The time is 9:24 we've in the office of Brent Davis with Prosecuting Attorney, at 1024 South Main, it's February 18th, 1994 and present um for this statement or Danny Williams and Brent Davis um, would you state your name for the purposes of the record?
Williams: Danny Williams
Davis: Okay, Danny would you raise your right hand and swear that the testimony statement your about give is the truth, the whole and nothing but the truth so help you God?
Williams: Yes
Davis: Okay, Danny your here pursuant to prosecuting attorney subpoena which I think uh, the Sheriff called you about and, and initially ask you to be here I believe on the 17th
Williams: That's correct
Davis: At 9:00 because of a scheduling conflict we re-arranged it for 9 on the 18th?
Williams: That's correct
Davis: Okay, Danny if you would state your age and address?
Williams: I'm 29 years old, I live at 2512 Forrest Home Road Apartment #22.
Davis: Okay, you may need to speak up so we will be sure and catch this, um, now Danny where are you employed?
Williams: Recovery Way Adolescence Treatment Programs
Davis: Okay, what is that? What kind of business?
Williams: Uh, it's a rehabilitation hospital for chemical dependant adolescences.
Davis: And what capacity are you employed with them?
Williams: I'm a assessment specialist for Recovery Way
Davis: Okay, what does a assessment specialist do?
Williams: I, go out and market our services to juveniles office, basically any organized that deals with adolescences and upon their request I visit with kids who are allegedly chemical dependant and make a treatment recommendation for those people.
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Davis: Okay, are there, do any counseling back ground credentials training education?
Williams: Yes, I have a bachelor of arts in psychology and criminal justice, and minor in sociology and certified suicidal intervention, I have had 100's of hours of seminar's and training sessions and various area of counseling
Davis: Okay, do you, as part of your job do you provide counseling to these individuals that you deal with?
Williams: Yes
Davis: Okay, and what form or shape is that counseling, what does that involve?
Williams: Basically it's just support counseling when kids get out of treatment or during an alcohol treatment and they come back to a community, my job is to help those kids in any way that I can, if they are having family problems, school problems, drug problems, or anything that comes up I make myself available to visit with those kids and do what ever I can to gave them support and assistance.
Davis: Okay, now in your job um, as you have describe did you have some contact with a Michael Carson from here or in Jonesboro area?
Williams: Yes, I did
Davis: Okay, and when, and I realize you may not have your file with you but to the best of your recollection when was your first contact with Michael Carson?
Williams: I couldn't be sure, it was um,
Davis: If it helps any from a reference I think he was in the Juvenile Detention Center out here in the early part of August of 1993
Williams: Okay, sometime after that, I don't believe he was still in detention, he could have been when um, when the Craighead County Juvenile, Juvenile Department ask me about um, doing a assessment on Michael to see if he needed further drug and alcohol treatment
Davis: Okay, and after that assessment what other contact did you have with him?
Williams: After that assessment I um, I went to, before he went to treatment
Davis: As a result of that assessment was he sent to treatment?
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Williams: Yes he was
Davis: And where was that?
Williams: Nowater, Oklahoma
Davis: Okay, and that's with a facility that your associated with?
Williams: Yes sir, Recovery Way operates that facility
Davis: Okay, how long would he had stayed there?
Williams: I believed Michael stayed about 28 days his stay was cut a little bit short because he had a court appearance uh, in another county and instead of transporting him back for his court date that we were unable to get out of and then taking him back, we went ahead and discharged him since he, had already had prior drug and alcohol treatment but, it was about 28 days
Davis: Okay, and you say he had prior alcohol and drug treatment before that before that admission?
Williams: Right
Davis: Do you know where that was?
Williams: That was at Wagoner, Oklahoma
Davis: Okay, are those facilities connected or related in anyway
Williams: No, no, no,
Davis: They happen to be in the same state?
Williams: Huh, they are just in the same state, Wagoner kept him until his insurance was exhausted and then discharged him
Davis: Okay, um, now you said that he had, had to be brought back because he had a legal matter in another county do you know which county that was?
