sure.
6 Q Not positive?
7 A Well, I went to David's house to get
8 him to go help me look. I left my daughter
9 there and he went with me. We went looking.
10 Q I want to be clear about what you
11 disagree with in Mr. Jacoby's declaration,
12 particularly since he's your alibi witness. You
13 disagree that the boys were there; correct?
14 A Correct.
15 Q You disagree that you told David that
16 Stevie was riding his bike?
17 A Correct.
18 Q You disagree that you left David
19 Jacoby's home alone?
20 A I think David left with me.
21 Q So you disagree with him when he says
22 you left alone?
23 A Okay. Right.
24 Q Paragraph 10:

579
1 "Terry was gone from my house for a
2 while. Terry returned to my house
3 later and asked if Stevie had come
4 by. When I said, 'no,' I
5 volunteered to go out with Terry
6 to ride with him to look for
7 Stevie."
8 Paragraph 11:
9 "Terry and I drove around the
10 neighborhood for approximately 10
11 to 15 minutes looking for Stevie.
12 We drove near some apartments. We
13 did not stop at any houses or talk
14 to anyone at this point."
15 Paragraph 11:
16 "Terry then dropped me off at my
17 house and said he was going to
18 check a few other places for
19 Stevie. I believe Terry again
20 left alone with Amanda staying at
21 my house."
22 Do you disagree with anything
23 Mr. Jacoby says in those statements?
24 A I don't recall none of that.

580
1 Q So, those statements are possibly
2 true?
3 A Possibly not.
4 Q But they are possibly true?
5 A Could not be.
6 Q But they could be, sir. My question
7 is: Could they be true?
8 MR. THOMAS: Objection; calls for
9 speculation.
10 A At the same time, they could not be.
11 Q (By Ms. Davis) If you will say, "yes,
12 they could be true," I will let you say, "and,
13 yes, they may not be."
14 A Yes, they could be; and, yes, they
15 could not be.
16 Q And, in fact, with regard to all of
17 the statements we've read in the declaration
18 from Mr. Jacoby, that's correct, all the
19 statements, according to you, could be true, but
20 they could also not be true. Is that fair?
21 A Okay.
22 Q Paragraph 13:
23 "After a while, Terry drove back to
24 my house. I again went with Terry

581
1 to ride around and look for
2 Stevie. We drove two more times,
3 nearly the same route we had
4 driven before. I remember that we
5 again went by the apartment
6 complex and saw some kids playing.
7 Terry told the kids that he was
8 looking for a little blond headed
9 boy. A little black girl told
10 Terry" -- and there's misprint
11 here -- "he" -- should be she --
12 "had seen that there were some boys
13 riding their bikes near the woods
14 near the apartments, which were
15 the Robin Hood Hills Woods."
16 Is that Paragraph 13 correct?
17 A I don't know. I doubt it.
18 Q It could be true, it could not be
19 true. Is that fair?
20 A Correct. Correct.
21 Q "Terry" -- this is Paragraph 14:
22 "Terry again took me home and
23 dropped me off because it was
24 getting dark, and I was going to

582
1 change clothes and get flashlights
2 to search further. I do not know
3 where Terry went, but I expected
4 him to come back to get me. I
5 believe he took Amanda with him.
6 I changed clothes, but Terry never
7 showed back up."
8 Same situation, that statement could be
9 true, could not be true. Is that your best
10 testimony?
11 A Correct.
12 Q Paragraph 16:
13 "I was not in Robin Hood Hills
14 Woods searching for Stevie or
15 other missing children alone or
16 with Terry Hobbs on May 5th, 1993
17 at or near 6:00 p.m. or 6:30 p.m."
18 Statement could be true, could not be
19 true?
20 A Correct.
21 Q Mr. Hobbs, your journals contradict
22 themselves with regard to the events of May 5th
23 of 1993. Are you aware of that?
24 MR. THOMAS: Objection; asked and

583
1 answered. We went over that extensively on more
2 than one occasion in the previous deposition.
3 Q (By Ms. Davis) You can -- you can
4 answer that.
5 A Well, you -- the time frames might be
6 wrong, but a lot of them events, as I seen them,
7 happened.
8 Q You've told many different versions of
9 what you did after dropping Pam Hobbs off at
10 work around 5:00 p.m. on May 5th of 1993, but in
11 all those versions you were always searching for
12 Stevie the whole time; correct?
13 A Correct.
14 Q Now, David Jacoby is saying that you
15 came over to his house at 5:00 something and
16 played guitar for about an hour.
17 A I don't recall that.
18 Q You've repeatedly said that you were
19 with Mark Byers and Dana Moore at 6:00 p.m., but
20 Dana Moore and Mark Byers say you weren't.
21 A Well, I know we met in their front
22 yard. Like I said, I'm not sure of the time.
23 Q You told the West Memphis Police that
24 you searched the woods with Regina Meek, and she

584
1 said she never went in the woods; correct?
2 A Well, we walked down inside the woods.
3 Q You told the West Memphis Police
4 Department that you were searching the woods
5 with David Jacoby from 6:00 p.m. to 6:30 p.m.,
6 and he says y'all weren't.
7 A Well, I'm not sure of the time.
8 Q You told several different versions
9 about what time you called the police; correct?
10 A I'm sure. I called the police after.
11 Q And now you admit that it was at 9:19
12 p.m., and that was the only time you called ---
13 A That was after I ---
14 Q --- the police.
15 A --- picked Pam up.
16 Q You told Pam that you had Amanda with
17 you the whole time from when you dropped her off
18 at 5:00 p.m. and picked her up at 9:00 p.m., but
19 now you admit that you left her at Jacoby's
20 house; correct?
21 A I didn't tell Pam I had her, and I did
22 leave her at David's house.
23 Q You said you saw a black bum -- in
24 2007, for the first time, you say you saw a

585
1 black bum on May 6th, and Pam says there was
2 no black bum.
3 A There was.
4 Q You said you weren't a sexual
5 molester, and Mildred French says that you broke
6 into her house and attacked her and sexually
7 molested her back in 1982. Stevie told people
8 that you made him molest his sister, and Amanda
9 has written in the journal that she accused you
10 of sexually molesting her when she was four
11 years old.
12 A Well, I didn't do none of that.
13 Q You said you weren't a violent man,
14 but you've admitted you hit your wife.
15 A Slapped her.
16 Q You shot your wife's brother who
17 thought that you were involved in the murders,
18 and he ultimately died from complications of
19 that gunshot wound. Mildred French says you
20 beat your first wife and child. Judy Sadler,
21 Marie Hicks and Jo Lynn McCaughey said Stevie
22 said you beat him. And Amanda, in her own
23 handwriting, prays that your blood will be taken
24 out of her because you were so violent and angry

