DIRECT EXAMINATION OF DALE GRIFFIS BY MR. FOGLEMAN:
I consult to criminal justice educators, mental health people, in the area of nontraditional groups. I have been married for 35 years and have 3 adult children. Prior to becoming a consultant, I worked for 26 years in the Tiffin, Ohio Police Department at which time I was retired as a captain. (TR 2528) 1 worked at the L.A. Police Department for 2 weeks, San Francisco Police Department for 2 weeks, and I worked with other agencies in the area of cults, occult and nontraditional groups. I graduated from high school, have an associate degree in police science, a bachelor's degree in psychology, master's degree in criminal justice and dissertation in criminal justice. The master's degree in criminal justice and where I did my dissertation, was from Columbia Pacific University in San Rafael, California which is a school without walls. Much of my work was by correspondence. I started my course work at Columbia Pacific University in 1980. My course work had some relationship to nontraditional group activity. My master's work was working in intelligence work with small agencies and my doctoral
dissertation was on mind control cults and the effects on the objectives of law enforcement. (TR 2529) Nontraditional groups are. [sic] I taught people to look at the group activities from a malevolent side. Everybody has got the right to believe what they wish. I teach them to look at these groups for what they are, whether it be a cult or an occult group or a gang member or a type of cult that has malevolent tendencies. Malevolent tendencies are bad because they break laws. In 1968, when we started seeing some of these groups that were cause orientated on the campuses raising some havoc. After developing this interest, I contacted schools with walls to try to pursue that study. I was going through those type of schools until 1976. I was going through Terra Technical College in Fremont, Ohio, and then I graduated with a degree in psychology from Heidelburg College. I ran into a case in 1976 which threw me for a loop. I tried to get the lateral transfers and realized that wouldn't work. (TR 2530) Then, I went to schools with walls to get additional help. Those schools with walls, did not offer the type of studies in this nontraditional group activity. I started in the late 1960's working cause orientated groups that have a purpose or interest they are out there to further. The Students United for Freedom and Peace are things we commonly saw on campus in the 1960's. I come from a small town in Ohio. We started hearing some cases involving cults. I started checking on that. I just couldn't believe why people would leave town and
give up their money. I studied it and did anything that I could get a hold of. (TR 2531) As a result of the interests that I developed, I was in Los Angeles and San Francisco to further that interest. I tried to be proselytized by these groups, to see how they worked, see what their sales pitch was. I went to the American Church of Satan but I was not a member. I went to where they held their meetings and looked at how their rooms were set up. I went to their book stores. At that time I didn't know what a book of shadows was. Learned from the street what the different groups was. I also interviewed people involved in this activity. Over the years, when I was doing my dissertation. That is where I attended ISP or independent study project. Part of my dissertation was the results of that review. I talked to 500 of them. At the present time, I receive about 65 calls a week in regard to nontraditional groups. (TR 2532) About 80% of those calls are related to satanism. I have previously qualified as an expert in both state and federal court.
MR. FOGLEMAN: We submit Mr. Griffis as an expert.
VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION OF DALE GRIFFIS BY MR. FORD:
I went to school at Columbia Pa cific University. That is not a mail-order college where you can send in information and get a degree. (TR 2533) 1 graduated from high school in 1955. I went to college in 1956 at Delbert College associated with Western Missouri but I did not get a degree. I got a
technical degree from a community college in 1975. I got an associate degree in police science in which I had to go to classes and take tests. I got a report card or grades and had a transcript. I later went to a 4 year college. (TR 2534) I was going to a 4 year college and working at the Tiffin Police Department at the same time. I was a full time police officer enrolled as a full time college student in two different colleges. I [sic] two degrees. One in a technical college and one a four year degree, a B.A. Magna Cum Laude, 1976. I had to go to classes, had professors, had to take tests. (TR 2535) I got grades and had a transcript. When I went to this mail-order college, Columbia Pacific University, I did not take classes. I took predominantly written tests with objective questions. It was enrolled at Columbia Pacific University in California, I lived in Tiffin, Ohio. I started that school in 1980. It took me 3 years without taking classes to complete a combined master/doctoral program. (TR 2536) I was at the campus a couple of times, but I did not attend classes. They don't have classes at this campus. Other schools such as Harvard, Stanford, Ohio State, Michigan State do not offer classes that deal with the psychology of nontraditional groups. In 1980 I couldn't go to Stanford or Michigan State and take a class on the psychology of nontraditional groups and still work full time as a police officer. At other schools I had to go to class to get a degree there. (TR 2537) I went.to Bowling Green, Toledo
University, Marion campus Ohio State, the campus at Bowling Green, Ohio State, Ohio University, but I could not even get a weekend program or a full time program in the area I wanted. I was in L.A. and San Francisco for 2 weeks. Of the 80% that relate to satanism, some of those are just suspicions. My consulting work with police departments and mental health educators is my full-time job. (TR 2538) I also give lectures. I do not derive all my living from going around spreading satanic panic. I have testified in a couple hundred criminal trials but only 1 as an expert in satanic activities in Michigan. I do not remember the last name of the person who was on trial..