Williams: I don't remember, uh, uh, no I don't remember
Davis: Okay, uh, do you remember what it was about or what it regarded?
Williams: It was regarding some pass um, criminal charges I believe, if I'm not mistaken for he broke into somebody's truck and stole some guns or something, I'm not sure he had numerous criminal charges and I'm not sure
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Williams: (con't) exactly what he appeared in court on.
Davis: Okay, now after he was, his admission to the hospital or to the facility you work for, and his release did you follow him after that time?
Williams: Yes I did
Davis: Okay, how frequently would you have contact with him?
Williams: I'm on a average about once a week, and then occasionally I would just stop by the alternative school after he was enrolled in the alternative school and visit with his teacher and counselor's and see how he was doing and you know just visit with him and just say you know are you going to your meetings or you doing what your suppose to do, call me if you need me, that kind of stuff.
Davis: Okay, um, how do you have a estimate how many times that month you had some contact with him during that time period?
Williams: I would say 2 or 3 times a month
Davis: Okay, was he, did he enroll in alternative school?
Williams: Yes
Davis: Okay, and was he, as far, did he attend and go to his classes?
Williams: The reports I have from the alternative school state that when he got out of treatment he did make a honest effort to get enrolled in school, there was some hang up it was a few days after he got back, before he exactingly got enrolled, but um, the school um, Clare Nest and the other teachers, the other counselor's/teacher that I always talked to, um it very rarely if ever reported any problem, he had good attendance and um, and they seem very fond of Michael
Davis: Okay, um, doing the, it's my understanding that at some point you contacted the defense attorney's for Jason Baldwin and said you had some information regarding this case?
Williams: That's not necessary true um, after Michael had told me that he had made a statement I called um, the defense attorney and said um, if this witness name comes up um, I think we would probably need to talk
Davis: Okay
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Williams: So I guess that answers your statement or your question was true, but um, I did say if something with this kid comes up we probably need to talk
Davis: Okay, when, and I realize that you don't have time, but to the best of you recollection about when was it that you contacted the defense attorney? Seeing through this is the middle of February now?
Williams: The best way I could gauge that time would be um, I talked to Michael a couple of days after he made the statement to the police, it was couple days after that, when I first contacted the defense attorney's office
Davis: Okay, so Mike, it was a few days after Michael had already made a formal statement to law enforcement?
Williams: That's correct
Davis: Okay, and this the scenario would be that Michael told you he made these statements and then you called Paul Ford? Is that, is that accurate?
Williams: Yes
Davis: And told Paul Ford that if his name appeared on a witness list that he might want to talk to you about what had gone on?
Williams: That's correct
Davis: Did you explain to Paul Ford why it was you felted it was necessary for you, for them to contact you should his name appear on a witness list?
Williams: Yes I did
Davis: And, and what did you tell him generally?
Williams: I told him that I had meet with Michael sometime in December and I felted very uneasy and very bad that I had discussion some rumors or facts about this case and some things I had heard, about um satanic related killings and that, what Michael had told me uh, strongly indicated to me that he had basically repeated what I had told him to the police and I felted pretty guilty that testimony was going to be used
Davis: Okay, and specifically if you recall what was it that you had discussed with Michael previously before he went to the police about satanic killings
Williams: We were talking about the conversation I
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Williams: (con't) believe was initiated um, we were talking about detention, and the kind of kids that were in detention, and uh, we got to talking about the West Memphis case, and I told Michael either that, I don't remember if I told him that this allegedly happened in this case or in a lot of satanic related killings that um, the scrotum or testicles are cut the victim, that blood is used in the significance, um that sometime they use the scrotum to drink blood from their victims and I don't remember, I think I remember something about um, the victims might have been allegedly their skin removed, um, other than that I'm not
Davis: Okay
Williams: Real sure
Davis: So you indicated that you may have mentioned to Michael that either, would it have been specifically in regard to this case or as a general rule that skin was removed from victims in satanic killings?
Williams: I believe that the skin be removed I believe was related to the West Memphis case
Davis: Okay, now the part about, about, the testicles being removed, the scrotum being removed, the penis uh cut off is where did you get that information from? When you told him or mentioned it to him?
