Buddy: Uh, no. I think she went out to her sister's
Fogleman: To her sister’s?
Buddy: mm hmmm
Fogleman: Does she, does her sister have a phone?
Buddy: nuh uh
Fogleman: She doesn't? ok.
Buddy: Can I take a message?
Fogleman: Well I was just wanting to talk to her. uh. hmmm.
Buddy: It isn't about me, is it?
Fogleman: (laughs) No, Buddy, it's not about you. No... uh. I thought you and I were buddies, Buddy.
Buddy: I was until they hollered up -- that law man hollered at me up there at West Memphis
Fogleman: Well, why didn't you tell me --
Buddy: I tried to tell him the truth --
Fogleman: Why didn't you tell me about it?
Buddy: I was just scared cause he was hollering at me and everything
Fogleman: Well you know when you came out of there, you remember when I was up here? you remember that?
Buddy: mm hmmm
Fogleman: and you told me that you were scared of Jessie's friends, you remember that?
Buddy: mm hmmm. I know he was just hollering at me and stuff. I was scared, didn't know what to do.
Fogleman: ok...
Buddy: [can't hear this due to static] ... six hours.
Fogleman: uh huh
Buddy: ... They came and got me off my job. And my boss man he didn't like that at all
Fogleman: He didn't like it cause they got you off your job?
Buddy: Yes, sir [?]
Fogleman: uh huh
Buddy: … busiest part of the day
Fogleman: ok. well, I was just wanting to talk to your mom. You know that you all could have called me and talked to me about it. You all didn't need a lawyer or anything, Buddy.
Buddy: well, I thought it'd be best to get one cause he came back up here, I didn't want to talk to him no more
Fogleman: ok. Tell me about the -- you know the guy that came to talk to you -- Damien's investigator? That Lax guy?
Buddy: uh huh
Fogleman: what did he tell you?
Buddy: Nothing. He just told me he wanted to help me and he said that he's the one that I could tell the truth to
Fogleman: He was the one that you could tell the truth to?
Buddy: Yes, cause -- without him hollering at me. he did not holler at me at all.
Fogleman: uh huh
Buddy: He was a real nice man.
Fogleman: A real nice man, huh?
Buddy: [?] a friend of mine, we got there at my aunt's and uncle's
Fogleman: uh huh
Buddy: when he come out there to talk to me -- first time i'd seen him
Fogleman: uh huh
Buddy: my [?] he was out there, and you can ask him -- he was sitting right there at the kitchen table
Fogleman: ok, I mean -- what did he say -- I know he was nice to you, but what did he say to you?
Buddy: like what?
Fogleman: um, I don't know. (laughs) I wasn't there Buddy.
Buddy: I know he didn't lie to me or nothing
Fogleman: I'm not saying he did; i'm just wondering what he said to you. cause, you know, after you -- you know, you could have called me if there was something wrong about what you said -- you could have called me
Buddy: I know they hollered at me and stuff up there at the police station
Fogleman: uh huh
Buddy: I didn't like that very much
Fogleman: well, I don't blame you.
Buddy: My mom just walked in the door.
Fogleman: Oh, she is? Can I talk to her then?
Buddy: Sure. Here she is.
Mary: Hello?
Fogleman: Mary?
Mary: yeah
Fogleman: This is John Fogleman
Mary: yeah
Fogleman: How are you doing?
Mary: Alrighty
Fogleman: Uh, I was just talking to Buddy. I called for you and he answered the phone. You know this deal with Jessie's all over with.
Mary: Yeah
Fogleman: And I was just wanting to talk to you and uh see what the guy -- Damien's investigator what he said to Buddy. Do you -- were you there when Buddy talked to him?
Mary: Damien?
Fogleman: Yeah, Damien's investigator -- that Ron Lax is Damien's investigator
Mary: Um, no I wasn't. I -- when he talked to Buddy, no I wasn't, but my brother was
Fogleman: Your brother was?
Mary: yeah
Fogleman: Did he tell you what it was that he said to him?