His first name is Jeff and he is in Ionia State Prison. (TR 2539) I have testified in hundreds of trials but not relating to cult activities. I have testified 3 times as an expert but only one in criminal trials.
MR. DAVIS: Ford asks a question and then when he starts to get a response, he changes his question. We object and let the witness have an opportunity to answer.
THE COURT: Let him answer the question.
MR. DAVIS: His question has already been asked. The question was, how many times have you testified as an expert in the occult, so the witness should be allowed to answer that question before Mr. Ford interposes another one.
MR. FORD: If I asked that question, let him answer it. I thought I asked him in criminal trials. (TR 2540)
I have been a consultant since 1986. I know what I'm talking about so I think I am an expert. I know a lot about the topic.
MR. FOGLEMAN: The question has been asked and answered.
MR. FORD: No, it hasn't. He didn't answer it. He said he knew a lot about the subject. I want to know does he think he's an expert.
Yes. (TR 2541)
MR. PRICE: No questions.
THE COURT: You may proceed.
MR. FORD: We submit he's not an expert. We would object to his opinions on that basis.
THE COURT: I have already ruled in that regard. You may continue.
CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION OF DALE GRIFFIS BY MR. FOGLEMAN:
I have reviewed autopsy reports, autopsy photographs and crime scene photographs for Branch, Byers and Moore. (TR 2542) Based on those items that I reviewed and if you assume that the testimony showed that Baldwin sucked the blood from' the penis of one of the victims, that this crime occurred on May 5th or 6th of 1993, that there was a full moon and there was the absence of evidence of blood at the scene, I would have an opinion as to whether or not the murder of the 3 boys were occult inspired or the occult is involved. It is my opinion that they were using the trappings of occultism during
this event. By stating "the trappings of occultism" I mean you have got dates, time of the moon phase, you have the removal of blood. Occultists when we are discussing this in general like any other religious groups have certain holidays that they worship. Walpersnaucht is on April 30th and it is based at the changing of the seasons. Beltane is on May 1st and it is a fire festival. Generally, that is a holiday. In occultism it is used by both pagan and satanic beliefs. The occult is like an esoteric secret science religion. There are different types to it. There's paganism, which is white witchcraft, there's satanism which is black witchcraft. (TR 2543) Some shamanism has been put in there which is Indian folklore occultism. They go back in the area of paganism prior to Christianity. The manner in which the children were tied, has an effect. They were tied in a display fashion in which their ankles were tied to their wrists, exposing their genitalia, and they would either put them on their face or on their back. The types of injuries have significance because predominantly there was the removal of sex organs. Some books on occultism will talk about sex organs, removing the testicles for the semen, a group called Crytos. Torture is not done by occult cults. There is a difference between traditional cult groups and occult cult groups. Traditional occultists follow rules set out by various prescribed manuals for services. An occult cult group usually follows that of the leader, and it could be anything. In occult cults they
make their own rules. (TR 2544) The fact of the manner in which the types of injuries in the sense of the variety of injuries does not have significance in my opinion -- as far as the head injuries to one, plus injuries to the face in regard to the
MR. FORD: I object to leading questions. I ask that he ask direct questions instead of supplying the answers for this witness.
THE COURT: Avoid leading. Objection sustained.