Williams: I couldn't be sure, I attended a um, um, several workshops over the past years, one of these was in Austin, one of them was in Oklahoma, um where the, the satanist belief that all the power comes from sexual organs and the blood, but as far as being specific on where I got that I'm not sure
Davis: Okay, and so would what you said to him, was it in regards to it was specifically happened in the West Memphis case or was in general that what happens sometimes satanic murders?
Williams: I couldn't be sure of that we were talking about both together like you know, um, in my mind the statement was, was made or close statement I said something like, you know I don't know these kids are accused of it but, in a lot of cases or a scenario is this, or a scenario is that uh, but, as far as saying this happened in the West Memphis case I couldn't, I don't remember.
Davis: Okay, and would it be fair to say that kinda the context under which this came up was he telling who he, at least uh, rooming with or who was president of the detention facility and you were telling him basically why so of these people might be, for lack of a better word some
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Davis: (con't) pretty bad folks uh based on what they were all allegedly involved in?
Williams: Yes the conversation was initiation by him talking about um, I don't want to go back to the detention I don't want to go to training school to something like, and I said well I understand that especially considering some of the, some of the individuals you been in detention with, and we talked about, um, I belief the boys name was Leonard Martivez and something else about being charged with murder um, and um, and um, the Baldwin kid being charged with murder
Davis: Okay, and thing else that you told Mr. Ford or um, that you thought he should know that he may rely on, or may talk to you about, or ask you to testify to at the trial?
Williams: We talked about that I do have a problem sometimes with Michael telling the truth, that Michael seems to apparently after Clare and, and other females that he deals with apparently when he's with me I don't know if it's me or if it's with males in general that he fabricates or appears to fabricate a lot stories to try and impress me or to convince me that he's a real good kid, which is not necessary unusually with our kids, I have a lot of kids who are 100% honest who fabricate stories, but Michael's seem to be rather extremum and Mr. Ford and I uh, discussed a few of those instances
Davis: If you would, must you recall what, what are some of these instances?
Williams: I belief and I'm going from memories that um, one was he tried to falsified or fake urine test and lied about his drug use after he got out of treatment um, one is that, he told me that he got his girlfriend a whip for Christmas because they enjoy the use of a whip doing, doing their sexual activities um, there was some incident about a purse and, and I'm not sure if this was, I don't want to say made sense out of about, he was walking home from alternative school through the woods and found a purse and he didn't want to turn the purse in because he thought someone would think he stole it, so he take it home to his stepfather, and his stepfather called me and ask me what they should do with the purse, and his stepfather said Michael afraid to turn it in because I don't want the police, I, it was extremely confusing to me, I didn't know, I never made heads or tails out of it um,
Davis: Let me ask you this as far as the purse incident as I understand it you felt like there might be something there, that was not actuate but as far as knowing whether Michael told you anything that was true? You, you don't know where he did or didn't?
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Williams: Not certainly, I mean for all I know Michael could of got us girlfriend a whip for Christmas and (inaudible)
Davis: I'm talking now about the purse
Williams: No, I don't know, no I just found it odd that somebody would walk home from, from the alternative school to where he lives, number 1 through the woods, I don't know of any woods, but there could be some, they live pretty far out there, um no but as far as knowing that he was lying I certainly don't have any, you know proof that he's lying it just seems things with Michael tin to be a little bazaar
Davis: Okay, and has since this you've check with Clare and she hasn't had any difficulty with him telling the truth to her would that be pretty fair to say?
