15 JONESBORO, ARKANSAS, MARCH 10, 1994 at 9:30 A.M.
16 THE COURT: All right. Are you all
17 ready to proceed?
18 MR. DAVIS: Yes, your Honor. May we
19 approach the bench?
20 THE COURT: All right.
21(The following conference was held at
22 the bench.)
23 MR. DAVIS: Your Honor, it's the State's
24 position, we want to advise the Court that after
25 having reviewed Rule 17.1 that we acknowledge the

1 failure to give those documents to the defendant
2 yesterday was a violation of that particular rule.
3 The State at this time, having
4 acknowledged that, it is the State's position that
5 there are a number of options available to the
6 Court in the way of sanctions for that. Number 1
7 to keep that evidence out, I mean, not allow the
8 introduction of the particular documents, and
9 also, I think Mr. Ford has requested an
10 admonishment to the jury that that's only to be in
11 regard to Mr. Echols which I think is more
12 appropriate.
13 THE COURT: I have already given that
14 and will give that again.
15 MR. DAVIS: Which I think is
16 appropriate.
17 MR. FORD: That satisfies us, your
18 Honor.
19 MR. DAVIS: And we can assure the Court
20 that there are no other documents or anything like
21 that. In fact, we went back through everything to
22 make sure that anything we might have that we
23 provided copies this morning.
24 It was an inadvertent oversight on our
25 part as far as not providing those to the defense,

1 and it's - we request that the Court make a
2 determination as to whether there has been any
3 prejudice caused by that. It is the State's
4 position that, in fact, there, number 1, it went
5 to the sole issue of motive. And number 2, that
6 in going to the issue of motive, it is for
7 cross-examination. And had we provided a copy of
8 that to defense counsel, we would still have been
9 able to use it in cross-examination and might have
10 even been able to introduce it at that point. And
11 the Court's action can remedy that by keeping that
12 particular document out.
13 MR. PRICE: Judge, it is our position
14 that anything that my client might have written
15 down after the murder would not have anything to
16 do with the motive that he may have had prior to
17 the murders. The fact that he has a piece of
18 paper with his name written, Mr. Baldwin's name
19 written, Alister Crowley's name written, and his
20 son's name written has certainly no value, no
21 relevance as to issue of motive.
22 THE COURT: It is going to be my finding
23 that the failure to deliver the document prior to
24 cross-examination technically violated the Rule
25 17, although the State probably would have been

1 allowed to utilize that had they informed you. I
2 am going to find that there is no prejudice, and
3 then I am going to continue to sustain your
4 objection and not allow the introduction of the
5 document itself. All right.
6 MR. FORD: Your Honor, when the jury
7 returns, will you give a precautionary
8 instruction?
9 THE COURT: I will give a -- well, I
10 mean, the State has acknowledged that the
11 testimony of Mr. Echols should be considered only
12 as to Mr. Echols, and I can't really say that
13 either because --
14 MR. FORD: No, because the State is
15 asking him questions in an effort to make some
16 link between the two.
17 THE COURT: There are similar links that
18 probably could be drawn, but at what point I --
19 MR. FORD: I agree that there are some
20 links that they could -- I think are proper
21 cross-examination once Mr. Echols is up there.
22 THE COURT: I am going to say with
23 regard to the document, the jail-house documents,
24 that they do not relate to Mr. Baldwin and give
25 the admonition.

1 MR. FORD: This is the instruction we
2 are agreeable to.
3 MR. FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, I would like
4 to add for the record, as Mr. Price indicated, the
5 document in question, it probably ought to be made
6 a part of the record.
7 MR. DAVIS: Yes.
8 THE COURT: All right. We will make it
9 a proffer -- or proffer of proof and not for the
10 benefit of the jury. I did sustain the objection.
11 (State's Exhibit No. 300 was marked for
12 identification and proffered into evidence)
13 MR. FOGLEMAN: Right, I understand that.
14 But I just wanted to add for the record that
15 because since it was just a series of names, at
16 the time, I certainly didn't realize the
17 significance.
18 At first when I saw the code down at the
19 bottom, I thought it might be really something
20 like a confession in code or something. But I
21 think it is just alphabet down at the bottom. And
22I didn't see the significance, and I don't think
23 Mr. Davis did until the Crowley name came into it.
24 MR. FORD: Your Honor, at this time,
25 since we are taking up arguments, we would again

1 renew our motion for severance now that Mr. Echols
2 has taken the stand. It was our position the
3 entire time that Mr. Baldwin would not take the
4 stand, and now that Mr. Echols has taken the
5 stand, his failure to take the stand can be viewed
6 in a different manner. And there has been case
7 law that indicates where one codefendant takes a
8 stand, it in essence forces -- it can be seen as
9 forcing the other defendant to take the stand
10 because of the prejudice that can be drawn from
11 his failure to take the stand when one does.
12 As a result of that, your Honor, with the
13 other factors that have previously been raised
14 when that one now becomes an additional factor
15 which was unbeknownst to the Court until it
16 actually occurs, we would renew our motion for
17 severance.
18 THE COURT: I am going to deny the
19 motion for severance again.
20 MR. FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, there are --
21 we are offering two sheets, but the record should
22 show that only the front sheet was referred to.
23 THE COURT: That is correct. The record
24 will so reflect.
25 MR. DAVIS: Number 1 and 2.

1 THE COURT: Make sure it shows a proffer
2 of proof for the State and the Court
3 sustained the objection to the document being
4 submitted to the jury. No objection was made by
5 either side as to the question referred to, and
6 the record will reflect that the testimony will
7 stand, but the document will not be received.
8 MR. PRICE: Thank you, your Honor.
10 MR. DAVIS: Judge, there is a document,
11 and I am not sure as to the date of this document,
12 but it was from the juvenile file of Damien Echols
13 regarding --
14 THE COURT: Is this the order?
15 MR. DAVIS: No, sir, this is -- and I
16 was wanting to cross-examine him regarding some of
17 the information contained in there. And I want to
18 be sure before I do it so that we don't delay
19 things any longer. I think that was obtained
20 through a court order just in general.
21 MR. FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, the record
22 should reflect that it does involve medical
23 records.
24 THE COURT: Do you have something to
25 add?