There is significance in water because usually water is there to wash up with. In some cases in traditional occult groups it is there to do baptism just as well as in Christianity. The significance of the sucking of blood is that blood is the life force. Usually they prefer to have a child that is very young, and the younger, the more innocent, the better the life force. I'm not sure if there is any significance to the absence of evidence of blood at the scene. (TR 2545) In occultism they will take it, store it, bathe in it or drink it. The drinking of the blood was supposed to give power and transference of life force. In occultism there is significance to the right and left side. In satanism, they usually take the midline of the body and they will refer to the right-hand path as that for Christianity and the left- hand path would be for satanism. In actual practice there are attempts to classify the persons who are involved in occultism into different categories to the extent of which they are
practicing occult behavior. in cases where there is suspected criminal activity we would look at the various levels or classification. For example, we could have a follower, a leader, a traditional member or a victim. (TR 2546) Traditional member would be somebody who belongs to a satanic church which is recognized in the state where they have filed corporate papers or following traditional satanic beliefs such as the American Church of Satan founded by Anton LaVey. LaVey established Walpersnaucht in 1966. I am familiar with the books that he's written such as The Satanic Bible, The Satanic Ritual Book and The Complete Witch. They are black witchcraft. There are self-styled satanists. Different types of groups which would start out with an experimenter, usually one who practices alone in an unorganized manner, a self-styled occultist and we are talking here only in the field of satanism. This person has some kind of problems in life and they use the trappings of occultism to get along. Then we have an occult cult group, and this has a little charismatic leader and some followers. Sometimes they have a name and sometimes they don't. They also use the trappings of occultism. (TR 2547) Then you-have a traditional church that uses the traditional books on occultism. The ones using the trappings have a particular type of dress, jewelry or body markings. I have personally observed people wearing black fingernails, having their hair painted black, wearing black tee shirts, black dungarees, that type of thing. Sometimes
they will tattoo themselves. It starts out with ink. They are liable to put it on the left as well as the right. Then they'll use some earrings which have occult symbols that you can buy through the mail. Tattoos may be on the middle finger of the left hand or in the web here of the hand between the thumb and the index finger of the left hand. (TR 2548) The practitioners of satanism keep records or books of things, spells or things like that. Most occultists do but it depends upon how sophisticated they are. State's Exhibit 110 appears to be a partial book of shadows. The drawing on the front is a Wiccan or white witchcraft pentagram. (TR 2549) The front page of the book confuses me because we've got a white witchcraft pentagram and upside down crosses which comes from black witchcraft, another type of occultism. That is at the stations the five points. Usually in satanism they'll have various activities-take place at the five points or figures. In white witchcraft or Wiccan we do not have upside down crosses. State's Exhibit 115 is a photograph that appears to be of that except there are a couple of other items on the front. On the front of the book of shadows, there's overlaying because this pentagram there's an upside down cross. In black witchcraft that is a 180 degrees to Christianity. Then we have a flying skull. (TR 2550) State's Exhibit 112 is a picture with the body on top of an altar is a head and it is a Ephias Levi. It is Bontamet, or a satanic goat head, and below that is a person in a robe, and
these robes I have seen sold in occult shops on the East Coast and West Coast. This is not Wicca. This is black witchcraft. State's Exhibit 111 is just something gory. In people involved in occultism I see artwork involving nacromansy [sic] or love of death. State's Exhibit 116 is a picture that contains the altar that is here. (TR 2551) Several times I have had the opportunity to review pictures where they will have an animal's head on an altar or they usually have a candle on it. I've worked cases where they dug up human heads. I Have worked cases and seen books of shadows where they will have different names in them. These names are used inside the cult or their little group. Those items that I have just looked at are black witchcraft. I have not seen Wicca people use that. This one confuses me because I have seen people in Wicca with potions and elixirs. Wiccans do not use upside down crosses. State's Exhibit 83 is a book that has Wicca and satanism. (TR 2552) There is a chapter in here called, "Rising Devil," and it is underlined in red. Often I get a look at books and the spinals are not broken on the back. You'll notice on this one it is not broken back, which to me indicates somebody hasn't read that part, and that part starts off with "Witch Hunt Mania." There has been evidence that Echols said "The younger the victim, the more innocent. The more innocent, the more power" which was used by an author, Alister Crowley. He's a gentleman from England, who came to the United States and started a group called Ochio. He
started the Solar Lodge in California. (TR 2553) He called it Soto. His beliefs involve black witchcraft and satanism.
Q Do you know Alister Crowley's position on human sacrifice?
