(mumbling)
The Court: Alright gentlemen, I understand you had a preliminary matter you wanted to bring up?
Fogleman: Yes, Your Honor. The defense - I believe it was Mr. Ford, had a number of items blown up and I anticipate - now, I may be wrong in anticipation, but I anticipate that he may be trying to use some documents from the police department to cross examine Detective Ridge on and uh - I noticed, the one that I did catch a glimpse of had West Memphis Police Department stationary and we would ask with the court's permission to examine those prior to cross examination to make sure that he is - would be examining Detective Ridge about some of Detective Ridge's product and not something that somebody else - or something that would be inadmissible or irrelevant.
Ford: Your Honor, we don't anticipate using any of those - what is mentioned, with respect to uh - Detective Ridge to my knowledge.
The Court: Well, I don't want you to cross examine anybody from a written document that's not their own product.
Ford: There won't be none, I won't do that.
The Court: It would be hearsay and I would sustain an objection to it so don't attempt to do it. So -
Ford: That's - that'd be - that's quite fine.
The Court: Ok.
Ford: He doesn't know what it is and I -
The Court: Well, I sure don't and I'm telling ya - you can't cross examine someone by a document prepared by someone else. Unless they say they're a party to it or a part in partial of it or involved in it in some way. I think you know that.
Ford: Yes sir.
The Court: Alright, anything else?
Fogleman: No sir.
Price: Yes sir, if we could approach for a minute?
The Court: Well, you can just say it from there, the jury's not in here.
Price: Alright. That's fine, Judge. Judge, a few moments ago before you came in the courtroom, uh - Phillip Wells, who's actually - I guess, is the court's liaison, was giving statements to the press, anticipated on Mr. Misskelley's testimony or not. I'd like to know the substance of those conversations and I'd like to know the status of those negotiations.
The Court: Well, I'll tell ya what Mr. Wells told me in, uh - I guess Mr. Wells - when I asked him to perform that service that you're aware of earlier, that he's just kind of been stuck with it is what it amounts to. Uh - he informed me that he met with uh - Greg Crow, one of the attorneys for Mr. Misskelley - I don't recall if Dan Stidham was there, I don't believe he was according to what Phillip Wells told me. And that they discussed with him the possibility of his testimony and that nothing has been resolved at this time with regard to his potential testimony. I understand that they are talking. That's the best that I can tell ya.
Ford: Your Honor, in light of the fact that Mr. Wells stands in a peculiar position being the court's liaison, which I believe is the term he is using to the press - Your Honor, we feel that for him to be making remarks to the press about what's going on with respect to witnesses is as if you yourself were making those remarks, Your Honor. And therefore, are inpermissible remarks of the court -
The Court: (talking over) I'll tell Mr. Wells to refrain from making any comment to the press in the future. I agree with you.
Ford: Your Honor, we would also ask that the remark that he made this morning - he basically stood at the rail and held a press conference, and we would ask that there be an order issued not to have those items printed because they are -
The Court: Well, I can't do that.
Ford: Ok. Your Honor, we just make the record - we feel that those remarks, if printed or aired, are comments by the court on the evidence in this case.
The Court: Uh - (laughter)
Price: Well Judge -
The Court: I don't go that far, Mr. Ford, at all. In fact, I wasn't aware that Mr. Wells had made a press conference. Now, I'll certainly tell him that he's not to do that in the future. And whether or not he's the liaison with the court, those are probably inappropriate choice of words. He was asked by the court - as you well know - to perform a specific function, uh - and - and - uh - I can understand how he's become involved in it at this point because what he amounts to - is - is -
Ford: Is a liaison.
The Court: Well, he's not a liaison with the court. He's a - I guess what the better word would be is a - a - a second counsel for uh - Mr. Misskelley, by direction of the court.
Ford: Well Your Honor, if he is a counsel for Misskelley, then we contend that his remarks are prohibited by the ethical on restrictions of remarks to the press because he is making remarks about evidence in a case that could -
The Court: Well now, what has he made - what remarks has he made with regard to evidence in the case?