1 MR. DAVIDSON: Yes, your Honor, we
2 certainly object to the prosecutor's question
3 regarding this document. For one reason, we say
4 that it is too old of an incident in that it
5 happened over a year ago and no connection with
6 Damien Echols anytime near the murders.
7 Also, we would say that this is under 404-B,
8 that other crimes, wrongs or acts, evidence of
9 other crimes, wrongs or acts is not admissible to
10 prove the character of the person in order to show
11 that he acted in conformity therewith.
12 All they are trying to do is to bring this in
13 in order to prejudice the jury. There has been no
14 testimony that he has done anything alleged in
15 there in connection with this case. Maybe if it
16 had been Jason Baldwin, it would be a different
17 situation. But there certainly has not been
18 anything with regard to Damien Echols in that
19 regard.
20 We also say that this does not prove motive
21 because there has been no testimony to say that he
22 was been involved in that sort of activity, does
23 not prove motive, opportunity, attempt,
24 preparation, plan, knowledge, identity, are
25 absent.

1 So, therefore, your Honor, we would say that
2 it would be under just regular 403 -- it would be
3 more prejudicial than probative -- and say that
4 they should not be able to question him regarding
5 this.
6 MR. DAVIS: Judge, where we think the
7 relevance lies is that the defendant took the
8 stand yesterday and presented a calm, very placid
9 demeanor on the witness stand. He indicated that
10 he was on medication at the time he testified.
11 This particular incident allegedly occurred
12 where he sucked the blood out of an injury of a
13 fellow inmate, and it occurred when he was
14 allegedly off his medication. My intended line of
15 questioning is going to be his reaction to, how he
16 reacts when he is on medication versus when he is
17 off.
18 THE COURT: I will allow that.
19 MR. DAVIS: And this is an example of
20 how he acts.
21 MR. DAVIDSON: I don't think you can
22 bring that in as a prior bad act to show that he
23 acted in conformity therewith.
24 THE COURT: No, I will give a cautionary
25 instruction that it is offered -- it might go to

1 something other than to motive.
2 MR. PRICE: Judge, the State has no
3 evidence that my client was off any kind of
4 medication. They have no evidence that medication
5 was taken, on whatever date this is, is the same
6 medication he was taking on May 5.
7 MR. FORD: It's hearsay. The statement
8 says he was on medication is hearsay.
9 THE COURT: Sure. It is hearsay. The
10 statement itself obviously is hearsay. But yeah,
11 I think he can be permitted to inquire of the
12 defendant since he has taken the stand about his --
13 I am assuming that was while he has been in jail?
14 MR: PRICE: No, sir. This was a year
15 before the murder, Judge.
16 MR. DAVIS: Prior incident.
17 MR. DAVIDSON: Prior act, prior bad act.
18 MR. PRICE: This is not even since he
19 has been in -- the past year since he has been in
20 jail. This is a year prior to that, at least to
21 the date itself is long before it.
22 MR. DAVIDSON: Again, we would also
23 renew the fact that this came out of his juvenile
24 record.
25 MR. DAVIS: Your Honor, I think it is

1 important that the jury realize that the demeanor
2 of the person they see on the witness stand is the
3 demeanor of a person that is under medication and
4 that his demeanor while not on that medication can
5 change. Whether or not he was on medication on
6 May the 5th is a fact issue for the jury to
7 determine.
8 THE COURT: I am going to allow you to
9 inquire into the medication, how his conduct may
10 alter when he is not on it.
11 MR. PRICE: Even though we are not
12 arguing -- we have not argued any type of insanity
13 in this case, your Honor. It is the State that
14 doesn't want it.
15 THE COURT: You interjected that he was
16 a manic depressive.
17 MR. PRICE: No sir, the State did that
18 by their question.
19 THE COURT: I think he volunteered it
20 under cross-examination that he was taking
21 some type of medication. I am going to allow you
22 to inquire into his mood swings. I think you
23 probably need to stay away from something that
24 happened a year ago, though.
25 MR. PRICE: What was the last comment,

1 your Honor?
2 THE COURT: I am going to allow the
3 State to inquire into mood swings.
4 MR. PRICE: But you said to stay away
5 something that happened a year ago. Then
6 that means they can't use this, Judge. This
7 happened a year prior to the murders.
8 MR. DAVIS: The question I have is if he
9 gets on the witness stand and says, "I am no
10 different when I am off my medication than when I
11 am on it."
12 THE COURT: Then perhaps you might be
13 able to impeach him with that. So, I mean, it
14 just depends on how it develops whether I will
15 allow that. Right now, I am not going to allow
16 it.
17 MR. PRICE: Judge, this report would be
18 extrinsic evidence and you can't impeach anybody
19 on collateral --
20 THE COURT: I am not going to allow the
21 report to be introduced under any circumstances.
22 Whatever his answers are, they will be bound by
23 them.
24 MR. PRICE: Will the court be limiting
25 the State to the time on this incident because

1 this report doesn't even have a time to it? It
2 could be '92, could be '91, Judge.
3 THE COURT: The time certainly is a
4 factor that I consider. I am not sure that a year
5 is that remote. However, I have given my thoughts
6 on it that that issue stay away from that inquiry
7 at this time. Okay?
8 MR. PRICE: All right.
9 THE COURT: All right, call the jury
10 back in.
11 (jury in the box.)
12 THE COURT: Mr. Echols, you will need to
13 go back to the witness stand.
14 All right, ladies and gentlemen, just
15 before we adjourned for the evening yesterday, you
16 had received some evidence relative to some
17 writings that had come from the jail. You are to
18 consider that evidence only in relation to the
19 defendant Damien Echols and not as to Jason
20 Baldwin. All right, you may proceed.
23 Q. Mr. Echols, the same rules as yesterday. I ask a
24 question. If you don't understand it, please ask me to
25 repeat it.