586
1 and beat the hell out of her. What is your
2 response to that, sir?
3 A I don't have one because all that
4 stuff you just said ain't true.
5 Q And none of it concerns you at all?
6 A Well, you just -- sure, you talk about
7 me like I'm a dog.
8 Q It's not me talking about you, sir.
9 Do you understand that?
10 A I don't believe -- a lot of this stuff
11 in there I don't believe.
12 Q You admit that you have Stevie's
13 prized knife that the rest of the family thought
14 would be with him when he died; correct?
15 A It's possible I still have it.
16 Q Pam Hobbs' family thinks you're
17 involved in the murders; correct?
18 A That's their issues.
19 Q And you have a dispute with every
20 single one of your alibi witnesses: Dana Moore,
21 Mark Byers, Regina Meek.
22 A You said ---
23 Q Let me finish. David Jacoby, Pam
24 Hobbs, every one except four-year-old Amanda;

587
1 correct?
2 A You know what, you're so close to West
3 Memphis Police Department, you could drive --
4 you're welcome to drive over there, look at the
5 videotapes. I'm on the videotape three times
6 going down to the police station asking for
7 help. David Jacoby, Pam Hobbs, Marie Hicks,
8 Jackie Hicks, Sr. were all five of us together
9 going down at that police station.
10 Q Have you ever seen those videotapes?
11 A I don't have to. It's on a recording.
12 MS. DAVIS: Object to the
13 response as being non -- the answer as being
14 nonresponsive.
15 A No.
16 Q (By Ms. Davis) You have never seen the
17 videotapes you're talking about?
18 A No.
19 Q Do you know if they exist?
20 A They've got cameras all over the
21 police department.
22 Q You know they have cameras. Do you
23 know whether the videotapes you're referring to
24 exist?

588
1 A I'm sure they're in the files. I
2 don't know if they exist or not.
3 Q Thank you, sir. You say you were not
4 ever alone on the night of May 5th and the
5 morning of May 6th, and yet David Jacoby says
6 you left his house twice alone and once with
7 just Amanda. That's correct, isn't it, sir?
8 A I don't know.
9 Q No one can corroborate being with you
10 or your whereabouts for the time period from
11 6:00 p.m. to 8:00 or 8:30 p.m. Isn't that true,
12 sir? You don't have anybody ---
13 A My daughter was with me.
14 Q David Jacoby says your daughter was
15 with him.
16 A From the time I dropped Pam off until
17 David got with me. Me and Amanda rode around,
18 we walked around the neighborhood.
19 Q And from 6:00 p.m. to 8:30, according
20 to David Jacoby, he's got Amanda, you don't.
21 A So.
22 Q So my point is, there's not any
23 witness -- not any of your alibi witnesses can
24 confirm your whereabouts from 6:00 p.m. to 8:30

589
1 p.m. Isn't that true, sir?
2 A And you're saying what?
3 Q I'm saying that you don't have an
4 alibi witness for two to two and a half hours on
5 the evening of the murders.
6 A I don't know.
7 Q Does that concern you?
8 A No.
9 Q You say you weren't at the crime
10 scene; but, of course, DNA that matches your's
11 is there; correct?
12 MR. THOMAS: Objection; lack of
13 foundation.
14 A I don't know.
15 Q (By Ms. Davis) You say you weren't at
16 the crime scene, but DNA that matches the friend
17 that you had spent an hour with playing guitar
18 is at the crime scene; correct?
19 A I don't know.
20 MR. THOMAS: Objection; lack of
21 foundation.
22 Q (By Ms. Davis) And you say you didn't
23 see Stevie or Michael Moore or Christopher Byers
24 at all on May 5th of 1993.

590
1 A I didn't.
2 Q And David Jacoby says he saw him when
3 you came over to his house.
4 A You might ask him, but I never seen
5 them on May the 5th.
6 Q If you put all of these statements
7 together and all the evidence together that I've
8 just run through and you're the police, wouldn't
9 you want to look at Terry Hobbs for this murder?
10 MR. THOMAS: Object to the form.
11 A Why don't you take them over to the
12 police and let them look at all this crap.
13 MS. DAVIS: I'll object to that
14 answer as being nonresponsive.
15 Q (By Ms. Davis) The declarations and
16 the evidence on the table as I've just set
17 forth, if you were in charge of figuring out
18 what happened on the night of May 5th of 1993,
19 you would have to look at Terry Hobbs, wouldn't
20 you?
21 MR. THOMAS: Objection; calls for
22 speculation.
23 Q (By Ms. Davis) You wouldn't want to
24 know -- you wouldn't want to look a little

591
1 further into what Terry Hobbs was doing?
2 A No.
3 Q You wouldn't consider Terry Hobbs a
4 suspect?
5 A I think they put that very statement
6 in the -- in the newspaper for everybody to
7 read.
8 Q I'm not sure the police had all that
9 evidence I just listed for you, sir, when they
10 made that statement.
11 A This is not evidence.
12 Q Sure is, sir.
13 A Evidence to what?
14 Q It's evidence of your whereabouts on
15 the nights of May 5th and 6th, and it's sworn
16 to ---
17 A The police know where I was at.
18 Q --- in admissible form.
19 A The police know where I was at that
20 night.
21 Q None of any of this concerns you?
22 A No.
23 Q Do you think it's funny?
24 A No. I think it's a bunch of crap.

592
1 Q Are you aware that 48 Hours has been
2 in Arkansas putting together a television
3 program on all of this new evidence?
4 A No.
5 Q Have they called you or tried to speak
6 to you?
7 A No.
8 Q Did you ever see a photograph of your
9 son, Stevie, on the couch with Damien Echols?
10 A I've heard of one. I don't know if
11 I've seen it or not.
12 Q Did you color your hair at the time of
13 the murders?
14 A No.
15 Q Have you ever colored your hair?
16 A I don't believe so.
17 Q Who is George Taylor?
18 A I don't know.
19 Q What's your Social Security number?
20 A Ain't none of your business.
21 Q Are you refusing to give me your
22 Social Security number?
23 A Yeah.
24 Q What's your driver's license number?

593
1 A I don't know.
2 Q Is it in your wallet?
3 A It is.
4 Q Can you pull it out and get it for me?
5 A Sure. (Witness complied.) 0899----.
6 Q You filed for bankruptcy; correct?
7 A And?
8 Q I'm sorry?
9 A And?
10 Q Did you file for bankruptcy, sir?
11 A Sure.
12 Q You've made a lot of statements like,
13 "and" or "so what" or "so" or -- why do you
14 respond that way?
15 A I don't have to have a reason.
16 Q Are you agitated or irritated that
17 we're going through these details?
18 A No.
19 Q You understand, sir, that by filing
20 this lawsuit, you are the one that put your
21 whereabouts on May 5th and May 6th of 1993
22 into issue?
23 A No.
24 Q You don't believe that happened?