Mary: He was just asking him questions and everything and stuff and told Buddy and them they could help about these law men hollering at Buddy. Mr. John, Buddy didn't know anything about it. Buddy was at work, and I didn't appreciate it about them hollering at Buddy. [?] and him going to his job and getting him and holding him six hours.
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: And I didn't want them even -- Mr. John, Buddy didn't know anything about it. They took his shoes and bought him another pair of boots
Fogleman: No, they didn't buy him a pair of boots, Mary. There were some there --
Mary: oh, they just gave them to him Mr. John? What was wrong with the shoes he had on his feet?
Fogleman: Well the boots they gave him were some boots that they had up here, and since they were going to take his as possible evidence they wanted to give him something so he wouldn't walk out of here barefooted.
Mary: Well Mr. John, Buddy gave them what, 2 or 3 pairs of shoes?
Fogleman: uh huh. Well that's because he kept telling them that you know there was a different pair that Jessie had given to him.
Mary: And when they first come and talked to Buddy, I went up there and with Buddy
Fogleman: uh huh, and I ...
Mary: and that man was nice. We gave him the shoes
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: and stuff. And we told them, Mr. John, that if I could get hold of that man right now I could slap him around a couple times because I don't [?] for him hollering at my kid
Fogleman: Well I don't blame you feeling that way, if he did. But let me say this, I don't know what happened in the room cause I wasn't in there, but I was up here when he came out and the only thing Buddy said is he told me -- he recognized me after a minute -- and he was acting like he was scared. But after a few minutes, after he recognized me, he settled down and he told me that the reason he had never told what he ended up telling them was because that he was afraid of Jessie's friends, Dennis Carter and Dino Perfetti. Now that's what he told me. And I mean you know, you know me
Mary: uh huh
Fogleman: And have I ever done anything but right by yall?
Mary: That's true. And that's what I told Buddy. I said Buddy you should have went and told Mr. John
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: Cause see when I found out about it, me and Buddy talked
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: a long time
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: and he said he was just scared.
Fogleman: uh huh. When did he tell you all that?
Mary: Well see, Mr. John, I know when they first comed out here and talked to Buddy, when it first happened
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: and stuff, you know. And I told Buddy they're probably questioning us cause we know Jessie.
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: and everything
Fogleman: It was because Jessie had said he had given Buddy his shoes.
Mary: yep. But see Jessie went camping with us and everything
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: Way before the kids ever got killed
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: and everything
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: And I told Buddy I said probably questioning all of you kids out here because of that
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: And I told Buddy I said Buddy if you know anything, you let me know
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: And everything. well next thing I know this man from West Memphis come down and I went ahead and took off of work and went up there and Buddy told them that he didn't know anything about it and he told them about the shoes and he gave the lawmen the shoes
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: But when they went out there on the job with Buddy, I didn't know anything about it
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: and a matter of fact they went out there twice
Fogleman: uh huh. Well, you know, let me tell you this. Do you know why they went back and talked to him again?
Mary: uh uh
Fogleman: It wasn't because they just out of the blue decided to Mary. Some of ya'lls relatives, I can't think of which ones they were right now
Mary: uh huh
Fogleman: called the police dept and said that Buddy was saying that he knew something.
Mary: huh
Fogleman: I mean the police didn't just you know come out there you know for their health you know. They came out there because some of you all's relatives called and said Buddy was saying that he knew something.
Mary: Well who was it?
Fogleman: Well I can't think of the names right now. Uh, I think the last name was Wilson, like Eddie Wilson. is that some relative of you all's?
Mary: Well I got a brother named Eddie Wilson
Fogleman: Wwell, it was Eddie and I think maybe Amy Wilson. Had said that I think it was one or the other, I think it was Eddie had said that he had been hearing around work that Buddy was saying that he knew something and that Jessie had brought him some bloody tennis shoes and that he, that Eddie went out and confronted Buddy and Buddy said that he uh wasn't involved in it but Jessie had given him some bloody tennis shoes. That's what Eddie Wilson told the police. and see, they weren't going out there trying to pick on Buddy.
Mary: uh huh --
Fogleman: I mean maybe Buddy didn't know anything but the police didn't just make up something. It was something that was told to them and that's why they went and talked to him to begin with.