1 A. Okay.
2 Q. Now, yesterday I asked you some general questions
3 about, you had indicated that you and Jason quite
4 frequently walked around areas of West Memphis?
5 A. Yes, sir.
6 Q. Okay. I want to direct your attention on this
7 diagram -- in fact, let me circle it. This area right
8 in here which would be, I believe, east of -- is that
9 14th?
10 A. Yes, sir.
11 Q. It is east of 14th Street and south of the service
12 road and the interstate. In that particular
13 neighborhood, Market Street, Goodwin, in there, did you
14 and Jason frequently walk and roam in that area, the
15 same neighborhood where the three victims lived?
16 A. I think by looking at the map I would have had to.
17 Q. How often?
18 A. Probably in that area maybe twice a week.
19 Q. For how long a period?
20 A. A few years.
21 Q. How many?
22 A. Probably at least two years.
23 Q. All right. And that, when you told us yesterday
24 that you hadn't been over in that area, the residential
25 area near Robin Hood Hills, were you just not thinking

1 of that particular area?
2 A. No, when you said "neighborhood," I just didn't
3 know what you are talking about, what that neighborhood
4 is.
5 Q. But when I specified that particular area, the
6 neighborhood that I circled, you were there two or
7 three times a week?
8 A. Probably an average of two to three times a week.
9 Q. And what would the purpose be over there? Would
10 you all just being walking around the neighborhood?
11 A. I had to walk through there to get from my house
12 to Jason's house. I would have to walk through there
13 to get from my house to Domini's house or anywhere in
14 Marion.
15 Q. Okay. Where were you living at the time?
16 A. At the time I was arrested, Broadway Trailer Park.
17 Q. Okay. Well, when you were walking over here --
18 this is the interstate, didn't you -- where, if you
19 could, show me where you lived?
20 A. Right here (indicating), somewhere along in there.
21 Q. So you lived south of Broadway?
22 A. Uh-huh.
23 Q. And what time period was that? When did you quit
24 living south of Broadway?
25 A. When I was arrested.

1 Q. Okay. And your only reason to walk through here
2 would be to go to and from Jason's residence?
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 A. And that's the path you would take, you and Jason
5 would take a path through here and over there?
6 A. Yes, sir.
7 Q. And that would be two or three times a week?
8 A. On an average.
9 Q. Did you have anybody else in that neighborhood
10 that you visited or that you went over and were at
11 their house or anything of that nature?
12 A. Probably, there is several people in Lakeshore.
13 Q. Not in Lakeshore, in the neighborhood we circled.
14 A. No, but I had to go through there to get to
15 Lakeshore.
16 Q. Now, let me refer you back to your statement that
17 you gave Officer Ridge. Did you tell him in that
18 statement that you had been a member of a white witch
19 group for five years?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. So, if that is contained in his report that
22 you told him that you had been a wiccan or white witch
23 for five years, that would be inaccurate?
24 A. I told him that. I did not say I was a member of
25 a group.

1 Q. But you had been -- he says, "He has been a member
2 of this group for about five years."
3 A. I have never been a member of any group.
4 Q. And so, if he put that in his report, you are
5 saying that's inaccurate?
6 A. Yes, I am.
7 Q. He made that up?
8 A. Yes, I am.
9 Q. Now, you told us yesterday what medication -- are
10 you on that today?
11 A. I take it -- last night.
12 Q. Okay. And it is an antidepressant?
13 A. Uh-huh.
14 Q. Okay. And how long have you been on that
15 medication?
16 A. A couple of years, guess.
17 Q. And what is the name of it?
18 A. Imipramine.
19 Q. And it has a calming or relaxing affect on you,
20 correct?
21 A. It makes me sleepy.
22 Q. Okay. And it keeps you calm, true?
23 A. I can't tell that I am any calmer whenever I take
24 it. I just go to sleep real easy.
25 Q. What do you take that for?

1 A. Depression.
2 Q. Okay. Are you a manic depressive?
3 A. Yes, I am.
4 Q. Okay. Describe for us what happens when you don't
5 take your medication and you go into a manic state?
6 A. I cry.
7 Q. This is in a manic state?
8 A. Uh-huh. I stay by myself most of the time closed
9 up. If I don't take the medicine, I get headaches. I
10 get nauseous, just generally depressed.
11 Q. Well, that's the depressive state of a manic
12 depressive, correct?
13 A. Yes.
14 Q. What is the manic state like?
15 A. What do you mean?
16 Q. When you are in a manic phase. A manic depressive
17 is somebody who has big highs and big lows, right?
18 A. Yeah.
19 Q. Tell us about the big highs. Is that where you
20 feel nearly invincible?
21 A. Yeah.
22 Q. When you are on one of those highs?
23 A. Yes.
24 Q. And that's what you get when your medication gets
25 out of level, right?