594
1 A It's never been an issue.
2 Q There's an issue about what you were
3 doing on May 5th and May 6th and whether you
4 were involved in those murders.
5 A Issue with who?
6 Q With the court now that you have filed
7 this lawsuit?
8 A With what court?
9 Q The court ---
10 A The courts did not think I'm an issue,
11 as you put it.
12 Q In The United States District Court
13 For The Eastern District Of Arkansas, Western
14 Division, by filing this lawsuit, you understand
15 that you put all this in issue. It was your
16 action.
17 A The courts do not think I'm an issue
18 in this murder.
19 Q And you base that on the comments made
20 by the West Memphis Police Department; correct?
21 A I base that on the justice system. I
22 base that on the truth. I base that on belief.
23 Q When did you file for bankruptcy?
24 A Couldn't tell you.

595
1 Q Was it in the '90s?
2 A I'm not sure.
3 Q Could have been the '80s?
4 A It could have been.
5 Q Was it before or after the murders?
6 A After.
7 Q Do you recall how long it was after?
8 A I don't.
9 Q What were the circumstances that
10 caused you to file for bankruptcy?
11 A I don't recall.
12 Q Have you received any charitable
13 donations from people that were sympathetic to
14 the family situation that you were in following
15 the murder of Stevie?
16 A Have I received?
17 Q Yes.
18 A Our families -- all three families
19 did.
20 Q How much did your family receive?
21 A I couldn't tell you.
22 Q More than 10,000?
23 A I couldn't tell you.
24 Q More than 20,000?

596
1 A I couldn't tell you.
2 Q More than 50,000?
3 MR. THOMAS: Objection; calls for
4 speculation.
5 A I'm not sure.
6 MR. THOMAS: He's already said he
7 couldn't tell you.
8 Q (By Ms. Davis) Is it more than
9 100,000?
10 A I'm not sure.
11 Q I presume you're sure that was it more
12 than a million?
13 A I don't know.
14 Q It could have been more than a
15 million?
16 A Or it could not have been.
17 Q Right. We're back to that. It's
18 possible that you've received, through
19 charitable donations, you and your family, more
20 than a million dollars? It's also possible you
21 didn't?
22 A Correct.
23 MR. THOMAS: Objection; calls for
24 speculation.

597
1 Q (By Ms. Davis) How -- what would be
2 the best way for me to determine how much your
3 family received as a result of charitable
4 donations arising from people's sympathy over
5 the murder of Stevie?
6 A Ask Father Tinsley. He was in charge
7 of the funds.
8 Q Have you received any funds from
9 people sympathetic to your situation following
10 the death of Stevie, other than the funds you
11 received through this Father Tinsley?
12 A Not that I recall.
13 Q Is it possible you did?
14 A Here we go.
15 Q It's possible you did and possible you
16 didn't?
17 A I didn't. I don't recall.
18 Q Well, are you sure you didn't or do
19 you not recall whether you did or not?
20 A I don't believe we have.
21 Q If we take the charitable gifts that
22 you received from people sympathetic to your
23 situation following the murder of Stevie and we
24 add the amounts that you received from the sale

598
1 of your life rights to Dimension Films, are
2 there any other sums of money that you or the
3 Hobbs family received arising out of the murder
4 of Stevie?
5 A Not that I can recall.
6 Q What did you do with the money that
7 you received from Dimension Films?
8 A I don't remember.
9 Q Do you remember buying a canary yellow
10 truck?
11 A Well, I didn't know it was a canary.
12 Q You do remember buying a yellow truck?
13 A I do.
14 Q Does that refresh your recollection
15 that what you did with the funds that you
16 received from the sale of your life story to
17 Dimension Films and the sale of Stevie's life
18 story to Dimension Films was buy a yellow truck?
19 A I'm not sure if we sold Stevie's
20 rights in that or not, but I did buy it -- take
21 part of it to buy that truck.
22 Q What did you do with the rest of it?
23 A Couldn't tell you.
24 Q Did Amanda ever run away from home

599
1 while she was living with you?
2 A I don't know.
3 Q Do you have any recollection of
4 calling the police and reporting that Amanda had
5 run away in 2004?
6 A No, not right off.
7 Q Doesn't ring a bell?
8 A No.
9 Q Did Pam Hobbs get a restraining order
10 against you in 2005?
11 A I'm not sure.
12 Q That doesn't ring a bell either?
13 A I'm not sure. No, it don't ring a
14 bell.
15 Q Did you have a breakdown in 1993 or
16 1994?
17 A No.
18 Q If your journal says you had a
19 breakdown in 1993 or '94, would that be the
20 case?
21 A I don't believe my journal says that.
22 Q If your journal did say that, would
23 you argue with it?
24 MR. THOMAS: Objection; calls for

600
1 speculation.
2 Q (By Ms. Davis) Can we rely on your
3 journal?
4 A It's just something I was trying to
5 write a story about.
6 Q I -- you've said that before. Clarify
7 that for me. Are you trying to write a fiction
8 story or are you trying to accurately record the
9 events that occurred on May 5th?
10 A I'm just trying to write a story.
11 Q What does "a story" mean?
12 A To me, this is a story. Just a story.
13 Q A true story?
14 A I don't know if it's true. I don't --
15 I would like to think I'm doing my best with it.
16 Have you ever tried writing something about
17 something like this?
18 Q Mr. Hobbs, do you even know what's
19 true regarding the events of May 5th or May
20 6th of 1993?
21 A Sure do.
22 Q That just may not be included in your
23 journals. Is that correct?
24 A Well, that might be your theory.

601
1 Q And it might not be included in your
2 Dimension Films interview, the truth; correct?
3 A Well, you can call it what you want.
4 Q And it might not, the truth, be
5 included in your interview with the West Memphis
6 Police Department; correct?
7 A Call it what you want.
8 Q Are all those statements true, sir?
9 A I wouldn't put stock in none of your
10 statements.
11 Q Your -- your accounts to those
12 different entities may or may not be true.
13 That's correct, isn't it, sir?
14 A I'm not sure.
15 MS. DAVIS: Let's take a break
16 and let me see where we're at.
17 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the end of
18 Tape 2 of the videotape deposition of Mr. Terry
19 Hobbs. The time is approximately 11:16 a.m.
20 (Brief recess.)
21 VIDEOGRAPHER: This is the
22 beginning of Tape 3 of the videotape deposition
23 of Mr. Terry Hobbs. The time is approximately
24 11:29 a.m.

602
1 Q (By Ms. Davis) Mr. Hobbs, can I get
2 you to produce copies of any Social Security
3 card that you have?
4 A Why you need that?
5 Q Because there -- in some of the
6 records related to you there appear to be two or
7 even more Social Security numbers associated
8 with you, and we're trying to bear down
9 on which ---
10 A I've had one all my life.
11 Q And can you agree to produce that
12 actual card?
13 A No.
14 Q You're refusing to produce that actual
15 card?
16 A Yeah.
17 Q On what basis?
18 A It's irrelevant.
19 Q Do you believe that you still have the
20 card?
21 A I have it in my wallet as I sit here.
22 Q And you know your Social Security
23 number right now, but you are simply refusing to
24 provide us that information?