Ford: Just that he's -
The Court: He's speculated on whether or not the man will testify is what I understand. And I just announced what he told me and I assume it's the same thing he told them and that's quite a bit different from commenting on testimony. So, is there anything else? Alright, call the jury in. But I will tell him not to make anymore comments to the newspapers or to the uh - press.
(mumbling)
The Court: It's alot brighter in here, isn't it?
(pause)
The Court: In fact, I'll get one of the bailiffs to tell him not to -
(pause)
Fogleman: Your Honor, would the court inquire if there are any witnesses in the courtroom that weren't in here yesterday and if there are - I don't know if there are -
The Court: Is there anyone in the courtroom that knows themselves to be a witness in this case or anyone that has been subpoenaed by the state or the defendants in the case as a witness?
(pause)
The Court: Ok Bryn, you can come up here and retake the stand. Anyone else? Alright, you - you may proceed.
(female mumbling)
The Court: Yeah, make sure that you speak into the PA system there because some of the jurors indicated that they were having a little bit of trouble hearing the witnesses. Cap that silver one there and see if you can move it towards you a little bit.
Fogleman: Which, the black one?
The Court: Is that speaker there working? Try it.
(mumbling)
The Court: Alright.
Fogleman: Detective Ridge, alright - for the record, you're the same Detective Ridge who testified yesterday at the conclusion of the court proceedings?
Ridge: Yes sir, I am.
Fogleman: Detective Ridge, if you would step down and direct your attention to state's exhibit 13. Would you take the corner and just using state's exhibit 13, if you would describe um - for the jury um - where the um - the items that you found were in relation to the diagram.
Ridge: Ok. McAuley driving west - here is the trail at the end, which is a dead end street. It goes to the pipe across Ten Mile Bayou. Here's the trail that goes to the back of Blue Beacon. Uh - there's a trail that comes off of here that goes across Turtle Hill and across this little uh - gully type area, and this is the area that is uh - the crimescene and the bodies were found at the bottom of this ditch.
Fogleman: Alright. Now, in reference to the pipe uh - that you've indicated - I want to direct your attention to this inset over here, uh - is that a uh - a cross section or detail of the pipe and the highbeams beside the pipe?
Ridge: Yes sir, it is.
Fogleman: And does that fairly portray the manner in which uh - the pipe and the highbeams appear?
Ridge: Yes sir, it does.
Fogleman: Now, if you could describe uh - what these reference points are on the diagram and where Michael Moore was found in relation to those reference points.
Ridge: Ok. Here, this white area, is where this bank was - had the scuff marks, uh - absence of leaves, uh - the slicked over cleared area. That was above the body of Michael Moore. Michael Moore was found here in the bottom of this creek. Uh - the high bank level is the level of ground out here that's going through this area. That point of the crimescene high bank average was 215 feet above the degree sea level or average sea level. The shelf level was approximately 210 feet above average sea level, and that is 5 feet below the surrounding area. The flow line or - this ditch is actually a ditch within a ditch, in other words, there are - a long sloping bank and then at the bottom of that sloping bank is an area that holds water that the water flows in case there is a very heavy rain and then there will be another bank that goes up on the other side. This smaller area in the center, between these two lines in the center is that lower ditch. And the low bank level is 209 feet to 210 on the average above sea level. Uh - the flow line, the very bottom of that ditch is 207 and 1/2 feet above sea level. The difference being between 215 and 207 is like 7 and 1/2 feet straight down from the top bank all the way to the bottom of the ditch. Ok, uh -
Fogleman: Alright. Now on here is - you've got a point here, a point here, and a point there - what are those points?
Ridge: Ok. On this flat level um - the shelf that had the scuff marks, the slicked off area, there is a tree at the north side of that area and uh - that tree was used as a reference point for measuring where specific items of the bodies were located at the crimescene. Uh - directly across the creek on the upper bank there is another tree and that tree was also used as a reference point. Below the bottom - body of, um - the victim, Michael Moore, uh - close to the creek there is a group of three trees and those trees are reference point also for those measurements and just below those three trees is where the body of Stevie Branch and Christopher Byers were located.