1 A. Right.
2 Q. And you get that feeling that you are invincible,
3 that there's nothing you can't accomplish, correct?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. Now, has that condition, did that lead to the
6 incident when you were in school where you attacked the
7 the boy and tried to claw his eyes out?
8 MR. PRICE: Objection, your Honor, to
9 the relevancy of this incident. 404-B. This is
10 certainly not relevant. That certainly can't go
11 to motive which the State has been alleging. This
12 is not, even if they are claiming this is a bad
13 act, we object to this, your Honor. It's
14 completely irrelevant.
15 MR. DAVIS: Your honor, your honor, he
16 has indicated that he has different, he presents a
17 demeanor here of someone that's calm and quiet and
18 passive. But he has indicated that when that
19 medication -- he is on his medication now -- when
20 that medication is out of whack, what I am asking
21 is a question, when his medication is like that,
22 there has been instances where he has committed
23 violent acts and is it connected to this
24 medication and is it connected to his swings as a
25 result of what he says is an illness that he

1 suffers from. Because that's important, his
2 condition and his actions are important in this
3 trial to determine what his conduct was on the
4 night in question.
5 MR. DAVIDSON: Your Honor, that's a
6 medical question. If Mr. Davis wanted to bring a
7 medical doctor in here, he certainly could have.
8 It's a medical question. This incident that
9 happened so many years ago, it's not relevant.
10 MR. PRICE: This incident happened two
11 or three years prior to the murders, your Honor.
12 This certainly cannot go to any kind of motivation
13 which is the only way it would fit under 404-B.
14 MR. DAVIS: Your Honor, they put on
15 testimony yesterday in direct about what a quiet,
16 passive, peace-loving wiccan this defendant is.
17 And I want to be able to go into evidence, and as
18 far as his conduct is concerned, that that rebuts
19 that, to show that that isn't the true character
20 of the witness.
21 MR. PRICE: Judge, may we approach?
22 THE COURT: All right.
25 MR.DAVIDSON: Your Honor, this is the

1 same incident as the other. He is trying to bring
2 up these bad acts that are so far removed from the
3 MR. PRICE: Judge, we are not arguing
4 self-defense. We are not putting our client's
5 peacefulness into evidence. We have not -- if we
6 argue self-defense, perhaps it might be relevant,
7 but otherwise, it's not.
8 MR. DAVIS: they went on ad nauseam
9 about this yesterday telling us what a peaceful
10 individual he was, how he was motivated only by
11 good intentions and his character and things of
12 that nature.
13 MR. PRICE: We haven't put his character
14 into evidence. Just because a defendant testifies
15 does not put his character into evidence, your
16 Honor.
17 THE COURT: And you are just saying that
18 it is being offered to rebut the peaceable
19 character of the defendant?
20 MR. DAVIS: Nice guy that the defendant
21 said he was yesterday, the nonviolent, the
22 peace-lover that wouldn't engage in anything that
23 was violent, would never be involved in any --
24 MR. DAVIDSON: that testimony didn't
25 come out, your Honor.

1 MR. DAVIS: It sure did. He said,
2 "Gosh, I wouldn't be involved. In fact, I think,
3 I saw it on TV last night. I wouldn't be involved
4 in a human sacrifice. I am a wiccan. I am a
5 white witch. I don't do anything, not in
6 violence."
7 THE COURT: I am going to allow you
8 limited opportunity to question him about any
9 violent outbursts that he might have had.
10 MR. PRICE: Three years prior to the
11 murder?
12 THE COURT: I am not saying at any time.
13 I am going to allow him to ask in general, does he
14 have those mood swings where he becomes violent
15 and uncontrollably violent without going into
16 specific acts of conduct and then pass on, pass
17 on.
18 MR. PRICE: There is no evidence that
19 this is a result of medication, your Honor.
20 THE COURT: I am going to allow you to
21 ask that particularly when he has testified that
22 he is on the mood altering course of medication.
23 I am going to allow him to ask if you don't take
24 medication, do you have mood swings where you feel
25 like you are God or whatever and where you get

1 angry and violent.
2 MR. PRICE: I am going to object to
3 that.
4 THE COURT: I am going to allow him to
5 ask that.
6 Maybe not use the term "God," but
7 invincible, I think is what you used or something.
8 But I am going to ask you to avoid specific
9 incidents of conduct unless they are in close
10 proximity to the, you know, to the time of the
11 trial -- incident.
12 MR. PRICE: Judge, three years is not
13 close proximity. This was three years ago.
14 MR. FORD: When was it?
15 MR. FOGLEMAN: It was after Damien and
16 Deanna broke up.
17 THE COURT: It was after?
18 MR. FOGLEMAN: After Damien and Deanna
19 broke up.
20 MR. DAVIS: They would have probably
21 been broke up, it should be early '92.
22 MR. PRICE: Year and half prior to the
23 murder, Judge. That is still not close proximity.
24 MR. DAVIS: About a year. I don't think
25 time, I mean, a person's conduct and tendency

1 towards violent activity, and that doesn't, that's
2 not something that changes on a month-to-month
3 basis, particularly if it is as a result of, you
4 know -- we need to know if those incidents weren't
5 the result of medication, then that's not -- then
6 we need to -- the jury needs to know that.
7 MR. DAVIDSON: Your Honor, we will have
8 to bring a doctor in then to testify as to
9 medications.
10 THE COURT: You may have to. Rule 404
11 seems to allow you to go into a trait of character
12 of the accused if you are trying to rebut the
13 peaceful nature of him.
14 MR. PRICE: But, Judge, if you read on,
15 that is only if, if it is offered in a homicide
16 case to rebut evidence that we were the first
17 aggressor. It only applies if it is brought in
18 self-defense. We have never argued self-defense;
19 so, it is not admissible under 404.2.
20 THE COURT: It's a victim, that of the
21 victim.
22 MR. DAVIS: This is cross-examination, I
23 mean.
24 THE COURT: I am going to allow you to
25 cross-examine him as to his mood swing and his

1 violence, if he has any. But I want you to avoid
2 specific incidents of conduct unless it is in
3 close proximity of the date of the crime.
4 MR. PRICE: This is not within -- it's
5 over a year old, Judge, is not close proximity.
6 THE COURT: I am suggesting that maybe
7 you don't go into the specific incidents of
8 conduct
11 Q. Mr. Echols, when you have these mood swings and
12 your medication is out of balance, do you have, do you
13 get violent sometimes?
14 A. Only toward myself.
15 Q. So you are telling us that these mood swings that
16 occur, you don't get violent toward other people?
17 A. It just makes me suicidal.
18 Q. So your acts of violence toward other people have
19 been the result not of any medication but just, just
20 out of anger?
21 A. My medication doesn't affect how I deal with other
22 people.
23 Q. The incident in Oregon, you had an altercation
24 with your father out there is why you came back before
25 they did, right?