603
1 A You already have it.
2 Q We have a number that you put on the
3 top of the medical authorization form. Is that
4 what you're talking about?
5 A Probably. It's on your police report.
6 Q And my question to you is: Can we
7 corroborate the actual card with the number put
8 on the medical authorization form?
9 A I don't know if you can or not.
10 Q Well, we could if we could see it.
11 A Ain't none of your business.
12 Q You've already -- if you've already
13 given me the number and you can ---
14 A It's on your ---
15 Q Let me finish my question, sir. If
16 you've already given me the Social Security
17 number and you can prove it's your Social
18 Security number by producing to me that Social
19 Security card, why would you refuse to prove
20 that that's the correct number by doing so?
21 A Because it's irrelevant.
22 Q Have you ever had more than one Social
23 Security number?
24 A No.

604
1 Q And if the records at the courthouse
2 in Shelby County, Tennessee reflect different
3 Social Security numbers for you, do you have any
4 explanation as to how that could come to be?
5 A No, I don't.
6 Q Have you ever provided to police or
7 other authorities a Social Security number
8 different than whatever the number is on the
9 card sitting in your wallet?
10 A No.
11 Q Let me direct your attention to
12 Exhibits 6 and 7 that were previously marked at
13 your deposition. Can you flip those open?
14 A (Witness complied.)
15 Q They're the answers to interrogatories
16 filed in this case. Am I correct in stating
17 that your lawyers drafted responses to those
18 questions and submitted them to you for your
19 review and you signed a verification on those?
20 THE WITNESS: Did we?
21 Q Don't ask your lawyer. I'm just
22 asking for your best recollection of what
23 occurred.
24 A I'm not sure.

605
1 Q You didn't sit down and type up the
2 answers to these questions that are in Exhibit 6
3 and 7, did you?
4 A What's your question?
5 Q My question is: Is what happened is
6 the chronology, so to speak, that your lawyers
7 drafted or typed up these responses for you, you
8 looked at them, and then signed the
9 verification, which is the last page on six and
10 seven?
11 A If my signature is on there, I
12 probably did it.
13 Q Let me show you right here
14 (indicating).
15 A That's my signature.
16 Q So, I'm correct in the way this came
17 down; your lawyers typed up responses, sent them
18 to you, you reviewed them, and then signed the
19 verification?
20 A I guess.
21 Q Does that sound right, sir?
22 A Yeah.
23 Q And that's true for both Exhibits 6
24 and 7?

606
1 A I guess, yeah.
2 Q And did you ever tell your ex-wife,
3 Pam Hobbs, that you could kill a person and hide
4 the body where no one would find it?
5 A No.
6 Q You're sure?
7 A Yeah.
8 MS. DAVIS: I'll pass the
9 witness.
10 MR. THOMAS: We'll go off the
11 record and we'll do the mikes.
12 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
13 the record. The time is approximately 11:33 a.m.
14 (Brief recess.)
15 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now back on
16 the record. The time is approximately 11:35 a.m.
17 DIRECT EXAMINATION
18 BY MR. WELLENBERGER:
19 Q Mr. Hobbs, my name is Bob
20 Wellenberger, and I represent the Dixie Chicks;
21 and you've already been questioned quite a bit
22 about this. I'm going to do my best not to go
23 over old ground. So, if I start going there,
24 y'all just say, "that's been covered." I'll

 

607

1 confer with co-counsel here, and then if it has,
2 I'll just drop it.
3 Who is Keith E----?
4 A I'm not sure.
5 Q What is the Victim's Voice 527?
6 A The victim's boys?
7 Q Voice. It's a 527 organization that
8 Mr. E---- formed. Are you familiar with that at
9 all?
10 A I don't think so.
11 Q Okay. I just -- Mr. E---- is listed
12 on your disclosures as a person with knowledge
13 of relevant facts. You -- but you don't know
14 what those facts are?
15 A Keith E----?
16 Q Yeah, right.
17 A Not at the moment. I can't recall.
18 Q Okay. Now, the time of death of the
19 three boys was placed between 1:00 a.m. and
20 7:00 a.m. on May 6th by the medical examiner.
21 Do you recall that testimony?
22 A Something like that.
23 Q And if you were in the woods from
24 1:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m., would you have

608
1 noticed -- I mean, do you think you would have
2 noticed something going on if there was activity
3 in that -- in the woods?
4 A You would think so.
5 Q And, I mean, I'm curious, and I think
6 there is a lot of curiosity about whether that's
7 where the murders actually happened. Do you
8 have a belief as to whether the murders of the
9 three boys actually happened in Robin Hood Hills
10 Woods?
11 A Well, the police say that's where it
12 happened.
13 Q Okay. And so, you're just satisfied
14 that that's where it happened?
15 A I had to be satisfied with something.
16 Q Okay. And let's go back to the day
17 that the West Memphis 3 were arraigned for
18 murdering Stevie and his two friends. Do you
19 remember that day when -- when they were first
20 brought into the courtroom and charged,
21 arraigned with murdering the three boys?
22 A Yes, sir.
23 Q Now, Stevie's biological father had to
24 be physically restrained from attacking Damien

609
1 Echols. Is that right?
2 A Correct.
3 Q And then your wife at the time, Pam
4 Hobbs, Stevie's mother, had to be removed from
5 the courtroom because she kept hollering,
6 "punks, punks, punks" at the three?
7 A Correct.
8 Q And you went out with Pam Hobbs when
9 she had to leave the courtroom. Is that
10 correct?
11 A Correct.
12 Q And you were interviewed by the police
13 at the time; correct -- or not by the police,
14 but by the press when you left?
15 A Correct.
16 Q And Pam made statements about the
17 three -- the West Memphis 3 being -- how she
18 would like to beat their heads against the wall,
19 something to that affect?
20 A All right.
21 Q And you made a statement that it was
22 difficult for you to restrain yourself, that you
23 were looking for a rail to jump over or some way
24 to get at the three yourself.

610
1 A Probably so.
2 Q It was hard to restrain yourself.
3 A Probably.
4 Q And, I mean, you at that point had
5 formed a belief that these three had killed
6 Stevie and his two friends; correct?
7 A We didn't know until that day.
8 Q But on that day, you learned about
9 Mr. Misskelley's confession? How did -- how did
10 you form the belief on that day that these three
11 did the killings?
12 A We were called -- the police called us
13 and told us to be at the court on this day, that
14 we would find -- we would see the three boys
15 that were charged with killing our kids.
16 Q But what made you so convinced -- I
17 mean, Stevie's biological father is having to be
18 physically restrained. Pam is hollering,
19 "punks, punks, punks," and you're looking for a
20 way to get at him yourself. What made you so
21 convinced at that point in time of their guilt?
22 A At this time, you don't know what to
23 think. You know, we -- we got the phone call
24 from the police, and we showed up, and this is