Mary: well it seems like the lawman's what got Eddie and Buddy together, don't it?
Fogleman: well but that's not the way that you do --
Mary: I mean you get the truth that way Mr. John, you know that
Buddy: Hey Mr. John
Fogleman: Yes sir
Buddy: Uh, I got a man I was living with him [?] with my mom at the time
Fogleman: uh huh
Buddy: And he said that he knows that me and him was working that day
Fogleman: You and him were working what day?
Buddy: [?]
Fogleman: Working what day? You talking about the day the boys were murdered?
Buddy: yeah
Fogleman: Nobody's saying that you were involved in the murders, Buddy
Buddy: I didn't want to be brought up in it and I don't -- Mr. John, I won't go to court on Damien and Jason
Fogleman: And you're not going to be asked to go to court, Buddy. But did Ron Lax tell you that you were going to be brought up in the middle of it?
Buddy: No. Uh uh. I just thought that I didn't want to be brought up in it, and he said that --
Fogleman: Buddy, you've been listening on the other end, right? And you know what I told your mom about --
Mary: No, he just got on
Fogleman: You just got on?
Buddy: uh huh
Fogleman: Well tell your momma what you told Eddie Wilson about the bloody tennis shoes
Buddy: I didn't say nothing to Eddie Wilson
Fogleman: Now Buddy. Why would Eddie tell the police that you did?
Buddy: I didn't say nothing to Eddie. I didn't even say anything to Eddie.
Fogleman: Well I'm not talking about lately. I'm talking about some time ago.
Mary: Did you tell Eddie and Amy and everything that Jessie gave you a pair of bloody tennis shoes?
Buddy: nuh uh. I told him that uh when I went hunting with Uncle Ronny that pair of shoes I gave little Eddie
Mary: uh huh
Buddy: and he asked me where that stain come from and I told him when me and Ronny went hunting. And he asked Uncle Ronny and Uncle Ronny told him yeah
Fogleman: Well, Buddy, why do you think if that's all you told him then why would Eddie go to the police with that?
Buddy: Because he thought I had something to do with it. that's when they kicked me out.
Fogleman: They kicked you out of the house because they thought you had something to do with it?
Buddy: Yes sir, cause they kept on jumping down my throat and I told them look just get off my back cause I don't know nothing about it. And I left. They kept jumping down my throat. I told them look I don't know nothing about it.
Fogleman: Buddy, and listen, it's all over with and nobody thinks you had anything to do with murdering those boys. Nobody does. But --
Buddy: My family didn't believe that
Fogleman: (laughs)
Mary: Nobody didn't think you did
Fogleman: But nobody thinks that you had anything to do with it Buddy. And all I'm trying -- all that's over with. You're not gonna be called to testify. You know Jessie's trial is over with --
Buddy: You all won't bother me no more, will you?
Fogleman: No, we're not going to bother you Buddy. We just want to know the truth about it because you know these people are telling us things and this investigator this Lax guy is going around getting all kinds of witnesses to change their stories. And I never had -- I've been doing this for over ten years and I've never had one witness change their story. Once they tell the police, I've never had them do it and we've had at least three in this case do it. And I'm just trying to find out what in the world is going on.
Buddy: I know they hollered at me Mr. John and that ain't no lie
Fogleman: well
Buddy: That Durham guy
Fogleman: Yeah well if he did he shouldn't have done that but why --
Buddy: Mr. John I was scared, crying, didn't know what to do. I figured they was gonna throw me in jail. And I ain't never been locked up in my life.
Fogleman: Well and you're not gonna be locked up. You know I'm just wanting to know you know like Eddie and Amy Wilson they called the police and said that he had heard - he said that he had heard that you'd been talking around your job saying that you had something to do with it. And he said -- wait, let me finish -- he said that he went down and confronted you about it and that you said naw I didn't have anything to do with it and I hadn't been saying that but he did Jessie did give me these bloody tennis shoes.