1 MR. PRICE: Your Honor, again we object.
2 The Court just ruled within close proximity. This
3 is not within close proximity. We object, and we
4 want you to admonish the prosecutor he cannot get
5 into this line of questioning. You just ruled
6 within close proximity. This is not within close
7 proximity, and we object.
8 MR. DAVIS: As I understand it, your
9 Honor, it was in the fall of '92 which we are
10 getting closer in proximity. I don't know exactly
11 where the cutoff mark is.
12 THE COURT: Well, approach the bench
13 again.
16 THE COURT: The problem I have got now
17 is I think the question he asked was generic
18 enough and was proper about mood swings, and I
19 think that is appropriate under the circumstances
20 here. He has testified that he doesn't get
21 violent toward other people only toward himself
22 and only gets suicidal. And I think it's proper
23 to rebut that he get suicidal by showing an act
24 of violence toward another person that occurred
25 within a year of the crime. I am going to allow

1 that.
2 MR. PRICE: The State raised the same
3 question yesterday about these acts. We objected
4 and your Honor sustained the objection. We object
5 to your Honor reversing your rulings at this
6 point.
7 THE COURT: I am going to allow that. That
8 is within eight, nine months of the crime.
9 MR. DAVIS: And I think the question
10 yesterday was directed to someone other than, I
11 mean, was directed to his mother. This is him.
12 THE COURT: This is him. I am going to
13 allow it. Overruled.
16 Q. It's true that you came back from Oregon before
17 your parents did, correct?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And you basically were sent back here because you
20 had had a disagreement, an altercation with your
21 father, correct?
22 A. The reason I came back was because I was homesick.
23 Q. You had an altercation with your father right
24 before you came back, correct?
25 A. Yes.

1 Q. And that altercation resulted in the police being
2 called, didn't it?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. And in that altercation, was that one of those
5 instances where you got angry as a result of your
6 medication being off?
7 A. They called the police because I was locking
8 myself in my room and was about to commit suicide.
9 Q. And you had some knives in there with you, too,
10 didn't you?
11 A. Yes.
12 Q. And when your father came in, you told him you
13 would eat him alive, didn't you?
14 A. No, that happened at the hospital.
15 Q. Oh, you told him that at the hospital?
16 A. Uh-huh.
17 Q. Okay. And it was during this time period, was
18 this a time period when your medication was out of
19 balance?
20 A. No.
21 Q. Okay. So you did these things when your
22 medication was normal?
23 A. I had been drinking that night.
24 Q. Now, as a result of that, you were hospitalized,
25 correct?

1 A. Right.
2 Q. And as soon as you got out of the hospital, you
3 got shipped back to Arkansas?
4 A. Right.
5 Q. And they took those knives away from you? One of
6 them was a boot knife, correct, something that you hide
7 down in your boot?
8 A. Yes.
9 Q. Okay. And you had a couple of others, I believe?
10 A. Uh-huh.
11 Q. Okay. And they had to take those away from you,
12 correct?
13 A. They asked me for them, and I gave it to them.
14 Q. When the police arrived?
15 A. No.
16 Q. Did the police have to take you into custody?
17 A. No.
18 Q. Now, you testified yesterday about the questions
19 that were asked to you on the questionnaire. Do you
20 remember who asked you those questions?
21 A. I think it was Detective Ridge.
22 Q. Okay. And he asked to you on question 3, "Why
23 would someone do this?" Do you remember him asking you
24 that?
25 A. Uh-huh.

1 Q. Okay. And your response was that the person was
2 sick or a satanist, is that correct?
3 A. He asked me was it possible if they could be a
4 satanist, and I said, "Yeah, I guess."
5 Q. Okay. So it's your testimony that you didn't say
6 that the person was sick or a satanist, that Mr. Ridge,
7 the officer, is the one who made those statements and
8 you just agreed?
9 A. That's correct.
10 Q. Okay. So, those weren't your words? Officer
11 Ridge was talking about a satanist, not you?
12 A. Right.
13 Q. Okay. Now, on question number 9 when he asked you
14 how you think they died and the answer is, "Mutilation,
15 cut up all three, heard they were in the water
16 drowning, cut up one more than the others." Is that
17 again what Officer Ridge said and you just agreed?
18 A. No, I had saw that on TV, newspapers, people
19 talking.
20 Q. And you knew about the drowning, correct?
21 A. I knew they were in the water. I didn't know that
22 they drowned.
23 Q. You knew that one was cut up more than the others?
24 A. Whenever they were asking me about mutilation, I
25 thought different from mutilation. What I call

1 mutilation was different from what I seen up here.
2 Q. I was asking about one being cut up more than the
3 others.
4 A. He asked me was it possible. He said, "Do you
5 think one was hurt worse than the others?" I said,
6 "Yeah, I guess."
7 Q. Oh, so again that particular area was one of those
8 things where Officer Ridge told you and that wasn't
9 your response? You just responded about the drowning
10 and mutilation?
11 A. If he didn't get the answer he liked, he would go
12 back and try to get me to say something else.
13 Q. And it is your testimony specifically that you
14 weren't the one who said one was cut up more than the
15 other?
16 A. No, I did not.
17 Q. That was Officer Ridge that said that?
18 A. I agreed with him when he said that.
19 Q. Okay. But the other parts of that answer were
20 your words, not Mr. Ridge's?
21 A. (Indicating)
22 Q. Question number 11, "How do you think the person
23 feels that did this?" The answer was, "Probably makes
24 them feel good, gives them power." Now, I guess
25 Officer Ridge said that, too?