611
1 what we showed up to.
2 Q Okay. But is it -- is it fair of me
3 to say that at that point in time, on the date
4 they're arraigned, you believed they're guilty?
5 A Probably so.
6 Q Because the police said so?
7 A Right.
8 Q Okay. Now, during each of the
9 trials -- and there was a trial for
10 Mr. Misskelley and a trial for Mr. Echols and
11 Mr. Baldwin. Were you present for each day of
12 the trials?
13 A Yes, sir.
14 Q Did -- did you and Pam sit towards the
15 front of the courtroom?
16 A Probably so, yeah.
17 Q Was there kind of a place reserved for
18 you and the other families of the three children
19 that were killed?
20 A Kind of, yes, sir.
21 Q And -- and you were there behind the
22 prosecution's table?
23 A I don't recall that to be correct.
24 Q Well, you remember -- remember the

612
1 prosecutor is sitting there. They have a table
2 that's next to the jury box; right?
3 A Yeah, but I don't recall if we sit
4 behind them every day, every trial.
5 Q Okay. All right.
6 A I know we was there.
7 Q But is it fair to say that while you
8 were attending those trials, that you were
9 hoping and believing that the jury would find
10 these boys guilty?
11 A We hoped and believed the truth comes
12 out and that justice takes it -- does its thing.
13 Q Okay. But in your mind at the time --
14 and correct me if I'm wrong, but in your mind at
15 the time, you believed these boys killed Stevie
16 and his two friends; right?
17 A Right.
18 Q And you wanted -- and in your mind,
19 justice was that they be convicted and punished.
20 Is that -- is that right?
21 A Yes, sir.
22 Q And so, in the newspaper -- when the
23 newspaper interviewed you or when a friend asked
24 you what your thoughts were, it was that, "I

613
1 would like for these boys to get what they gave
2 to my Stevie."
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q You would -- you expressed I think
5 that you would like to have ten minutes alone
6 with each of them to do to them what they did to
7 Stevie.
8 A Correct.
9 Q Have you ever varied from that belief?
10 A Probably not.
11 Q And to this day, I mean, you're
12 sitting here, you're calling Ms. Pasdar, the
13 Dixie Chicks, the -- anybody that supports the
14 West Memphis 3, you're wanting to know what kind
15 of person would give money and advocate
16 releasing killers from prison?
17 A Correct. Yes, sir.
18 Q And your whole function here -- I
19 mean, one of your primary functions in this
20 lawsuit is to -- to chill the rights of people
21 to advocate for their release?
22 MR. THOMAS: Object to the extent
23 that it calls for a legal conclusion. Go on and
24 answer.

614
1 A Would you repeat the question?
2 Q (By Mr. Wellenberger) One of the
3 purposes that you're trying to do here in this
4 lawsuit is to chill the rights of other people.
5 You want to -- just to chill the rights of other
6 people to advocate for the release of the West
7 Memphis 3.
8 MR. THOMAS: Same objection.
9 Q (By Mr. Wellenberger) Is that -- is
10 that one purpose of this lawsuit?
11 A One of them.
12 Q Now, Stevie had some friends. Dawn
13 Moore was his girlfriend?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q He had gone and bought her a
16 five-dollar gift or something. Is that right?
17 A A little ring.
18 Q Yeah. And then Erin Hutchinson was --
19 I don't know whether he was a friend or an
20 acquaintance, but I think he knew Stevie, didn't
21 he?
22 A They all went to school together.
23 Q In the same Cub Scout group together?
24 A I believe.

615
1 Q And Erin had been to your house to
2 play, hadn't he?
3 A I believe so.
4 Q And then is there a neighborhood girl
5 named Kim that rode bikes with the boys?
6 A Kim? I don't recall that name.
7 Q Well, in the time since, you know,
8 Stevie was found dead, have you ever gone back
9 and tried to piece together where the boys were
10 after they left your house and before they went
11 missing?
12 A Oh, I'm sure.
13 Q I mean, did you ever find out where
14 they were, where they were riding their bikes,
15 what they were doing?
16 A I never found that out, but I've tried
17 to -- wondered where they were during this time.
18 Q There was some talk about -- there was
19 a street called W.E. Catt Street (sic), which
20 was about a block or two off of 14th Street.
21 A I'm not sure about that.
22 Q Okay. Well, there was some report
23 that they were riding bicycles on W.E. Catt
24 Street with Kim. That's in the police notes.

616
1 Would you -- did you ever follow up or find
2 anything out about that?
3 A No, sir.
4 Q Okay. Did you ever -- did you ever
5 sit down with Mr. Byers' or Ms. Beyrs' older boy
6 and talk to him about any of this?
7 A Ryan?
8 Q Ryan. Ryan Clark. Isn't it Ryan
9 Clark?
10 A It is.
11 Q Did you ever sit down with Ryan and
12 talk about any of this?
13 A I've -- I've talked to him a few
14 times. I don't -- that's been years ago.
15 Q Did Ryan go through the hearing a
16 gunshot or what he thought might be a gunshot
17 from Robin Hood Woods at 9:00 -- about 9:00 p.m.
18 on May 5th?
19 A I don't remember.
20 Q Did you ever talk to -- to Ryan about
21 seeing the black man on the 7th Street bridge?
22 A No. Ryan was just a child.
23 Q He was, what, 13, 14?
24 A Right.

617
1 Q But he and some of his friends were
2 out looking through those woods, weren't they?
3 A They were.
4 Q And I think you talked to Ryan that
5 night about maybe there was a manhole or
6 something where they might be.
7 A Right.
8 Q Do you remember that conversation?
9 A I do.
10 Q Could you tell me the conversation?
11 A I remember some of it. They were
12 going to go look and see if they was in that
13 manhole.
14 Q Do you know where that manhole was
15 located?
16 A No.
17 Q Was it behind the Weaver Elementary
18 School?
19 A I'm not sure where it was at. Still
20 don't know where it's at.
21 Q Going back to the time of death, if
22 the boys were there in those woods from
23 1:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m., that's when they died,
24 that's when they were put in that ditch because

618
1 two of them drowned -- you went to the trials --
2 could any one of the three West Memphis 3 have
3 been there from 1:00 a.m. to 7:00 a.m.?
4 A I'm not sure. I'm not sure. That's a
5 three-acre area that you're talking about. When
6 you say, "woods" ---
7 Q Yeah.
8 A --- it's three acres, and there --
9 it's a pretty good piece of land.
10 Q I just -- that time of death is
11 confusing. Because you think, you know,
12 something bad happened to those boys between
13 6:30 and 9:00 or something, right after they
14 disappeared, instead of at 1:00 a.m. to
15 7:00 a.m. Didn't -- didn't you think that?
16 A I'm not sure when -- what -- I know
17 what the court said, and I'm not sure of the
18 time of death. I had to believe what the courts
19 say.
20 Q Well, but -- but based on -- based on
21 your thoughts at the time, didn't you think that
22 somebody had gotten them, you know, between 6:30
23 and 9:00 that somebody got them?
24 A We thought all kinds of things back

619
1 then.
2 Q Now, you worked at the Memphis Ice
3 Cream Company?
4 A Yes, sir.
5 Q And David Jacoby worked there also;
6 correct?
7 A Correct.
8 Q But -- now, you had a sales route?
9 A I did.
10 Q You drove a freezer truck?
11 A Correct.
12 Q And David had a sales route and he
13 drove a freezer truck?
14 A Yes, sir.
15 Q And did the Memphis Ice Cream Company
16 operate at night?
17 A No, no.
18 Q It was just shut down?
19 A Well, we -- it was -- we showed up to
20 work and worked until you got through, and you
21 went home.
22 Q Okay. But my -- did they have a shift
23 that worked at night?
24 A No, sir.