MR. FORD: That is objectionable. It's hearsay. He's asking him to testify about someone else's belief.
THE COURT: I'm going to allow him to answer if he knows about it.
I am not familiar with Crowley's position on human sacrifice.
CROSS EXAMINATION OF DALE GRIFFIS BY MR. PRICE:
I am not saying that this picture, State's Exhibit 111, is one of the bases of my opinion that the murders had trappings of occultism. (TR 2554) This picture was something that the Crittenden Sheriff's Office has had in their possession at least a year prior to these murders so it would have no value in connection with your opinion. The goat's head and altar, State's Exhibit 112, which also has been in the Crittenden County Juvenile Office or the Sheriff's Department for the past year. This picture is not a basis of part of my opinion that these murders had trappings of occultism. This picture has not been in Echols, house for a year prior to the murders. This picture has nothing to do with the murders.
Q You say this picture does have something to do with the murders?
A It was shown to me last evening
MR. DAVIS: I object. The question is improper because, firstly, Price presumes facts that aren't in evidence in his question itself. (TR 2555) Secondly, the Court's admonition to the jury that this testimony goes strictly to motive in regard to his testimony -- it may be evidence connecting motive where Price's question is directed directly toward whether it connects with the murder. There is a difference.
MR. PRICE: His opinion was that this murder had trappings of occultism.
THE COURT: I think the proper question to ask the witness is, if that picture one of the things that he considered in formulating his opinion as to whether or not trappings of occultism occurred.
This picture is one of the things I considered in determining whether occultism occurred as part of the motive in the murders. I was not aware that this picture has not been in Echols, home for the past year prior to the murders. That fact does not change my opinion unless his activities changed. (TR 2556) This picture in and of itself has a basis for my opinion that the motive of the killing was cult related because it depicts an occult satanic scene. This picture has been introduced in this trial against your client, but has been out of Echols, house 12 months prior to the murders.
MR. FOGLEMAN: I object. That question has been asked and answered two or three different times. (TR 2557)
MR. PRICE: I'm asking him to explain his opinion about this.
THE COURT: Well, I think he has.
The book of shadows, State's Exhibit 110, contains the first writings in this book talk about, "The rites are performed in a nine foot circle." There was no evidence at the crime scene of a nine foot circle. It also says that, "Incense was used in all witchcraft ceremonies" but there was no evidence of any incense at the crime scene, so this page does not have anything to do with my opinion that the motive for the murders had trappings of occultism. The next thing this book talks about is improving the memory, but that spell does not have anything to do with the crime scene. (TR 2558) The following spells a love charm, "to improve the chances of success .... .. a cure for worms," and "a cure for cramps" do not have any evidence at the crime scene. I have no knowledge of who underlined page in this particular book. This book has several different chapters. Chapter one "Horned Gods and Mother God," Chapter two "The Evolution of Witchcraft Magic," Chapter three "Witch's Brews and Broomsticks," Chapter four "Pagan Witches," Chapter five "The Rise of the Devil," Chapter six "The Witch Hunt Mania," Chapter seven "Juvenile Witch Hunters," Chapter eight "The Resurrection of the Crab." (TR 2559) The only thing in
this book that is my basis of the opinion that the motive for these murders had trappings of occultism is the fact that the only thing that was underlined in that dealt with devil worship and there was a couple sentences in there with reference to blood and its life force. There is nothing dealing with how to commit murders or how to kill somebody. It is not a black manual. In analyzing this crime, I did not take some satanist beliefs, some Wiccan beliefs, some occult beliefs and mix them all together. I am saying this is a satanist crime. I have testified about the different types of occult activity. From what I could see, the trappings were that of devil worship. (TR 2560) April 30th and May 1st are dates of some importance. They have what is referred to as ethsabbaths which are higher holidays and those two dates are higher holidays. "They" are the whole broad spectrum of occultists. Echols was on that particular book that you brought to my attention. I found it interesting that Echols underlined only the things that had to do with devil worship but I did not know who underlined that. I do not know if Echols is a member of the occult. (TR 2561) Whomever underlined this book had an interest in the trappings of satanic occultism. In my opinion there is a difference between a crime that has trappings of occultism and a cult related crime. I do not know if I can draw a distinction between those two concepts. A cult is something we have seen with David Koresh. An occult group is satanism. When you mix