1 A. No, I used common sense on that. If someone was
2 doing it, then they must have wanted to. And if they
3 were doing something they wanted to, it must have made
4 them happy. I don't think they were doing it because
5 someone forced them to or because they didn't want to.
6 Q. So in your mind the person that killed these three
7 kids, it is common sense that killing three
8 eight-year-olds would make you feel good?
9 A. Whoever did it, it must have.
10 Q. Okay. And it gives them power. That's also
11 another common sense perspective from you?
12 A. Pretty much.
13 Q. Now, when you say, "gives them power," is that
14 based on what you have read in these books?
15 A. No, it had nothing to do with that, just the crime
16 itself.
17 Q. Killing three eight-year-olds gives you power. I
18 don't understand that. Explain that to me.
19 A. They probably thought, well, that they were like
20 overcoming other humans or something.
21 Q. Now, on question number 19, he asked you, "Had you
22 ever wondered what it would be like to kill someone
23 even if you didn't go through with it?" And your
24 response, did you respond by saying, "Gosh, I never
25 thought about killing anybody?"

1 A. I don't remember what I said.
2 Q. Did you tell him you never thought about killing
3 people?
4 A. I don't remember.
5 Q. The response was -- let's see if I can read your
6 writing --
7 MR. PRICE: Judge, we object, your
8 Honor. That is not my client's writing.
9 MR. DAVIS: Okay. Your Honor, I can't
10 read Officer Sudbury's writing.
11 Q. You responded to him that whatever you do can come
12 back to you three times over?
13 A. Three times as bad or as good.
14 Q. And where did you get that statement? That was
15 your remark, right?
16 A. Right.
17 Q. Is that something that you learned when you were
18 practicing to be a Catholic?
19 A. No.
20 Q. Where did you pick that up?
21 A. I don't remember. I guess I've just heard it all
22 my life.
23 Q. Now, Officer Ridge has that when you were asked
24 these questions that you say, "It was a thrill kill."
25 Is that your words?

1 A. He asked me what did I think could be the possible
2 motivation.
3 Q. Okay. And you indicated a thrill kill, is that
4 right?
5 A. Right.
6 Q. Or a satanic act?
7 A. Right.
8 Q. And also it says in here that there was a number
9 of three victims, and it was symbolic because three is
10 a special number in some of these religions. Is that
11 your response?
12 A. No.
13 Q. Is that your words?
14 A. I wondered what three had to do with it because he
15 made a big deal out of me wearing three earrings. And
16 anything with the number 3, he was making a big deal
17 out of it. I didn't understand that.
18 Q. So, that wasn't your response? You are saying
19 that Officer Ridge made that up and you just went along
20 with it?
21 I agreed with him so he would leave me alone.
22 Q. But the significance of the three victims and that
23 sort of thing, Mr. Ridge back on May 10th was the one
24 who made that connection?
25 A. Right.

1 Q. And that -- did you also tell him that each person
2 had a demonic side to them?
3 A. I believe every person has a good side and a bad
4 side, yes.
5 Q. Were those your words when you referred, when
6 you've got written down here, you stated there was no
7 control of the demonic portion of people?
8 A. He asked me did I think there were some people
9 that could not control that side. And I said, "Yes, I
10 guess there is."
11 Q. That was your -- who used the word "demonic"?
12 A. I don't know if it was me or him.
13 Q. Is that something you have read about in some of
14 your books and things and literature you studied?
15 A. Not really. It's common sense.
16 Q. It also states that Damien stated that the younger
17 of the victims would be more innocent and in turn more
18 power would be given the person doing the killing.
19 A. Right.
20 Q. Did you say that?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. Those are your words?
23 A. Uh-huh.
24 Q. Kind of sounds like that guy we talked about
25 yesterday, right?

1 A. Uh-huh.
2 Q. Mr. Crowley?
3 A. Yes.
4 Q. Is that where you got that idea?
5 A. I saw it on several movies, books.
6 Q. Did you pick that up when you studying to be
7 a Catholic?
8 A. No.
9 Q. You also said and told Officer Ridge, is it not
10 correct that you told him that the killer knew the kids
11 went out there, knew the kids and asked the kids to
12 meet them out there? Is that what you told him?
13 A. He asked me was that possible, and I said, "Yes."
14 Q. So once again, are you saying that you didn't say
15 this, that he just threw out the idea there and you
16 just agreed to it?
17 A. Right.
18 Q. And if he says something different, that would be,
19 he would be lying about it, right? You are the one
20 telling the truth?
21 A. I wouldn't put it past him.
22 Q. Did you also tell him that they would be not big --
23 speaking of the three eight-year-olds that were
24 murdered -- they would be not big, not smart, and easy
25 to control?

1 A. Right.
2 Q. And you told him that?
3 A. He asked me why did I think they chose those
4 victims.
5 Q. Did you tell him about the killer not being
6 worried about the victims screaming because it was
7 located near an interstate where the noise level was
8 high?
9 A. No, I told him it was because they were in the
10 woods.
11 Q. Oh, in the woods? And you indicated those were
12 your words to the officer that the killer wouldn't
13 worry about the screams because the woods would be such
14 that people couldn't hear them?
15 A. He asked me did I think that they were worried
16 about the screams or if they tried to stop them from
17 screaming. And I said, "No," and he asked me, "Why
18 not?" And I said "Well, they were out in the woods;
19 so, I don't guess there would be anybody there to hear
20 them scream; so, why would he be worried about it."
21 Q. And did you also tell him that the killer would
22 probably want to hear the kids screaming?
23 A. If he got off on killing people, he probably would
24 like to hear them scream.
25 Q. Those were your words, though, right?