620
1 Q So, when you brought your trucks back
2 to the Ice Cream Company, you had a place where
3 they parked -- you were supposed to park them;
4 correct?
5 A Correct.
6 Q And was that inside or outside of a
7 fence?
8 A Inside a fence.
9 Q Did you have a key to the lock so that
10 you could get into the -- get in to get your
11 truck when you needed it?
12 A Sure.
13 Q Did -- did they make ice cream there
14 at that ---
15 A No, sir.
16 Q --- location? All right. So, how
17 did -- how did you get ice cream to put in your
18 truck?
19 A When we come in at the end of the day,
20 we would load our trucks up before we went home
21 or we would load them -- if we didn't want to
22 load them at the end of the day, we would load
23 them in the morning before we took off.
24 Q And where did that ice cream come

621
1 from?
2 A It come shipped in on 18-wheelers.
3 Q So, 18-wheelers would be there, you
4 would unload from the 18-wheelers into your
5 truck?
6 A No, sir. The 18-wheelers onto our
7 freeze -- into our freezers.
8 Q And how long had you worked at Memphis
9 Ice Cream?
10 A All together, about ten years.
11 Q And how long after Stevie's death did
12 you work there?
13 A I started in '89. It happened in '93,
14 and I was there to '98.
15 Q So, even though Pam moved to
16 Blytheville -- or y'all moved to Blytheville and
17 moved in with her family after Stevie's death,
18 you still worked at Memphis Ice Cream?
19 A Yes, sir.
20 Q So, what is that, about an hour and a
21 half commute?
22 A About an hour.
23 Q And how long did you stay in
24 Blytheville?

622
1 A Not long. I'm not sure of the length,
2 but it wasn't long.
3 Q Now, Pam had known David Jacoby from
4 Blytheville; right?
5 A Yes.
6 Q And you really -- Pam introduced you
7 to David Jacoby; right?
8 A Correct.
9 Q How long had David Jacoby worked at
10 Memphis Ice Cream?
11 A I got David a job there, and I'm not
12 sure how long he was there.
13 Q Was that like in '92 -- '91, '92?
14 A Roughly.
15 Q But he had been there a year or so?
16 A I don't think he had been there a year
17 yet. I'm just guessing now.
18 Q Now, your route on -- let's just -- I
19 don't want to try to say May 5. I don't want to
20 put you through a memory test of where all you
21 went on May 5, but just give me a typical day of
22 delivering ice cream from Memphis Ice Cream
23 Company, where you would go, and how long it
24 would take, and when you would get off.

623
1 A I usually try to get to work 5:30,
2 6:00 -- 5:00, 5:30, 6:00, something like that to
3 leave. Go run my route and probably come in
4 1:30, 2:00, 2:30. You know, just if you got
5 there and you beat the heat during the summer,
6 that's what it's about. That's the way I done
7 it.
8 Q And you would get back at 1:30 or
9 2:00, and then you would have to load up ice
10 cream for the next day in your truck?
11 A If you didn't load it the next
12 morning.
13 Q Okay. So, some days you would get up
14 like at 3:30 and get there real early and load
15 up ice cream and other days -- all right, tell
16 me.
17 A No, I never get up at 3:30. No. I
18 would get up at 5:00, try to be at work by 6:00,
19 right between 5:30 and 6:00, and get it loaded.
20 If it was already loaded, get on the truck and
21 leave.
22 Q And your route would take you to -- to
23 Mississippi?
24 A No, I had five routes.

624
1 Q Okay. I'm just trying to get an idea
2 of what your normal route would be during --
3 during the May 1993 time period.
4 A Say, six, seven-hour route.
5 Q Okay. And, I mean, would go to
6 Mississippi?
7 A One or two days Mississippi, one or
8 two days Arkansas -- or Tennessee, and one day
9 Arkansas.
10 Q How far -- how far west in Arkansas
11 did you go?
12 A Forest City.
13 Q And then north and south of ---
14 A Yeah, Forest City, around the loop to
15 Horseshoe Lake, and back through West Memphis.
16 Q And how far south into Mississippi did
17 you go?
18 A Hernando, 50 miles. Say, roughly
19 50 miles, round trip.
20 Q Okay. And then into eastern -- how
21 far east into Tennessee did you go?
22 A City, Collierville, Oakland, just
23 locally.
24 Q And how many stops roughly would you

625
1 have a day?
2 A I had 110 a week.
3 Q A hundred and ten a week?
4 A Roughly.
5 Q Do you still see any of those old
6 customers?
7 A I have. I've run across some of them.
8 Q There was one or two that it was
9 really hard for you to go -- and I may be wrong
10 about this, but I was thinking it was really
11 hard for you to go to their stores after Stevie
12 because they were so sorry about what happened
13 to Stevie, and there -- that it made you relive
14 things. Does that -- does that ring a bell?
15 A Sure.
16 Q Who were those folks?
17 A I had a lot of customers that was like
18 that. All of my customers really thought a lot
19 of me because of what I done; and when this
20 happened to us, it's just like I belonged to
21 them. They took it that personal. And they had
22 taken a liking to me, and I would go in their
23 stores. They would cry, you know, and they
24 would get emotional about it and -- and which

626
1 would bother me, you know, and I would go --
2 just want to do my job but end up having to
3 stand there and either cry with them or try to
4 get them to quit crying. You know, that's how
5 it bothered me, and that's how they took up to
6 me.
7 Q How long did that -- I mean, obviously
8 that didn't go on until 1998. I mean, you
9 got -- they got past that point, I would think,
10 in their relationship ---
11 A Some of them.
12 Q --- with you.
13 A Some of them. Some of them didn't.
14 Q Now, who was the father that -- you
15 gave a name of a father who handled the money
16 for the charitable ---
17 A Father Tinsley.
18 Q Now, which church was he with?
19 A The Episcopalpalian (sic) Church of
20 West Memphis.
21 Q The churches were really -- I mean, I
22 know the Episcopal Church, that's where the Cub
23 Scout group was part of that.
24 A Right.

627
1 Q And I think the Moores went to church
2 there.
3 A Yes, sir.
4 Q And so -- I mean, they were kind of
5 central church in this, but do you remember any
6 of the other churches really getting involved in
7 some fashion in ---
8 A No. You would see on their boards,
9 "pray for the families." You know, you would
10 see that, but not direct involvement, not to my
11 knowledge.
12 Q Do you recall after the Misskelley
13 confession was published that there was -- I
14 think, there was an editorial by the West
15 Memphis newspaper about addressing the problem
16 with Satanism. Do you -- do you recall any
17 effort in West Memphis in the churches after
18 Mr. Misskelley's confession was published in
19 that regard?
20 A Probably not.
21 Q Okay. Do you remember an affidavit
22 that was signed by an officer named John Slater
23 of the West Memphis Police Department?
24 A No.