Fogleman: Detective Ridge, if you would take this pen and first uh - if you would, draw a stick figure uh - of where Michael Moore was discovered.
Ridge: Michael Moore was discovered in this area right here. Head to the north, he was laying on his left side, the body coming down at an angle, his knees forming a square, then his arms tied to his knees, he was facing east or toward Memphis from this area. The body of Stevie Branch was - the head was downstream. He had the body, the shoulders, the arms toward the feet. He had the torso and then the other two legs and again those were tied in the same manner in which he was found. The body of Christopher Byers was in line after that and then the head downstream toward the south. The arms tied to the feet. Again, downstream in that manner.
Fogleman: Alright now - and you may have testified to this, I may have just missed it - uh - you indicated that Michael Moore was on his left side. How was uh - Stevie Branch?
Ridge: Facedown, tied in the same manner.
Fogleman: And Chris Byers?
Ridge: Facedown.
Fogleman: Alright. Ok. You can retake the stand.
(pause)
Fogleman: Now, I believe when you had - when you were testifying yesterday, you had identified - in some photographs, some clothing that was found. Is that right?
Ridge: Yes sir. Some photographs of some clothing as it was being removed from the creek.
Fogleman: I want to show you what I've marked for identification purposes as state's exhibit 47A and 47B and ask if you can identify those?
Ridge: Yes sir, I can.
Fogleman: Ok. And how can you identify those?
Ridge: They were packaged by me and have my initials and the date.
Fogleman: And what are they?
Ridge: A black tennis shoe with purple interior and a black tennis shoe with purple interior.
Fogleman: Alright. And where were those tennis shoes recovered?
Ridge: In the ditch.
Fogleman: Your Honor, we would offer exhibits 47A and 47B.
The Court: Any objection?
Price: No objection.
Ford: Your Honor, we would like to see what's inside the bag before they introduce it into evidence.
The Court: Alright.
(opening bag)
Ridge: A black, boy's tennis shoe with purple interior. That is exhibit 47B. Exhibit 47A is also a black tennis shoe with purple interior.
(replacing exhibits into bags)
(mumbling)
The Court: You want to examine them?
Ford: I just need to see - I just want to see the -
(bag still crinkling)
Fogleman: Your Honor, again, we offer state's exhibits 47A and 47B.
Ford: May we look at 'em?
The Court: Again?
Fogleman: Your Honor, I would point out to the court that they've had an opportunity to look at 'em previously. Uh - several times.
(bag crinkling)
(pause)
Ford: Your Honor, may I voir dire the witness on these items?
(pause)
Ford: Detective Ridge, did you bag these at the scene?
Ridge: No sir, they had to be dried before they were sent to the crime lab.
Ford: They had to be what?
Ridge: Dried.
Ford: Ok. Where were - how were they - where were they taken when you first got them? They were put -
Ridge: They were placed in the sacks and they were taken to my office in those sacks in order - where they could be air dried.
Ford: Ok. So you put them directly in this sack?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: And then you took 'em and dried them?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: And then resacked them?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: No objection.
Fogleman: Now, would you put 'em back in the sacks, please?
Ford: Are you introducing the sacks? Or are you introducing part of the chain -
Fogleman: Yes.
Ford: Ok.
(mumbling)
(bag crinkling)
Fogleman: We're offering again.
The Court: Any objection?
Ford: No, Your Honor.
Price: No objection.
The Court: Alright, they may be received without objection. You may exhibit to the jury if you care to.
Fogleman: Now Detective Ridge, I want to show you what's marked for identification purposes as state's exhibits 51A and 51B, ask if you can identify those?
Ridge: Yes sir, I can.
Fogleman: And how can you identify those?
Ridge: They're bagged by me, have my initials and date on 'em.
Fogleman: And where were those items recovered?
Ridge: In the water near the body.
Fogleman: And in this particular case, did you put 'em in the bag yourself?
Ridge: Yes sir, I did.
Fogleman: Alright. And after you put 'em in the bag, what did you do with 'em?