Buddy: nuh uh
Mary: The shoes that Jessie gave Buddy Mr. John the police dept got them when they first comed and questioned Buddy
Buddy: The blue and white adidas ones - the only pair of shoes Jessie gave me Mr. John
Fogleman: Well and another thing that confused me about that Buddy is that you know you'd said that you'd gotten those shoes from Jessie like way back in Feb?
Buddy: yuh huh
Fogleman: Well you know when Jessie told the police about what happened he says that the shoes that he was wearing that day were white and blue adidas and that he gave them to you. And then when the police come and talk to you the first time you give them a pair of white and blue adidas
Mary: yeah
Buddy: uh huh
Fogleman: Now why in the world would Jessie say you know pull out of the sky a pair of white and blue adidas that he had had given to you three months before?
Buddy: Try to cover up for the real shoes
Fogleman: Well and well, is Jessie that smart? To try to cover up for the real shoes?
Buddy: I just guessed that I mean -- we was all four-wheel riding
Fogleman: even if --
Buddy: uh huh and he gave me shoes back in February to wear home cause I got mine wet and muddy
Fogleman: Ok. Well Buddy, even if he did give you some bloody shoes that wouldn't mean that you were in trouble or that somehow that would mean that you were guilty of anything
Buddy: I just don't want to be brought up in it
Fogleman: Well, you're not going to be but I just want to find out the truth. I mean I can give you my word you're not going to be called as a witness. And you know me and your momma knows me, and I've never steered you all wrong.
Buddy: But Mr. John I wanted to tell you about with him hollering at me
Fogleman: uh huh
Buddy: But I was just scared and stuff. my mom told me she said you can tell Mr. John and Mr. John would take of it
Fogleman: Kind of hurt my feelings when you wouldn't talk to me and then I get a call from a lawyer and
Buddy: But I was scared though. He was hollering at me. I didn't know what to do, I thought he was going to throw me in jail
Mary: What I decided that was me about the lawyer Mr. John
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: And everything. Because I was I mean if Buddy had to go to court
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: And I walked into that courtroom and Buddy told me that man screamed and hollered at him I would grab that man
Fogleman: well
Mary: I believe in the law
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: and I believe in everything right and I think that you do too
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: I mean we're taxpayers we pay
Fogleman: Sure, that's right
Mary: And he's supposed to do right. if you don't, get out of the system
Fogleman: mm hmmm. Yep. Well I can't argue with what you're saying. It's just I just wanted you Mary to understand that the police just didn't dream this up but that they had some basis for talking to Buddy about where these shoes came from some more
Mary: that's what I tried to tell Buddy. I said somebody had to be talking.
Buddy: but Mr. John
Fogleman: yes sir
Buddy: You can ask my family. You can't believe little Eddie in nothing. I swear you cannot believe --
Fogleman: who?
Buddy: You can ask any part of my family. You cannot believe little Eddie and Amy.
Fogleman: uh huh
Buddy: Eddie Wilson
Mary: and Mr. John about little Eddie and Amy
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: You oughta check their brother's record. Chris.
Fogleman: uh huh
Mary: and everything. Little Eddie's not so bad. Little Eddie's pretty good, but it's his wife and the crowds he moves around with
Fogleman: uh huh. Well Buddy and again you're not going to be brought up into anything but what we're trying to find out. What we really believe -- even though this investigator was being nice to you when he talks to you, we think that he's doing more than just talking. And you know maybe suggesting some things about us that aren't true.
Buddy: I know he didn't, Mr. John, I swear he did not bribe me
Fogleman: oh no I'm not suggesting he bribed you. I didn't say anything about anyone paying -- did I say anything about anyone paying any money?
Buddy: nuh uh
Fogleman: no I didn't and I didn't mean that. But I mean there are ways that people do things like for instance suggesting that or you know if you [?] that could get you in trouble. And saying something like that. Did he ever say anything like that?
Buddy: uh uh. But bout them shoes, you cannot believe little Eddie and Amy. I mean if you check on those records and people they hang around with I mean
Fogleman: Buddy I -- you know I told you before you know that that's over with
Buddy: uh huh
Fogleman: You know that only mattered in Jessie's trial
Buddy: uh huh
Fogleman: ok?
