THE COURT: Alright, let's uh - let's call the jury back in and finish with -
FOGLEMAN: Bill Durham.
THE COURT: He's back here -
FORD: Your Honor, did he find that list of ten witnesses - ten -
THE COURT: I don't know. Uh - before the jury gets in here, let's resolve that
question. Have you got the list of ten witnesses?
FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, they weren't able to find the list, I don't know if the
list exists or not.
THE COURT: Ok.
FOGLEMAN: And your Honor, we would submit whether the list exists or not is not
relevant to any issue before the jury.
THE COURT: I'm having a hard time with the relevancy on it as well Mr. Price.
What - how would ten possible suspects, if they did exist and if he did show a
photo lineup of ten suspects, how would that be relevant to the issue before the
PRICE: Judge, these were the two individuals working the Blue Beacon um - truck
wash and there's been testimony used by the State that my client was seen
walking near the Blue Beacon about 9:30, I'm certainly -
THE COURT: Well, the - I understand that these two witnesses -
FOGLEMAN: - Your Honor, they said they got off work at 4:00.
THE COURT: - That these two witnesses testified in that statement or at least in
the statement that they didn't see anybody.
PRICE: If - if -
DAVIDSON: - We're not asking what these witnesses said, your Honor, 'cause that
would be hearsay, we wouldn't do that. What we're doing is we're asking -
THE COURT: (LAUGHS) Go ahead, alright.
DAVIDSON: What we're asking for is to show his investigation to find out what
this officer did, to show how he handled this, and uh -
THE COURT: - Well, the police report and his investigation -
PRICE: I know Judge, it's never been in any of the 5,000 pages discovery that
THE COURT: Well, what, do you have it? Was it in there?
FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, I can't say whether it ex - whether it's there, or if it
THE COURT: Did you have the - go through the boxes of files with them?
PRICE: I've gone through everything they've sent me, Judge and -
THE COURT: Did you find it?
PRICE: No sir. That's my point and I'm entitled to bring that out to the jury.
THE COURT: No.
PRICE: Yes sir, that they were doing photographic lineups to witnesses and they
don't have reports, they don't know which photographs they showed any witnesses.
DAVIDSON: There's other possible witnesses that they have showed the ten people
to and we don't know who the ten people are and haven't gotten it through
discovery, this is the only way we can -
THE COURT: - Have any of those supposed witnesses ever identified anybody out of
that photographic lineup?
PRICE: Yes sir.
FOGLEMAN: Who? Now this is gonna be another confession?
THE COURT: That wasn't a confession, I did look at some of it.
PRICE: Judge, in the Aaron Hutcheson statement, Aaron Hutcheson is asked on two
occasions to look at photographs and identify somebody, the one that we have a
copy of says, "It's not one of the photographs you're showing me Detective
Ridge, it's the one I showed Officer Bray yesterday." We know of two -
those two other photographic lineups, they've never shown us a list of who the
ten photographs were.
DAVIDSON: They - they have a cutout, your Honor, with - they've shown us this
much, there's a cutout and it has ten squares in there or maybe more squares,
and they've got that in the evidence, the ten cutouts, but we never know which
pictures are in there.
FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, I don't know which pictures are in there either, but these
witnesses - the witness are questioned about the statement didn't identify
anybody, said that they had never seen anybody in the picture, said they had not
seen anybody in the woods and they got off work at 4:00.
PRICE: Judge, if they showed - if they showed this witness, this alleged
eyewitness, my client's picture and he doesn't pick out my client that
exculpatory and we're entitled to know who the ten pictures are.
FOGLEMAN: He's not an alleged eyewitness, he said he didn't see anybody.
PRICE: Judge, has the State read the 8 statements that Aaron Hutcheson has given
because several of them indicate he was an eyewitness. Others of them indicate
he just watched, some of them he was there, some of them he wasn't.
FOGLEMAN: And he identified your client.
PRICE: But I'm entitled to ask about the photographic lineup, Judge.
FOGLEMAN: Aaron Hutcheson is not on the stand.
THE COURT: Well -
PRICE: You had asked earlier about other photographic lineups, Judge. The fact
that they showed a witness ten possible suspects, we're entitled to know who the
ten photographs are. And it's not in this report, that's not in any of the
material that we've gotten. Period.
THE COURT: If he knows, I'm gonna let him say who they were.
FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, we still submit that it's irrelevant, nobody - he didn't
identify anybody, he said he saw nobody. Not that he didn't see anybody in the
lineup, that he didn't see anybody.
PRICE: I could certainly follow up that question, Judge.
THE COURT: With what?