Ridge: I took 'em to my office where they were dried and prepared to send to the crimelab.
Fogleman: Did you then replace them in the bag?
Ridge: Yes sir, I did.
Fogleman: Ok. And uh - did you - how were they taken to the crimelab by the way - these and the other items?
Ridge: They were hand carried to the crimelab by Glen Masengale, the officer for the West Memphis Police Department.
Fogleman: And would you now open the sack and -
(bag crinkling)
Ridge: A black tennis shoe. Exhibit 51B is a black tennis shoe. Exhibit 51A is a black tennis shoe and 1 sock.
Fogleman: Would you show that to the jury?
Ridge: A black tennis shoe with 1 sock.
Fogleman: Your Honor, we would offer exhibits 51A and 51B.
The Court: Any objections?
Ford: May I voir dire on these, Your Honor?
The Court: Alright.
Ford: Detective Ridge, you took the shoes and the sock - is that correct?
Ridge: Yes.
Ford: And did you take them and place them directly from where you picked them up - well, first of all, where did you find those?
Ridge: In the water.
Ford: In the water. Did you take them out of the water and place them directly in those respective sacks?
Ridge: Yes sir, I did.
Ford: And they remained in those sacks until you took them back where?
Ridge: To my office.
Ford: Took them out of the sacks?
Ridge: Yes sir - no sir, didn't take 'em out of the sacks. What they had to be was left open in order that the items inside could dry.
Ford: Didn't take any of those out of the sacks?
Ridge: They weren't taken out of the sacks until checking individually to make sure that those items were dry.
Ford: And then you closed 'em?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: They never -
(pause)
(mumbling)
Ford: Are these items in both of these sacks in the same condition now as when you retrieved them?
Ridge: Except that they're dry, yes sir.
Ford: No objection, Your Honor.
Price: No objection.
The Court: Alright, it may be received without objection. You may exhibit to the jury.
Fogleman: Your Honor, with the court's permission - since this is gonna take awhile and so the jury will be able to observe all throughout the testimony, we would like to wait to exhibit these items.
The Court: That'll be fine.
Fogleman: Except from the witness stand.
(pause)
Fogleman: Detective Ridge, I want to hand you state's exhibit 48 -
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: Ask if you can identify that.
Ridge: Yes, I can.
Fogleman: How can you identify it?
Ridge: By being labeled by me with my initials and date.
Fogleman: And uh - where did you recover that item?
Ridge: In the water.
Fogleman: Alright. And what is it?
Ridge: It's a pair of blue jeans and a blue wallet.
Fogleman: Alright. Would you open the sack?
(bag crinkling)
(mumbling)
Fogleman: Exhibit to the jury.
Ridge: Blue jeans and the blue wallet.
Fogleman: Ok. Would you place that back in the sack?
(bag crinkling)
Ford: May I voir dire on this particular bag he's opened, Your Honor?
The Court: I'm sorry?
Ford: May I voir dire on this particular bag he's offering?
Fogleman: Your Honor, I hadn't offered it yet.
The Court: Let him offer the next bag and then you can do it, ok.
Fogleman: Your Honor, what I would like to do to try to speed this up a little bit, is I'd like to have him identify each item and collectively offer them. If they want to voir dire on each of those items it would be fine, but I don't - I want to have him identify -
Ford: (talking over) It would go quicker, Judge -
Fogleman: - I want to try to speed this up a little bit.
Ford: It would go quicker to have him go one by one rather than having him go back through all that stuff again. Take 'em back out and reshow up back again, it would be much quicker to do it this way.
Fogleman: Your Honor, I want to do it however the court think it would be most expeditious.
Ford: That's correct.
The Court: Alright. Let's open 'em up one at a time and then go through and review that way and then you can tender 'em. Alright. You want to look at this?
Fogleman: While he's looking at that, Detective Ridge, is - how did you handle that particular item?
Ridge: Removed from the water and placed in that sack, taken to my office, dried, and sent to the crimelab.
Fogleman: Alright.