them together, when you have an occult cult group, you are liable to have whatever the leader may want. In my opinion Echols has an interest in the occult but I do not know if he was a member of an occult group or a cult group. Is it possible to have an interest but not be an actual member of an occult group. I have priests and ministers will call me and ask me what does this mean but that doesn't mean they are occultists. On the other hand, they don't have books that somebody has underlined with that either. (TR 2562) A main factor that I am considering is that Echols possessed that book. April 30th and May 1st were key dates but these murders took place May 5th or 6th April 30th is Walpersnaucht and May 1st is Beltane. The fact that there was a full moon, is a key factor that I am considering. In my opinion, it would lower the degrees that this is a satanist killing if the murders would have taken place when there was no moon. If the murders took place when it was a half moon, that might lower it halfway but you're getting into semantics. (TR 2563) The manner in which the victims were tied was in a display fashion but it could be a sex crime and not a crime with trappings of occultism. I have never investigated a case in which the victims were tied in this manner which turned out that case also had trappings of occultism. I have only had them where they have been displayed. The type of injury was another factor that I considered about the trappings of occultism but the fact that the genitalia were removed could
also mean that this was possibly a sex crime. it could not be a serial killing because serial killers usually leave something or take something from the scene. The type of torture was another factor based on my opinion. The case in Warwick, Rhode Island had trappings of occultism in which torture was a factor. (TR 2564) A female was killed inside a pentagram. She was raped and hit with, slashed with a knife a couple times and after she was incapacitated, they burned her up, set her on fire. In that case they found a pentagram. The officers in this case never found a pentagram or a nine foot circle. In the Rhode Island case that they burned up the victim, so fire another factor that I look at to determine if the case has trappings of occultism. However, in this case there was no evidence of fire. Another factor I testified to was about the presence of water but the bodies could have been placed in water in order to drown them because that is what the Medical Examiner said. (TR 2565) The bodies could also have been placed in water to help avoid detection. The fact that the bodies were found near the presence of water, that and of itself does not make this the trappings of a cult killing. However, usually in occult cases they will be around a water source. The case in Michigan where the boy is now in Ionia prison is one that I investigated and in which there was a determination that it had trappings of an occult related killing which was around a water source. That the sucking of blood was a factor to consider, blood is a life
force, and usually they will take the blood. I discussed the amount of loss of blood of all three victims I looked at the autopsy photographs and read the autopsies. I do not have an opinion as to where all the blood went. (TR 2566) The absence of blood at the crime scene could also mean the victims were killed elsewhere and deposited at the crime scene. I testified about the significance of the left side of the face and the right side of the face, with the left side having reference to satanism and the right side to Christians. Since one of the victims had more injuries on the left side of the face, that is an insignificant factor that this case had trappings of occultism. I found it of interest. If a victim received facial injuries, there is a 50% chance they'd receive injuries to the left side and a 50% chance to the right side. I have read the Satanic Bible by LaVey. This was in preparation of the research that I was doing to help me be better able to consult with law enforcement officers. (TR 2567) I met Anton LaVey. The factors of dress, the wearing of black, jewelry and tattoos could be a factor that I consider in determining if this was cult related. The State has introduced 15 black tee shirts that they seized at the home of Baldwin. If any person wears a black tee shirt, that is a factor that I would consider in determining if this case has trappings of occultism. The prior dress code that the individual uses is an indicator. I am not aware that our local university's colors are black and red and Jonesboro
High's colors are black and gold. I have gone on record saying that just because they wear a shirt like that doesn't make them a satanist. I cannot give you a specific number of cases that I have investigated in which the determination was made that they had trappings of occultism in which the defendants wore black tee shirts. (TR 2568) I get asked that question and people send me pictures privately. I was not award State's Exhibit 111, was a picture that came from a skating magazine. I did not look at the back of this photograph to read "Skater parks. Your 1991 tour guide" nor was I given the note inside.
MR. PRICE: We certainly did not stipulate to this particular note.
MR. FOGLEMAN: I didn't know it was there either.
Earlier I testified about a quote from Alister Crowley dealing with younger victims. (TR 2569) I am not aware that the West Memphis Police Department asked Echols and about 200 other individuals how they thought the murders might have occurred. If the bodies were placed in a pattern, that would be a factor I would consider. By the way they were tied up, I can only suspect that the crime scene indicated that the boys were laid up in a line or in a unique manner. I specifically asked Ridge that question on January 27, 1994, and he answered, "No pattern to the placement of the bodies except the placement in the water." I also ask Ridge, "Was there any natural substance in any way laid, out in a pattern?"