Buddy: uh huh
Fogleman: That's all that mattered, was in Jessie's trial. Jessie's trial's over with
Buddy: yes sir
Fogleman: So you don't have to worry about that, ok?
Buddy: Alright. You ain't mad at me, Mr. John?
Fogleman: I'm not mad at you, Buddy
Buddy: And I wanted to tell you real bad I just
Fogleman: Well, next time, if something like this ever happens again, you come talk to me and you know we'll get things straightened out. but all we want all that we want is the truth because we don't want Damien to get away with killing these three little eight year old boys
Buddy: Mr. John, I don't know him that well
Fogleman: (laughs) Aand I'm not asking you anything about it. uh, don't expect you to
Buddy: uh huh
Fogleman: But I just wanted to talk to you both. I'm glad I got a chance to talk to you both cause it really bothered me about the way this thing ended up
Buddy: mm hmm
Fogleman: And I did want you to know nobody's mad at you but we're also trying to find out what's really going on with this investigator. Because I've talked to at least one person who he talked to where he went out and told them that he was with the police, when he went and talked to him.
Buddy: He didn't tell me that. He told me he was an investigator.
Fogleman: But did he tell you who he was an investigator for?
Buddy: uh huh. And I can't read that well and he showed his ID to my uncle
Fogleman: uh huh
Buddy: And a friend that was standing out there with me
Fogleman: Who did he tell you he was investigating for?
Buddy: He didn't say -- uh, I couldn't -- uh my uncle couldn't really tell -- uh the card
Fogleman: I'm telling about when he talked to you, did he say hey i'm an investigator for somebody?
Buddy: uh uh. equivitor's... [?]
Fogleman: Inquisitor Inc?
Buddy: Yeah, I got his card
Fogleman: But I mean did he tell you who he was there representing?
Buddy: nuh uh
Fogleman: He didn't tell you he was there for Damien?
Buddy: uh uh
Fogleman: Ok. Well, Mary have you got any questions for me?
Mary: No [?] cause I really don't know what's all going on myself, Mr. John
Fogleman: Well I understand that
Buddy: You all won't bother me no more, Mr. John?
Fogleman: (laughs)
Buddy: I ain't never been in trouble with the law men.
Fogleman: Buddy, you're not in trouble. You know, that's the thing. You are not in trouble. You've never been in trouble. We've just been trying, the police have just been trying the truth. And when somebody's relative calls up and tells them hey he's been going around saying this the police have a responsibility to check it out.
Buddy: mm hmmm. You're right there, Mr. John, they do.
Fogleman: yeah
Buddy: I mean but hey I didn't say that Mr. John
Fogleman: ok. You didn't say it or you didn't mean it?
Buddy: huh?
Fogleman: You say you didn't say --
Buddy: I said I didn't
Fogleman: You didn't say what?
Buddy: Tell little Eddie bout them shoes
Fogleman: Alright, well I'll take your word for it Buddy and uh if you think of anything that you think I might need to know, just feel free to call me ok and it'll be just between me and you, ok?
Buddy: Alright, Mr. John.
Fogleman: Ok
Buddy: hey
Fogleman: yes sir
Buddy: Mr. John, like my mom said if you check back on their records and stuff you wouldn't believe the people they hang around with. I mean they lied on my uncle Freddy before
Fogleman: hmm. Who's your uncle Freddy?
Buddy: The man that I lived with. I did live with.
Fogleman: What's his last name?
Buddy: Wilson
Fogleman: Oh, Freddy Wilson
Buddy: uh huh
Fogleman: Ok
Buddy: He's a nice man and stuff. he was there. it was him, me and Benny [?] and Jamie and Rachel
Fogleman: uh huh
Buddy: Were there at the house when that man come out there to talk to me... Ron Lax
Fogleman: Who let me ask you this. Who is someone named Charlotte Bolois or something like that?
Buddy: uh a step cousin
Fogleman: a step cousin?
Buddy: uh huh. She used to go out she used to go with Chris
Fogleman: with Chris uh
Buddy: Wilson
Fogleman: Chris Wilson, oh
Buddy: I don't know her that well, I mean I just seen her a couple times, said hi and bye that was it
Fogleman: uh huh
Buddy: But when they uh little Eddie and them told me that she doesn't even like nobody. That she didn't like me. I said she doesn't have to like me.