(bag crinkling)
(pause)
Ford: Detective, same thing again - you took them out of the water?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: Placed them in that bag?
Ridge: Yes sir, I did.
Ford: Ok. And you opened them up back at your office?
Ridge: In order that they dry, yes sir.
Ford: And dry without removing from the bag - is that correct?
Ridge: (talking over) Yes.
Ford: The white tissue that's in the uh - in the bag -
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: When - were they placed on the tissue first - where - how - what's the procedure that you had with the white tissue?
Ridge: That is not my procedure. As the items were at the crimelab, they had placed them on those white papers in order to save any trace evidence that may be there. It was returned with that item.
Ford: You placed them wet in that sack?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: Took it to your office, opened it up and air dried, is that correct?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: The sacks - where did you get the sacks? Where did they come from?
Ridge: From -
Fogleman: It says on there 'Gene Stimpson', my God.
Ford: Judge, I can ask him where he got the sacks. I don't - it says 'Gene Stimpson' -
The Court: Alright, ask him.
Ford: Alright. Where did you get the sacks?
Ridge: I asked an officer to go get those sacks and we started -
Ford: Were the sacks - what condition were the sacks in when you got them?
Ridge: Clean. New sacks.
Ford: Ok. No objection, Your Honor.
Price: No objection.
The Court: Alright. It may be received, sack and all.
Fogleman: Hand you what's marked for identification purposes as state's exhibits 46A and 46B and ask if you can identify those?
Ridge: Yes sir, I can.
Fogleman: Alright, and how can you identify those?
Ridge: They're marked by me, my initials, and date.
Fogleman: And uh - where did you recover those items?
Ridge: In the water.
Fogleman: Talking about at the crimescene?
Ridge: Yes sir, at the crimescene.
Fogleman: And uh - what are they?
Ridge: They're white tennis shoes - one white tennis shoe and one white tennis shoe.
Fogleman: Alright. And would you open the sacks.
(bag crinkling)
Ridge: For exhibit 46B, is a white tennis shoe. Exhibit 46A is a white tennis shoe.
Fogleman: And did you handle those tennis shoes in the same manner as the other items as far as after you removed them and how you dried them?
Ridge: Yes sir, I did.
Fogleman: And used the same sack?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: We would offer -
(mumbling)
(bag crinkling)
Ford: Detective Ridge, as to these two that's been offered for identification, uh - you picked them directly out of the water?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: Were the shoes dripping water when you took them out of the water?
Ridge: Yes sir, they were.
Ford: You placed them directly, dripping water, into those sacks - is that correct? Have you looked in those sacks? Uh - those are the same sacks that you put 'em directly into - is that correct?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: Ok. Are there any water - do they have any water stains inside of these two sacks?
Ridge: I don't know if there is or not.
(bag crinkling)
Ridge: Not that I can see, but the texture of the sacks are as though they have been wet.
Ford: You don't see any water stains though, do you?
Ridge: I don't see any, no sir.
Ford: No objection, Your Honor.
The Court: Without objection, they may be received.
Ford: Thank you, Your Honor.
Fogleman: Hand you sta - hand you what's been marked for identification purposes as state's exhibit 52, ask if you can identify those items.
Ridge: Yes sir, I can.
Fogleman: How can you identify those items?
Ridge: Has my markings on it, my initials and the date.
Fogleman: Alright. And where did you recover that item?
Ridge: In the water there at the crimescene.
Fogleman: Alright. On all - on these clothing items, were they just floating in the water or how were they?
Ridge: Some of 'em were floating, uh - pants were stuck down in the mud at the bottom of the creek, uh - there was a sirt that was wrapped around a stick, it was jobbed into the mud with the stick still there.
Fogleman: What is this particular item that was recovered?
Ridge: Uh - a pair of blue jeans.
Fogleman: Would you open the sack?
(bag crinkling)
Ridge: A pair of blue jeans. And this package is marked as the items that came out of the pocket of the blue jeans.
Fogleman: Alright. Did you actually take anything out of the pants?
Ridge: No sir, I did not.