(TR 2570) I am aware that Ridge's answer was that from his examination of the crime scene, "I could not find any items laid out in any pattern." Question 6 was "Were there any indicators of a slab or a log or device present at the scene and he answered "No slab or log was found to be in the area." The fact that there were 3 victims was not a factor that I considered in reaching my conclusion. I just looked at the base number three. There was an initial group of 11 questions. In looking at some of the scene photos and data from the coroner, some primary indicators focused number five. I looked at the crime scene photos and not Medical Examiner photos, and I thought all three boys were traumatized in the area of the penis. That's wrong. I was able to correct that once I looked at the autopsy photos. (TR 2571)
CROSS EXAMINATION OF DALE GRIFFIS BY MR. FORD:
None of the stuff that I told this jury has been based on things I learned out at college. For the course, I was required to read several occult books. I did not learn someone else's opinion in a book. One of my reasons for my opinion was because I saw a book and said the person who had this book had an interest in the occult. I have read 4,800 books on the occult. I have got a lot of interest in the occult but I am not a member of the occult. (TR 2572) Having an interest in the occult doesn't make you a participant in it. I would have to have the answer to several questions before stating this be a serial killer. Everything
I have testified is not a guesstimate because it is based on training and work. Although I cannot rule out that it's a serial killer, I am not guessing that it's an occult killing. The trappings are there. In a serial killer there are things you look for. I do not have enough information to truly form a complete opinion on serial killing. (TR 2573) 1 have not been or walked out to this crime scene. They sent me a picture of all four sides of the crime scene. In looking at occult cases I look at the points of a compass as an indicator. Part of my opinion is based upon the fact that this happened in a secluded area. This is a secluded area right near these homes, near this truck wash and near this truck stop. (TR 2574) 1 can pick out the crime scene is on that photograph. The crime scene is a secluded area but I never been there before. I do not know how far it is from where these bodies were found to the nearest home. If I was trying to make a determination of it being in a secluded area is important, it doesn't stand to reason that I would want to know how close I am to a home or a business. In Boston it was right beside a church or a school, but they never saw it either. (TR 2575) It is important in determining whether you're in a secluded area to know how close the nearest residence or the nearest business but I don't know that. It was in Ridge's report, but I do not know. I do not have an opinion about where the blood went because they have not told me.
I have testified is not a guesstimate because it is based on training and work. Although I cannot rule out that it's a serial killer, I am not guessing that it's an occult killing. The trappings are there. In a serial killer there are things you look for. I do not have enough information to truly form a complete opinion on serial killing. (TR 2573) I have not been or walked out to this crime scene. They sent me a picture of all four sides of the crime scene. In looking at occult cases I look at the points of a compass as an indicator. Part of my opinion is based upon the fact that this happened in a secluded area. This is a secluded area right near these homes, near this truck wash and near this truck stop. (TR 2574) I can pick out the crime scene is on that photograph. The crime scene is a secluded area but I never been there before. I do not know how far it is from where these bodies were found to the nearest home. If I was trying to make a determination of it being in a secluded area is important, it doesn't stand to reason that I would want to know how close I am to a home or a business. In Boston it was right beside a church or a school, but they never saw it either. (TR 2575) It is important in determining whether you're in a secluded area to know how close the nearest residence or the nearest business but I don't know that. It was in Ridge's report, but I do not know. I do not have an opinion about where the blood went because they have not told me.
Q If there was testimony in this case that these boys were killed somewhere else, that they were taken, tied up and gagged --
MR. FOGLEMAN: That is assuming facts that aren't in evidence for him to say there was testimony that they were killed somewhere else. (TR 2576)
MR. FORD: I'm asking him a hypothetical question the way Mr. Fogleman did.
MR. FOGLEMAN: That isn't what he said. He said if there was testimony. My hypothetical included testimony that there's actually been.
THE COURT: If you're going to form a hypothetical, it is going to have to be based upon facts that are in evidence or may be presented in evidence.
A BENCH CONFERENCE OUT OF THE HEARING OF THE JURY
MR. FORD: Peretti gave an opinion on possibilities -
THE COURT: -- But that's not testimony.