Fogleman: Let me ask you something else while I got you Buddy
Buddy: ok
Fogleman: When did little Jessie get the haircut - that wild haircut that he had with the stripes and the little thing sticking up on top?
Buddy: I don't know
Fogleman: You don't remember whether if it was before or after the murders?
Buddy: nuh uh, I don't remember Mr. John
Fogleman: ok. Alright
Buddy: Cause uh when this stuff here was going on I was at work that day and I talked to my boss man and he said that if I had to go to court that he would go to court with me saying that I was at work that day
Fogleman: Well let me ask you this Buddy. Who, has somebody told you that you weren't at work that day or that the police thought you were involved in the murders?
Buddy: I felt like they thought I was involved so I went to him and asked him. I didn't want to bring him up to court or nothing.
Fogleman: You're saying that the police -- did the police accuse you of being involved?
Buddy: No sir. But they yelled and screamed at me and made me feel like I was there with them. I mean they made me feel that way. And I was crying and everything for a few minutes.
Fogleman: Has somebody else - well now on the videotape it didn't look like you were crying
Buddy: That was not then - that was before he gave me that polygraph test. See I tried to tell him the truth before he gave me that polygraph test
Fogleman: uh huh
Buddy: And when I started to tell him the truth he threw down that little notebook
Fogleman: Let me stop you, alright, when you did the videotape had anybody yelled at you before you did the videotape?
Buddy: No sir. I mean they, I was scared though.
Fogleman: But nobody had yelled at you?
Buddy: mm hmmm. He told me he said --
Fogleman: But on the videotape you told them about these shoes and about Jessie crying and saying he was involved in this
Buddy: Yeah, but see they had me scared though. I didn't know what to do. I mean, they were sitting there, they kept on, kept on. I told them I don't know nothing about it. They said you're a liar.
Fogleman: But they didn't yell at you or anything up until that point?
Buddy: Not until they started giving that polygraph test, and I started to tell him the truth
Fogleman: uh huh
Buddy: about that video
Fogleman: uh huh
Buddy: and he just went off. I mean he threw down that notebook
Fogleman: oh I see so he yelled at you --
Buddy: started hollering --
Fogleman: He yelled at you was it before or after the polygraph?
Buddy: It was before
Fogleman: Right before?
Buddy: mm hmm
Fogleman: Ok
Buddy: I tried to tell him the truth before it happened, before he give it to me
Fogleman: And that was which officer?
Buddy: Sir?
Fogleman: Which officer was that?
Buddy: uh Durham
Fogleman: Durham?
Buddy: mm hmmm
Fogleman: Ok
Buddy: I mean I wouldn't even want to see his face no more.
Fogleman: (laughs) well...
Buddy: Mr. John, if I see his face again and after he yelled and screamed at me
Fogleman: uh huh
Buddy: I'd I mean if I see him again I'm going to show him to my mom
Fogleman: ok
Buddy: Cause he didn't have no business hollering and screaming at me, I didn't like it very much. I thought to tell him, but if I did he'd threw me in jail
Fogleman: Well next time just tell me about it, ok Buddy?
Buddy: Alright
Mary: That's what I told Buddy.
Buddy: But Mr. John I wanted to tell you about it, but I figured you all wouldn't believe me. cause
Fogleman: Ok. If it was anybody else --
Buddy: figured they'd believe these law men before they would anybody else
Fogleman: well. Has anybody else told you that somebody was going to make it like you were involved in it?
Buddy: nuh uh
Fogleman: You just decided that you needed to go check where you were that day?
Buddy: Yes sir
Fogleman: Ok. Well alright Buddy, Mary, I'm going to let you all go and I appreciate you talking to me.
Mary: alright
Buddy: So you all ain't going to bother me no more?
Fogleman: I won't bother you Buddy, nobody's going to bother you. Alright?
Buddy: alright
Fogleman: ok. Anybody bothers you I mean anybody at all bothers you