628
1 Q It seems like there was a shift change
2 at 11:00 p.m. with West Memphis Police
3 Department. Does that sound right?
4 A No. It was around 9:00.
5 Q You think it was 9:00?
6 A I'm thinking it was 9:00. Because
7 when we was out there at the woods, Regina had
8 to go for shift change.
9 Q Mr. Slater -- Officer Slater said that
10 apparently they dropped the ball at shift change
11 and nobody brought up these three missing
12 children. Is that kind of accurate as far as --
13 I mean, you didn't see any other police officers
14 out there after Regina Meek left, did you?
15 A It was after shift change. There was
16 another officer that come out.
17 Q Was that Officer Moore?
18 A I'm not sure.
19 Q Officer Moore was the person that you
20 made the police report to, I believe.
21 A We -- I think we talked to Regina
22 Meeks.
23 Q Well, Regina ---
24 A Seems like I remember Officer Moore's

629
1 name, but I don't recall.
2 Q I don't want to try to confuse
3 anything, and I don't want to get out a bunch of
4 papers and start reading it.
5 A Right.
6 Q But my recollection is is that Officer
7 Meek took the police report for Byers and Moore
8 at Mr. Byers' house in the 8:00 o'clock time
9 frame.
10 A Something like that.
11 Q And then Officer Moore responded to
12 the catfish place where your wife worked to take
13 the missing persons report on Stevie. I'm not
14 trying to confuse anything. But, now, you
15 were -- you remember Officer Meek, and do you
16 also remember Officer Moore?
17 A I remember the name Officer Moore.
18 Q Okay. This Dimension Films contract
19 you signed, do you have -- do you know what that
20 was going to be based on?
21 A Yeah, that book about the Devil's
22 Knot.
23 Q Now, that's saying to me that you
24 would be a fan of the Devil's Knot. Are you a

630
1 fan of that book?
2 A No.
3 Q Do you think that book accurately
4 portrays what the West Memphis Police Department
5 did?
6 A I really haven't read it.
7 Q Okay. But you -- you're going to make
8 a movie based on a book that you don't think is
9 right. Is that accurate?
10 A I haven't read the book, and I'm not a
11 fan of Mara Leveritt and we -- I believe we were
12 led to believe that we -- our input would be
13 accounted.
14 Q So, in other words, you would be able
15 to advocate that the West Memphis Police
16 Department had done a good job, and that the
17 prosecution had done a good job, and that they
18 got the right three boys, and they needed to
19 stay where they were, except for Damien, and he
20 needed to go on past the next gate?
21 A Okay.
22 Q Is that -- is that ---
23 A Somewhat.
24 Q Okay. And then, of course, there was

631
1 the 12,500 dollars. I am -- I am sure that that
2 money came in helpful to you and to Pam. Is
3 that accurate?
4 A I'm sure it did.
5 Q Okay. And at the time you're doing
6 the Dimension Films, is trying to do justice for
7 Stevie even a part of that at this point?
8 A Probably to some degree.
9 Q Now, tell me about that. I mean,
10 just -- what is this doing justice for Stevie
11 about?
12 A Because we felt like this HBO made
13 some bad documentaries. You know, they led us
14 one way and done another, and we wanted to
15 somewhere along the line try to correct that,
16 and I -- when this come along, we probably
17 caught ourself doing that.
18 Q And by "correcting it," you mean ---
19 A Get out some of the truth as we knew
20 it.
21 Q And the truth will be like that Jessie
22 Misskelley gave four confessions, not one?
23 A Okay.
24 Q I mean, is that part of the truth?

632
1 A If that -- that means a
2 (unintelligible).
3 Q Well, I mean, I'm -- I'm not -- I'm
4 not telling you answers. I'm asking you
5 questions.
6 A I'm not disputing his confessions. He
7 did that, not me.
8 Q And you believe his confessions;
9 correct?
10 A I have no reason not to.
11 Q Now, what -- I mean, you're wanting
12 this film to come in and say the West Memphis 3
13 killed Stevie and his two friends, and they
14 deserve the punishment they got. I mean, that's
15 the -- that's your -- that's part of why you're
16 doing the Dimension Films contract; correct?
17 A I'm not sure about that.
18 Q Okay. What -- what are you unsure
19 about then?
20 A I mean, if that was our mission -- I
21 ain't going to say that that was our mission.
22 Q Was that one of your missions?
23 A It could have been. I'm not sure.
24 Q Well, I mean, I thought you thought

633
1 you were going to set the record straight on
2 something.
3 A We've been aggravated about the Dim --
4 or the HBO ever since that happened.
5 Q And because it was sympathetic to the
6 West Memphis 3?
7 A It portrayed them in the wrong manner.
8 Q And they should have been portrayed
9 as ---
10 A What they are.
11 Q --- killers; correct?
12 A What they are.
13 Q Well, I mean, that's killers; right?
14 A Correct.
15 Q What did the Dixie Chicks do to you?
16 A They took my name, like everyone else,
17 and spread it around the globe that the new
18 DNA -- and everybody at the time knew what the
19 new DNA was about, and that was a wrong --
20 misleading everybody.
21 Q Well, how was the DNA misleading
22 anybody?
23 A No one's ever said it was my DNA
24 except that defense team.

634
1 Q Well, the -- okay. But what did the
2 Dixie Chicks' posting, Natalie Pasdar -- what
3 statements did the Dixie Chicks make?
4 A The same as everybody else. They let
5 it be posted on their internet website, kept it
6 up there damn near two years.
7 Q Okay. So, they allowed Natalie
8 Pasdar's letter to be posted on the website?
9 A I didn't do it.
10 Q Well, I mean, that's my question.
11 That's what they did wrong, they allowed Natalie
12 Pasdar's letter to be posted?
13 A (Unintelligible).
14 Q I'm asking you if that's what they did
15 wrong, in your opinion.
16 A Well, in my opinion, it is.
17 Q Now, you're not saying that the Dixie
18 Chicks participated -- as a group, participated
19 in the Little Rock Rally, are you?
20 A We all know who was there.
21 Q Well, that was Natalie Pasdar;
22 correct?
23 A Correct.
24 Q And she didn't -- she wasn't there