MR. FORD: Yes, he did. He gave his opinion that in his opinion these homicides occurred somewhere other than at the scene.
THE COURT: No, he didn't. He just said it was possible. (TR 2577)
MR. FORD: That's an opinion.
MR. FOGLEMAN: Show me where he said that.
MR. FORD: I can't read all the pages right now and find it, but I know that he gave that opinion
THE COURT: -- You're not going to find it in there.
MR. FORD: He said they occurred somewhere other than at the scene
THE COURT: No, he didn't.
MR. FORD: He gave his opinion. that it could have happened in one of three places in the water, at the bank or somewhere else, and of those three the most plausible was somewhere else.
MR. FOGLEMAN: I think that was your testimony.
MR. FORD: That was his testimony.
THE COURT: No. (TR 2578)
MR. FORD: That is what Wadley is going to look for while I ask him some other questions.
MR. DAVIS: I'm going to keep this. This is my copy.
MR. FORD: Can we take a break since he won't let us look at his copy and get a copy of it?
THE COURT: You can get all the copies you want, but we're not taking a break now. Let's move along.
MR. FORD: I can't question this witness until I have the answer-to that question.
THE COURT: Until you have what answer?
MR. FORD: I believe Peretti gave the opinion that of those three possibilities the most probable was that it happened somewhere else.
MR. DAVIS: Here's the area where you were questioning him.
(RETURN TO OPEN COURT)
Q If there were testimony in this case that these homicides could have occurred somewhere else -
MR. FOGLEMAN: The same objection. (TR 2579)
THE COURT: Sustained. You want. to come up here and point it out to me?,,
MR. FORD: I asked Peretti the question -
A BENCH CONFERENCE OUT OF THE HEARING OF THE JURY
MR. FORD: First, "I would question that about the blood unless it happened in the water or it happened in some other place." That was his testimony.
THE COURT: He just said it was possible.
MR. FORD: I want to know
THE COURT: -- Where is there any positive factual testimony that it happened somewhere else?
MR. FORD: Do I get to call him back at the conclusion of my case?
THE COURT: I guess so.
MR. FORD: Or do I get to ask him these hypothetical questions now
THE COURT: Are you telling me that you have some physical evidence that those murders occurred someplace else? (TR 2580)
MR. FORD: I'm telling you that I believe that there is an argument based on Peretti's testimony, I can argue to the jury that it could have happened somewhere else.
THE COURT: Sure but you don't have any facts -
MR. FORD: I'm entitled to ask him if he were told that this homicide occurred somewhere else, would that change his opinion that this was an occult killing. I am entitled to ask him that because the jury may very well conclude and agree that this happened somewhere else and if that is true, they need to know that his opinion would be different.
MR. DAVIS: That is assuming a fact that is not in evidence.
MR. FORD: I can't ask him, if this occurred somewhere else, would you have a different opinion?
THE COURT: I'll let you ask that question. (TR 2581)
(RETURN TO OPEN COURT)
I would have to know where it happened at to make, an opinion that. this was an occult killing if this homicide occurred somewhere else other than in these woods. If the homicides did occur somewhere else, I would have to have a different set of facts. My comment is the same. I would have to know some more facts. The likelihood could go up or down if the homicides occurred somewhere else. The evidence that I have to link Baldwin to the occult. was that he was the individual who sucked the blood out of the individual's penis. (TR 2582) If that evidence is wrong, I do not have any other evidence to connect Baldwin to the occult. I have not seen the reports to know if other people said he was present or not.
REDIRECT EXAMINATION OF DALE GRIFFIS BY MR. FOGLEMAN:
In my experience serial killers act alone and do not or run in packs. Of all the cases I have read about, there's only been two of them that ran with another individual.
RECROSS EXAMINATION OF DALE GRIFFIS BY MR. PRICE:
I recall an article in the Capital Magazine out of Columbus, Ohio, on July 15, 1984, and about me. The title is, "Sympathy for the Devil," and it talked about my research, consulting and activities in this area. (TR 2583) I was with the department, and I was being asked from other departments. The following quote is attributed to me that is contained in this article:
You have got to remember there's a lot of sheriffs and a lot of police chiefs under a hell of a lot of pressure when I get there. I'm there to help my brother police officers. I report to them, not the public. (TR 2584)