1 A. Right.
2 Q. And is that also part of the common sense that
3 whoever kills eight-year-olds can feel good and whoever
4 kills eight-year-olds would like to hear them scream,
5 is that part of your common-sense philosophy?
6 A. I figured they must have if they did it.
7 Q. And you told him that the person was probably
8 someone local, didn't you?
9 A. Uh-huh.
10 Q. And that they probably wouldn't try to leave town,
11 correct?
12 A. Correct.
13 Q. Now he also asked you about what books you liked
14 to read, didn't he?
15 A. Uh-huh.
16 Q. And you told him one. You told him Steven King,
17 right?
18 A. Uh-huh.
19 Q. And he wrote that down?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. And you told him Anton LaVey, correct?
22 A. He asked. I haven't read anything by him, but I
23 know who he is.
24 Q. How did he get Steven King?
25 A. Because he was looking through my books in my

1 room.
2 Q. But I mean, how did he write that name down? Who
3 told him Steven King was one of your favorite authors?
4 A. He asked me did I like him. I said, yes, I did.
5 Q. Did he ask you about Anton LaVey?
6 A. Yes, he did.
7 Q. And what did you tell him?
8 A. I said I haven't read anything by him, but I am
9 familiar with him.
10 Q. And he is the head of the church, the satanist
11 church?
12 A. Yes, he is.
13 Q. Now, did he also ask you about what type of things
14 you would expect to find at the scene where these three
15 boys were murdered?
16 A. If it was a satanic killing.
17 Q. If it was a satanic killing?
18 A. Yes.
19 Q. And was one of those things -- did you tell him
20 what those things were you would expect to find?
21 A. Yes.
22 Q. And one of those things you told him, one of those
23 things you told him were candles, right?
24 A. Right.
25 Q. Did you hear the testimony from Lisa Sakevicius

1 from the state crime lab that there was candle wax on
2 the shirt of one of the victims? Did you hear that,
3 Mr. Echols?
4 A. Yes, I did.
5 Q. That's consistent with what you told the officer,
6 isn't it?
7 A. Yes, it is.
8 Q. You have just told us that that is consistent with
9 a satanic murder, didn't you?
10 A. Yes.
11 Q. Would it be a fair statement to say that you wore
12 that trench coat that you talked about just about
13 everywhere you went?
14 A. Pretty much.
15 Q. Even on up first of May, middle of May, out there
16 at the softball park in the middle of May as hot as it
17 is, you still had this full-length, black trench coat
18 on, correct?
19 A. I don't think I wore it that night, but I wore it
20 around in that area, yes. I wear it pretty much all
21 the time.
22 Q. Even when it was hot?
23 A. Correct.
24 Q. Is that part of your liking to wear black?
25 A. Yes, that and I just liked the coat, period.

1 Q. Even -- and it's your testimony that that coat was
2 at your house the night that you were arrested?
3 A. Yes, it was.
4 Q. And where was it?
5 A. Laying on the floor.
6 Q. Where?
7 A. In my sister's bedroom.
8 Q. Was it near the closet?
9 A. I think it was by the bed.
10 Q. Now, that closet in your sister's bedroom is where
11 you kept your clothes, correct?
12 A. Yes.
13 Q. And so the clothes you would wear come out
14 of that closet?
15 A. Yes.
16 Q. Why do you think there was candle was on that
17 little victim's shirt?
18 A. It could have been whoever killed him did it. He
19 could have got it before he left home. I don't know.
20 MR. DAVIS: Pass the witness, your
21 Honor.
24 Q. Damien, you were asked earlier when Mr. Davis was
25 questioning you about the question that Officer Ridge

1 asked you about how do you think the murders took
2 place.
3 A. Uh-huh.
4 Q. And you answered, "Mutilation, all three were
5 probably cut up, one more than the other, heard they
6 drowned. Probably just one person did it."
7 A. Uh-huh.
8 Q. And he asked you why did you know that. And you
9 said because you heard it on TV and read it in the
10 newspaper --
11 A. (Indicating.)
12 Q. -- and other people were talking about it. Do you
13 recall him asking that question?
14 A. Right
15 Q. And your giving that answer?
16 A. Yes, sir.
17 Q. All right. Do you recall the Commercial Appeal
18 newspaper article on May the 7th, 1993. Read the
19 headline right there, please.
20 A. "Mutilated bodies of three boys found in bayou."
21 Q. And I have got another part that is also marked
22 here in, yeah, I guess, purple or whatever color that
23 is, pink, I guess the color. Please read that to the
24 jury.
25 MR. FOGLEMAN: Why don't we just offer

1 the whole thing there?
2 THE COURT: (Indicating.)
3 MR. PRICE: We may want to do that,
4 Judge. All right, that's fine, Judge.
5 THE COURT: All right, it may be
6 received without objection.
7 MR. FORD: Your Honor, I haven't looked
8 at it. I don't know what it is.
9 MR. PRICE: Commercial Appeal article.
10 I have one other one, Judge, that I would like to
11 go ahead and introduce. Let me ask my client to
12 read it first. This is a Commercial Appeal --
13 MR. FOGLEMAN: Let us see it before you
14 have him start reading this stuff.
15 MR. PRICE: Sure.
16 THE COURT: Do you have any other
17 newspapers?
18 MR. PRICE: Those are the only two,
19 Judge. Well, I have every newspaper article, but
20 I wasn't planning on introducing all the rest of
21 them.
22 THE COURT: Does anybody have the clip
23 file that has got the originals in it?
24 MR. DAVIS: I tell you what, Judge,
25 these need to be enlarged because somebody is