PRICE: I could follow it, did he ask - talk to the individuals that were working
at the Blue Beacon past 4 p.m.
DAVIDSON: Your Honor, we're not even gonna ask the question, did he identify
anybody, that's not - that's hearsay.
FOGLEMAN: No, you don't want 'em to know that they didn't - couldn't - didn't
THE COURT: Well, if all you're wanting to do is bring out like similar to that
uh - medical record where you wanted to bring out almost 40 names, I didn't
count 'em so I'm not sure the exact number, but between 20 and 40. Of people
that had been, in a course of an investigation, identified as somebody that
might be a suspect, at least that they needed to question, if that's your sole
intent and purpose then it's not relevant.
PRICE: Judge, this was less than a week before my client was arrested, May 29th.
THE COURT: Alright.
PRICE: The report says they were each shown the ten photo spread of possible
suspects and I'm entitled to know who those ten photographs were.
FORD: Your Honor, we're also enti - on behalf of Mr. Baldwin, I'm interested to
know if they even - if they even included Jason in the ten. Based on the letter
that Mr. Gitchell wrote that he was blindfolded, they may not even have had
Jason in that list. That would be relevant too, your Honor.
THE COURT: I'm gonna rule based upon the statement that you're asking this
officer about the two witnesses that weren't able to identify anyone, that the
pictures they shown 'em are not relevant.
PRICE: Judge, how can you say the pictures aren't relevant if you don't know
what the pictures are? And that's my point, we need to know what the pictures
THE COURT: They didn't identify anybody, they're not relevant.
PRICE: If they've got ten suspects, they are relevant Judge. And we're entitled
to know who they are.
THE COURT: The fact that they have ten suspects?
PRICE: Yes sir.
PRICE: And if, Judge, the day after the murders, my client, they went out and
took his picture. So they've had his picture all this time.
FOGLEMAN: That is not true. That is not true.
PRICE: That's not true?
FOGLEMAN: That is not true.
DAVIDSON: Hadn't that already been testified to? That the guy -
FOGLEMAN: Not the day after the murders.
DAVIDSON: When was that?
PRICE: Two days after the murders.
FOGLEMAN: Uh, 6, 7, - probably the 8th or the 9th.
PRICE: That's not the statement of Steve Jones that the day after the bodies
were found, we went out and -
THE COURT: - If you need to question the witness to make a record, fine.
PRICE: Yes sir, I do.
FOGLEMAN: Detective Durham is out there.
THE COURT: No, don't bring the jury back in, just the witness - just Durham -
just Durham, he's right out there. No, not right now. Here he is.
THE COURT: Alright, let's proceed. Let the record reflect that this is a hearing
out of the presence of the jury.
PRICE: Alright Officer Durham, now that we've have the break, were you able to
go back through the records and find the ten photograph spread of possible
THE COURT: Not if it existed. Did you show ten pictures?
DURHAM: According to my notes, I did, I have no personal recollection of it.
THE COURT: Ok.
PRICE: Do you have any personal recollection if Damien Echols was one of the
DURHAM: I don't recall of my own personal recollection what photos were in
PRICE: Alright, well, is it your policy with the West Memphis Police Department,
when you give a photographic lineup to write down which photographs are shown to
a possible witness?
DURHAM: If I get identification. Of course these men said they had not seen
anyone - period, regardless of who they were in there. I showed the photographs
to see if they had seen anyone hanging around between the hours of 8 a.m. and 4
p.m., when they worked, and they had not.
PRICE: Alright, let me back up here - it's your testimony, if you get an
identification you write down who they picked out. So if they don't identify
anybody, you don't write a report?
DURHAM: I - I didn't say that Mr. Counselor, you trying to put words in my
PRICE: Well, no sir, I'm asking - I'm asking you if - you said, "When - If
I get an identification, I'll write a report." My question is, if you don't
get identification do you write a report? Do you write down, I showed 'em these
10 people and he didn't pick out anybody, that's what I'm asking for - where's
DURHAM: I can't locate it in these tons of files. Yes, in the course of a
criminal investigation, normally if I show a photo spread and a suspect in it is
identified, I'll list the entire thing. If the particular witness of a crime
does not identify anyone, I'll make a note of that. These men said they didn't
see anyone - period.
PRICE: Alright, but you - you did ask them - you did have ten photographs,
DURHAM: According to my notes, I did.
PRICE: Ok. And y'all have a - there's a board that y'all have that, with cutouts
and you put 5 pictures on top and 5 pictures on the bottom, correct?
DURHAM: Mr. Counselor, I don't recall whose photos I had.