635
1 representing the Dixie Chicks, was she?
2 A She's known as a lead singer of the
3 Dixie Chicks. That was in the papers.
4 Q Okay. So, she can be a lead singer of
5 the Dixie Chicks but still have a life separate
6 and apart from the Dixie Chicks, can't she?
7 A I don't know. That's up to them.
8 MR. WELLENBERGER: I'm going to
9 take a break and see if there's -- I think we're
10 about done.
11 VIDEOGRAPHER: We're going off
12 the record. The time is approximately 12:07 p.m.
13 (Lunch recess.)
14 VIDEOGRAPHER: We are now back on
15 the record. The time is approximately 1:00 p.m.
16 (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 33
17 was marked to the testimony
18 of the witness.)
19 Q (By Mr. Wellenberger) Mr. Hobbs, I
20 had you look at Exhibit 33 during the lunch
21 break, and is this a copy of an article that was
22 in the Memphis Commercial Appeal following the
23 arraignment of the West Memphis 3?
24 MR. THOMAS: We can stipulate to

636
1 these two articles under the same terms and
2 conditions of Stipulation No. 1 and Stipulation
3 No. 4 that are already filed.
4 MR. WELLENBERGER: Okay. So
5 that's -- that's exhibit -- Deposition Exhibits
6 20 and 33 are subject to the same stipulation as
7 the articles attached to Stipulation No. 1.
8 MS. DAVIS: Agreed.
9 (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 34
10 was marked to the testimony
11 of the witness.)
12 Q (By Mr. Wellenberger) When you were
13 out looking for the boys, were you real
14 concerned before dark?
15 A Sure.
16 Q Now, is -- was it unusual for Stevie
17 and his friends maybe there to get off and get
18 gone and miss meals or be late?
19 A No. I can't speak for his friends. I
20 speak for Stevie; but, no, we kept a tight rope
21 -- or keep up with him pretty good.
22 Q So, it was really unusual for him not
23 to be home at the appointed hour?
24 A Yes, sir.

637
1 Q And so you were really concerned?
2 A I was.
3 Q I'm going to hand you what I've marked
4 as Exhibit 34, which is just kind of a street
5 map, as I understand it, of where you and the
6 Byers and the Moores lived. Is that -- does
7 that -- does that look like an accurate kind of
8 layout of the streets? Forget the ledging on it
9 for right now. But just the streets?
10 A I guess, yeah. Some -- pretty close.
11 Q And they've marked on there at I think
12 it's A and B are the Byers' and the Moores' home
13 and your home has letter C. Is that -- is that
14 accurate as to where those are located?
15 A Seems like we lived on North McAuley,
16 1600 North McAuley, pretty close.
17 Q And then they also have marked on
18 there where the bodies were located or were
19 found with three X's. Do you see that?
20 A I see three X's.
21 Q Is that where the bodies were found?
22 A I'm not sure about that.
23 Q Okay. Now, as I understand it, you
24 were out in the car or on foot looking for the

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1 boys in the afternoon of May the 5th.
2 A Correct.
3 Q After you -- after you had took Pam to
4 work, you came back and you were looking in the
5 neighborhood?
6 A Riding and walking.
7 Q And one neighbor has reported that on
8 Wilson Street -- and I'm looking at Exhibit 34
9 now. On Wilson Street he saw Michael and Stevie
10 on their bicycles, and at one point it looked
11 like Kim was riding with them on Wilson Street.
12 Did -- did you ever go down Wilson Street.
13 Looking for the boys?
14 A Oh, I'm sure I did.
15 Q And you didn't see them anywhere on
16 Wilson Street?
17 A No. And I'm not familiar with this
18 person called Kim.
19 Q Okay. Well, I mean, that's been a
20 long time ago now and I don't know -- I think
21 she was a 10 or an 11-year-old girl that lived
22 in the neighborhood. So, I'm just -- you know,
23 I'm not trying to make you know Kim. I'm
24 just -- that's what was reported. But you had

639
1 never heard that report before today?
2 A About Kim?
3 Q About the boys riding their bikes on
4 Wilson Street.
5 A Well, a lot of people back then would
6 say this street, this street, this street; and
7 sure I'm sure the Wilson Street was in there.
8 Q Okay. You just don't have a specific
9 recollection of that?
10 A Correct.
11 Q And then another gentleman and his son
12 said that at about -- I think it was 5:45 that
13 Stevie and Michael were on W.E. Catt Street. Do
14 you -- and they had on green backpacks. Does
15 that sound right?
16 A No.
17 Q Okay. You don't think they had on
18 green backpacks, do you?
19 A I'm not sure.
20 Q You don't think these boys were
21 planning to run away, do you?
22 A No.
23 Q Okay. Nothing going on at your house
24 that would make Stevie want to -- want to run

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1 away?
2 A Huh-uh.
3 (Whereupon, Exhibit No. 35
4 was marked to the testimony
5 of the witness.)
6 Q (By Mr. Wellenberger) Okay. This is
7 just kind of -- this is Deposition Exhibit 35.
8 Does that look familiar to you? I mean ---
9 A Not really. I mean, if this is West
10 Memphis, if this is the area from an aerial, I
11 can see probably what you're calling Robin Hood,
12 interstate; but I'm not going to say for sure
13 that that's it.
14 Q Okay. Well, let's just -- it's my
15 understanding this is the Blue Beacon Car Wash.
16 Is that -- or truck wash. Does that look right?
17 A Okay. Okay.
18 Q Is that -- I mean ---
19 A If that's what it is.
20 Q Okay. And then this -- the area
21 to ---
22 A East.
23 Q --- my left ---
24 A The east of it.

641
1 Q --- east of it is going to be the
2 wooded area where the bodies were found.
3 The ---
4 A Tenth Mile Bayou.
5 Q --- Ten Mile Bayou, the pipe bridge
6 that goes across, and then the other -- then
7 across the bayou would be the remainder of Robin
8 Hood Woods.
9 A Okay. Right.
10 Q And this is what you're referring to
11 when you say the three acres?
12 A Right.
13 Q Okay. Now, when you were in the woods
14 after dark, did you have flashlights?
15 A Yes, I believe we had some.
16 Q Were those Mr. Jacoby's that he --
17 or ---
18 A We had some too.
19 Q And so you -- you had had to go home
20 to get the flashlights; correct?
21 A I did.
22 Q And then there was -- there was
23 mosquitos and it was pretty -- some of that was
24 pretty rugged. Did you put on long pants and

642
1 boots?
2 A I'm sure I probably had on pants.
3 Q Did you do boots or did you just stay
4 with tennis shoes?
5 A I'm not sure. Probably tennis shoes.
6 Q Did you have Poison Ivy or anything,
7 any kind of reaction like that from being out in
8 those woods?
9 A No, sir.
10 MR. WELLENBERGER: Unless you can
11 think of something else we need to ask, I'm just
12 going say that's it.
13 MS. DAVIS: Thank you, Mr. Hobbs.
14 MR. WELLENBERGER: You guys want
15 to ask some questions while we've got him here on
16 the record?
17 MR. THOMAS: I have no questions.
18 MR. WELLENBERGER: Okay.
19 VIDEOGRAPHER: This concludes the
20 videotape deposition of Mr. Terry Hobbs,
21 consisting of three tapes. The time is
22 approximately 1:08 p.m.
23 FURTHER DEPONENT SAITH NOT.
24 (SIGNATURE PAGE ENCLOSED.)