1 going to go blind.
2 THE COURT: That is what I am saying.
3 Does anybody have a clip file?
4 MR. PRICE: The ones that we have of
5 these three articles, Judge, are photocopies. I
6 don't know.
7 THE COURT: Somebody will have a clip
8 file, I am sure. If anybody objects to them, they
9 don't go it. So just tell me, and let's move it
10 along.
11 MR. DAVIDSON: Judge, I haven't seen the
12 second one.
13 THE COURT: We went to a lot of trouble
14 to make sure that the newspapers weren't involved
15 in it, and now you all want to offer them.
16 MR. PRICE: The only reason, Judge, is
17 the question the State asked of how my client knew
18 knowledge of some of the details of the murder.
19 And he could have read it in the newspaper
20 straight off the headlines.
21 MR. DAVIS: Your Honor, I think they can
22 ask that question. I think we would object if
23 nothing else just because everybody is going to
24 get a headache trying to read these.
25 MR. DAVIDSON: We will go downstairs and

1 enlarge them.
2 MR. DAVIS: And newspaper articles
3 aren't really appropriate evidence for a jury to
4 consider.
5 MR. PRICE: That's fine, Judge, as long
6 my client can read what the, the portion that I
7 want him to read, that's fine.
8 MR. DAVIS: Well, your Honor, he can say
9 whether he has read something in the newspaper,
10 but for him to read articles out of the newspaper
11 is not appropriate. I mean that's --
12 MR. PRICE: Judge, the State asked my
13 client what he told Ridge. He told him what he
14 told Ridge. The State asked, "Why did you know
15 that?" He said, "Because I read it out of the
16 newspaper and saw it on TV." We have the
17 newspapers.
18 Judge, these two particular papers that have
19 the specific details that he told Officer Ridge
20 are certainly relevant. The State can't come back
21 now and object because they are the ones that
22 opened the door and asked the question in the
23 first place.
24 THE COURT: I am going to let you ask
25 him if he read it and paraphrase from it, but

1 that's whether or not the articles themselves are
2 admissable. If anybody objects, then I sustain
3 the objection. If you don't object, then you put
4 in the kitchen sink.
5 MR. FORD: We object.
6 THE COURT: Is than an objection?
7 MR. FORD: Yes.
8 THE COURT: Sustained. Let's move
9 along.
11 Q. Mr. Echols, I asked you about the one on May the
12 7th. it is the one about mutilated bodies in the
13 bayou. And now I want to ask you about, this would
14 have been the next Commercial Appeal May 8th,
15 1993. You can read the headline and that first portion
16 of the page to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury.
17 A. "Autopsy showed three boys died of multiple blows
18 to the head.. The West Memphis boys found dead Thursday
19 in a slow-moving creek were killed by multiple head
20 blows, police's lead investigator said Friday."
21 Q. Okay. The State asked you earlier about an
22 incident with some kind of a fight or something that
23 you got into with a gentleman trying to claw his eyes
24 out or something. Do you remember that particular
25 incident?

1 A. Yes, I do.
2 Q. Do you remember when that occurred?
3 A. I am not sure what year or month or anything it
4 was, but I think it was when I was in ninth grade.
5 Q. Okay. Tell the jury who was involved in that and
6 the background of that.
7 MR. DAVIS: Your Honor, I don't
8 understand this. I asked questions about it, and
9 he objected and wouldn't let me go into it. Then
10 he stand up on redirect and starts asking about
11 an incident he said I couldn't go into. If he is
12 going to ask questions, then I --
13 THE COURT: I think I sustained your
14 objection, Mr. Price.
15 MR. PRICE: That's fine, Judge.
16 THE COURT: If you want --
17 MR. PRICE: That would be fine.
18 THE COURT: -- to go into it. Then I am
19 going let him develop it further.
20 MR. PRICE: That's fine.
21 MR. DAVIS: He has already opened this
22 door.
23 THE COURT: I had sustained the
24 objection to it.
25 MR. PRICE: That's fine, your Honor. No

1 further questions. Judge, I did not open the
2 door, and I object to Mr. Davis asking these
3 questions.
4 MR. DAVIS: He asked him a question
5 about somebody that he tried to claw his eyes out.
6 THE COURT: Let's move on.
7 MR. DAVIS: Okay.
10 Q. There was an incident where you jumped on somebody
11 at school and tried to claw his eyes out.
12 MR. PRICE: Your Honor, I object. I
13 just tried to ask the question. The State
14 objected, and so I sat down. And now they are
15 trying to ask about the question. You just said
16 you--
17 THE COURT: I think we have talked about
18 it enough.
19 MR. PRICE: -- so I sat down.
20 THE COURT: I think we have talked about
21 it enough.
22 MR. PRICE: Thank you, your Honor.
23 THE COURT: Let's move along. However,
24 you did open it up; so --
25 MR. PRICE: Well, all right --

1 THE COURT: -- and I had sustained your
2 objection to it originally.
3 MR. PRICE: All right. So are you
4 saying that it is open or it's closed now, your
5 Honor?
6 THE COURT: No, it's closed.
7 MR. PRICE: Thank you.
8 THE COURT: Let's move on.
9 MR. PRICE: Thank you.
11 Q. You told us -- are you telling us that you read
12 the Commercial Appeal every morning?
13 A. Not every morning, no.
14 Q. Are you saying that you read those articles in the
15 Commercial Appeal?
16 A. I am not sure if it was that specific one, but I
17 have read several of them.
18 Q. Well, those articles said something about
19 mutilated bodies, didn't they?
20 A. Uh-huh.
21 Q. Those articles didn't say a single thing about one
22 person being cut up worse than the other, did they?
23 A. No, they did not.
24 Q. Didn't get that out of the newspaper?
25 A. Uh-uh.

1 THE COURT: Anything else.
2 MR. PRICE: Nothing further, your Honor.
3 MR. FORD: No questions.
4 THE COURT: All right. You may stand
5 down. Call your next witness. Is there time for
6 a recess?
7 (Witness excused.)
8 MR. PRICE: That is fine, Judge.
9 THE COURT: Well, it is almost
10 impossible to take a 10-minute recess because it
11 just takes longet to get things done with the
12 facilities that we have; so, we can take a 15- to
13 20-minute recess with the usual admonition not to
14 discuss the case.
15 (A brief recess was had.)