DURHAM: I have no personal recollection of this, I don't know if I can answer
PRICE: Ok, my question is, do y'all have a board with ten holes in it to put
pictures in? Yes or no?
DURHAM: We do.
PRICE: You do. And underneath the - where the holes are, there's 1, 2, 3, 4, 5,
6, 7, 8, 9, 10. Correct?
DURHAM: We don't always use that.
DURHAM: I could have had ten photos in an envelope.
DURHAM: In a random order.
DURHAM: I have no personal recollection of it, Mr. Counselor.
PRICE: Alright. But each photograph has - there's a number assigned to each
DURHAM: On our photographs, the person's name is generally on there and we cover
it up with a piece of white cardboard.
PRICE: Ok. Alright. And since we're on the proffer, these individuals indicated
that they had never seen any of the subects in the photos, is that correct?
DURHAM: They said that in addition to, they said they had not seen anyone go
into the woods on that date.
PRICE: Ok. Now, they worked at the Blue Beacon between 8 a.m. and 4 p.m.,
DURHAM: 8 a.m. and 4 p.m., that's correct.
PRICE: Ok. Did you ever talk to anybody that worked at the Blue Beacon past 4
DURHAM: I do not recall.
PRICE: Ok now - it's your testimony that on this particular date, you don't
remember if you used the board or just spread the photographs out?
DURHAM: Mr. Counselor, I'll say it again, I don't recall this particular
PRICE: Ok. And you don't recall if Damien Echols was one of the pictures that
you showed these two gentlemen?
DURHAM: Mr. Counselor --
DURHAM: -- I do not personally recall this incident.
PRICE: Alright. After you di -- after you showed the photographic lineup to them
and they didn't identify anybody, where did you write down the notes?
FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, he just said for about four times that he didn't recall
the incident, so I don't know how he can correctly answer the question.
PRICE: I wanna know if he wrote notes down and lost 'em or if he just didn't
bother to write notes down, Judge. And I'm entitled to ask him that question.
DURHAM: For the fifth time, Mr. Counselor, I do not personally recall that
incident. I don't know how to answer your question.
PRICE: Ok. Do you recall after you showed the photographic lineup to the two
individuals, if you went back and told Inspector Gitchell what the results of
that photo lineup were?
DURHAM: With the exception of my notes right here, I have no personal
recollection of this incident.
PRICE: Ok. Officer Durham, excluding this particular photographic lineup, in
other photographic lineups, is it your common practice to write down the names
of the photographs that you show to a possible witness, even if they don't
identify anyone out of the group?
PRICE: Ok. Do you recall specifically if you conducted any other photographic
lineups in this particular case?
DURHAM: Mr. Counselor, I probably talked to at least 200 people if not more
personally, during the course of this investigation. I have no idea how many
people we talked to during this four weeks.
PRICE: Ok. My question is, out of those 200, how many of them did you show the
-- THE -- ten photo spread of possible suspects?
DURHAM: Mr. Counselor, I don't recall.
PRICE: Thank you. One more question, in the - the way that y'all classified the
evidence and the reports and material that was coming in, did y'all have a
separate file on photographic lineups?
DURHAM: I didn't set up that file, I can't answer that question.
PRICE: Alright, who did? Who set up the filing system in this case?
DURHAM: I believe Detective Ridge and Inspector Gitchell were in charge of the
PRICE: Alright. Anything else? That concludes my proffer, your Honor.
FORD: Your Honor, we have one question.
THE COURT: Alright.
FORD: To be included. Detective Durham, based on your questions, is it fair for
me to assume you can't recall whether Jason Baldwin was one of these ten people,
DURHAM: No sir, I do not.
FORD: So you're not able to even tell me now whether on May the 29th, the ten
suspects included Jason. You can't say yes or no to that question, can you? If
you don't know if he was in that ten, then you don't know whether he was even
listed as one of the top ten suspects, four days before his arrest, is that
DURHAM: I don't know that we had a top ten suspect list on that occasion, Mr.
Counselor and no, I don't recall who was in that lineup.
FORD: Thank you.
FOGLEMAN: Just to clarify, I want to show you this subject description form and
ask you what date it was when you talked to those people, just to clarify that.
Look at the subject description form.
DURHAM: This was on May the 26th, 1993.
FOGLEMAN: I don't have any --
PRICE: Judge, I do have something further. Officer Durham, on the -- on this
page here, what is -- what's the date here? I can't tell if that's a comma in
there or --
DURHAM: May the 26th, 1993.
PRICE: May the 26th. Alright. May the 26th. Ok. No further questions of this
witness, your Honor.