Williams: I don't believe Clare feels she's had a problem with Michael telling the truth, I know that um, the counselor from alternative school I don't remember her name called me and said that they had Michael in office all day and she called me at home one evening and said that, he seemed depressed and was, he had told them he was thinking about suicide and uh, there was a lot of conflict with that and this was something that I had never heard from Michael before, well we got off the phone and approximately 5 or 10 minutes later Michael called, and said, and, and in summary alternative school is going to call and tell you some things but, don't worry about it, it's not really true, but that's not his exact words, but he wanted me or I believe that he wanted me to uh, not put any faith in what they said so we went out to the alternative school got everybody involved Clare Nest and the other teacher and Michael and myself in the office and he came in and we confronted him, and said you know, she calls and tells me that your in here the day before saying that your depressed and, and you know your going to kill yourself and your really wanting to kill yourself and all this kind of stuff and then you call me and tell me alternative school going to call but don't listen to what they're going to say and he did everything short of denial he had called me, he, he didn't admit that he called me he did admit he called me but he said no that's not what I said, and I know it's what he said, because he said directly to me on the phone and it's that kind of confusing stuff with Michael all the time, that I never know rather it's truth or fiction I, I just don't know
Davis: Okay, as far as the, the him coming in and telling you he hadn't smoked dope when he tested positive on a drug screen uh, would it be accurate to say that happens frequently with people who have drug or alcohol abuse problems?
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Williams: I wouldn't really say it happens frequently it does happen, it's not usually
Davis: Okay
Williams: It's, what, what's usually about it when somebody got they usually say okay, you know I'm busted
Davis: Okay
Williams: And sitting there looking there at a positive U-A, Michael continued, and continued and continued to lie and change his story, through I period of about a hour
Davis: Okay
Williams: And the only thing I guess that, that, that, fixed that or made that any better was saying Michael I don't care your positive that's all that matters and than finally after (inaudible) he said okay I smoked one joint last night
Davis: Okay, and the deal, and the other deal was saying he got his girlfriend a whip for Christmas, when that wasn't true or
Williams: Again I, I, I tell you I don't know if it's true, hell he could of, maybe their, they did
Davis: Okay
Williams: I have never before dealt with a 16 year old fatal masochistic person but I suppose it could happen
Davis: Okay, any other incidents you can think of that you might have related to Mr. Ford?
Williams: I don't know if I told Mr. Ford or not, I was taking Michael home one day after we had met and he told me when we drove in front of his grandmother's house to be sure and go slow because she all time waits out there to shoot people who speed by her house, shoot at people and said he had done it several times before, shot at people as they passed by for driving to fast and
Davis: Okay, do you know his grandmother's name do you?
Williams: No, could again the lady may live out there and shoot at people that drove may quick, I don't know
Davis: Okay, anything else you can think of you might have told Mr. Ford or that's came up that you can think that might effect your opinion or instances of where you've question whether he was being truthful with you?
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WILLIAMS: NO SIR
DAVIS: OKAY, UM, BEFORE I CONCLUDE THIS STATEMENT LET ME ASK YOU DANNY UH, I KNOW YOU MAY NOT HAVE BEEN HAPPY TO ME HERE AND TO GET NOTIFIED TO COME HERE BUT UH, HAVE I DONE ANYTHING TO MISTREAT YOU OR COERCED OR TO UH
WILLIAMS: ABSOLUTELY NOT I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH BEING HERE TALKING WITH YOU AT ALL, MY, MY CONCERN WAS THAT I FEEL LIKE I WAS WRONG BY TELLING A KID SOMETHING WHO TURNED AROUND AND USED THAT IN WRONG WAY, UM, I HAD NO PROBLEM WITH COMING HERE AND TALKING TO YOU AT ALL, I THINK IT WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE IF YOU WOULD CALL ME AGAIN AND SAID HEY WILL YOU COME IN AND TALK, THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN NICE, BUT AS FAR AS COMING HERE TALKING, I HAVE NO PROBLEM WITH THAT WHAT SO EVER.
DAVIS: OKAY, YOU DO UNDERSTAND THAT AT LEAST THE LAST HALF OF THIS CONVERSATION WE HAVE RECORDED AND I WILL BE GLAD TO GIVE YOU A COPY OF THE TRANSCRIPT OF IT?
WILLIAMS: YES I UNDERSTAND THAT THIS IS RECORDED
DAVIS: OKAY, THIS WILL CONCLUDE THE STATEMENT OF THE AT APPROXIMATELY 9:55 UH, ON THE 18TH.