THE COURT: Alright, I'm gonna stick with my ruling, this is simply not relevant,
who the suspects were, if any. And apparently the witness can't recall who they
were in any event. And uh -- it could be misleading and confusing to the jury
and I'm not gonna allow it.
PRICE: If this witness shows a photographic lineup of ten pictures --
THE COURT: To two witnesses --
PRICE: -- to two witnesses.
THE COURT: -- that say "I don't know anybody."
PRICE: And he says he can't tell -- he has no idea who the photographs were --
THE COURT: What is the relevancy?
DAVIDSON: Judge, this is the same as the fingerprint testimony that was just on
there, they put someone on there and say, "Well, no fingerprints."
THE COURT: And if they hadn't done that, the first question you'd said to the
jury was "Where's the fingerprints?" I mean, that's the reason they
did that and you know it as well as I do, it's done all the time.
DAVIDSON: Same thing here, I think we're entitled to ask him what he did in his
investigation and what he didn't do.
THE COURT: Their investigation is not the subject matter of the trial. The
results of it may be.
FORD: And if you don't know -- if the results are relevant, they mean nothing
unless you know what led them to those results. It's like saying --
THE COURT: I'm not gonna let -- I'm not gonna let y'all drag in a bunch of names
as potential suspects and bat them around.
PRICE: Judge, I just want to know what number was assigned to Damien Echols'
THE COURT: Do you know?
PRICE: You know that, Mr. Durham?
DURHAM: Your Honor, I don't know that his photograph was in that group of ten.
THE COURT: Ok.
FORD: Are we entitled to ask him if our -- if Jason Baldwin was even in that ten
THE COURT: I don't think he knows whether he showed the - a list of ten
photographs from what I gather from his testimony.
DAVIDSON: Can't we ask him, according to his report, and let him say, "No,
I don't remember."
PRICE: Sir, and I take -
DAVIDSON: That's good enough for us, Judge.
FOGLEMAN: What is the relevance of the fact? Let's say that he was or was not,
either one, either way you wanna look at it. What possible relevance is there
that a person's picture was in a lineup?
PRICE: The relevance is Judge, they did a photographic lineup and they don't
have a record of who the photographs were.
THE COURT: So what.
PRICE: So -
THE COURT: If it were relevant and if there was identification, I'd allow it.
PRICE: Judge, if they're showing anybody my client's photograph, it's relevant.
THE COURT: Well, if they were showing a photograph of your client or either
defendant and didn't do anything with it and they had a witness that came up and
said it was #3, which was one of the defendants, then I'd throw that lineup up
PRICE: But if they showed -
THE COURT: It would be relevant, extremely relevant at that point because they
did nothing to preserve their records.
PRICE: If they showed the witness ten photographs and they didn't identify
anybody and my client's one of those ten photographs -
THE COURT: He didn't identify anybody, so what's the difference?
FORD: It's exculpatory, your Honor.
THE COURT: How can it be exculpatory if it doesn't identify anyone?
FORD: Because he's - because the suspect - if the suspect's in the lineup --
THE COURT: -- but the --
FORD: -- and they say "Did you see any of those people?" and they say
"No", that's exculpatory because as an eyewitness, I can't pick one of
those guys out as a poss - perpetrator.
THE COURT: The testimony was is that they didn't see anyone, big difference. I'm
not going to change my mind on it. Alright, call the jury back.
THE COURT: You don't have any other questions of this witness?
PRICE: No sir.
THE COURT: Alright, you may sta - do you have any more?
DAVIDSON: No, but he may.
FORD: Your Honor, is it your ruling that it's not relevant whether Jason was a
suspect five days before his arrest? That that's not relevant?
THE COURT: Well, it could be, but I'm not - I mean, it could be, yeah --
FORD: Well, you know, if he's not a suspect five days before his arrest, I think
that's relevant. That's all I wanted to ask this guy. That's all, that's what
I'm driving at, not what --
THE COURT: Did you want to ask him, does he know or he doesn't remember is the
FORD: Well, I realize that, but that's the reason I'd like for the Court to
inquire as to his whereabouts of those ten photographs.
THE COURT: I've already asked them and they say they don't know and don't know
if they ever existed.
FORD: Ok. Can I have one of those?
THE COURT: Yeah.
FORD: But you do think that is relevant, don't you? That whether he was a
suspect five days before?
THE COURT: Not necessarily. Not that fact taken alone. I mean, he could have
been developed as a suspect the day he was arrested.
FORD: I think that's what happened.
THE COURT: I do too.
(RETURN TO OPEN COURT)
THE COURT: Alright, you may stand down. Call your next witness.