Fogleman: Alright. Uh - did that come from the crimelab?
Ridge: Yes, it did.
Fogleman: And after you recovered those jeans, what did you do with 'em?
Ridge: I placed them in this sack, took them to the office, handled as the other evidence.
Fogleman: On the uh - pants, um - do you recall uh - how the pants were when they were recovered?
Ridge: To the best of my memory, two of those pair of pants were inside out, buttoned, and zipped. One pair was right side out, I believe, buttoned and zipped.
Fogleman: We would offer state's exhibit um - 52.
Ford: Are these two - one exhibit?
Fogleman: Yeah.
(mumbling)
(bag crinkling)
The Court: Move over Robin, I can't see.
Ford: Detective Ridge, the pants that are in this sack, did you take 'em directly out of the water and place in that sack?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: And when you pulled 'em out of the water were they dripping water?
Ridge: Yes sir, they were.
Ford: I believe you testified that they were turned inside out - is that correct?
Ridge: Two of the pair of pants were inside out.
Ford: How about these?
Ridge: I'm not certain which pairs.
Ford: Ok. Did you place them in there the way you took them out of the water?
Ridge: Yes sir, I did.
Ford: Ok. No objection, Your Honor.
The Court: Was that the way they were delivered to the lab?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: Your Honor, again, we would offer state's exhibit 52.
Price: No objection.
The Court: Alright, it may be received without objection.
Fogleman: Show you state's exhibit 8, ask if you can identify that item?
Ridge: Yes sir, I can.
Fogleman: And how can you identify it?
Ridge: By my markings on the sack, my initials, and the date.
Fogleman: Ok. And where did you recover that item?
Ridge: In the water.
Fogleman: Alright. And in - what item is that?
Ridge: This is a blue and yellow cub scout cap.
Fogleman: Is that the same cub scout cap that can be seen in some of the photographs floating in the water?
Ridge: Yes sir, it is.
Fogleman: And after retrieving that from the water, what did you do with it?
Ridge: Placed it in this sack, treated it as the other evidence was treated.
Fogleman: Allowed it to air dry?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: And sealed the sack back?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: Ok. Your Honor, we would offer state's exhibit 8. Oh, I forgot, would you remove it from the sack?
(bag crinkling)
Ridge: Cub scout cap.
(mumbling)
Ford: Detective Ridge, same procedure - you picked the cap out of the water, is that correct?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: Was the cap dripping when you pulled it out of the water?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: And you placed it directly into the sack?
Ridge: Yes sir, I did.
Ford: Was someone holding these sacks for you or - how did that procedure take place?
Ridge: Yes, Sargeant Allen was there with me - holding the sacks as they were being placed in.
Ford: He would hold the sacks, you would pull it out of the water dripping and place it into the sack - is that -
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: - the way you did it on each one of these?
Ridge: Uh - to the best of my memory, yes sir. If the sack wasn't sitting on the ground then it was him holding it up.
Ford: There were times that the sacks - any of this stuff that we've - sometimes the sack was laying on the ground?
Ridge: Sometimes the bottom of it would be on the ground and he would be holding it open, yes sir.
Ford: Actually touching the ground?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: Ok. This particular one, do you recall?
Ridge: No sir, I don't recall which item it would have been exactly.
Ford: Ok. No objection.
Davidson: No objection, Your Honor.
The Court: Alright, it may be received without objection.
Fogleman: Thank you, Your Honor. Let me show you what's marked for identification purposes as state's exhibit 50, ask if you can identify that.
Ridge: Yes, I can.
Fogleman: How can you identify it?
Ridge: My markings on the sack, my initials, and the date.
Fogleman: And where did you recover that item?
Ridge: In the water.
Fogleman: Would you open the bag?
(bag crinkling)
Fogleman: And what is it, by the way?
Ridge: A pair of child's underwear.
Fogleman: Did you handle that item in the same manner that you handled all the other item?
Ridge: Yes sir, I did.
Fogleman: And after removing it from the water, did you place it in that bag?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: Your Honor, we would offer state's exhibit 50.
(pause)
Ford: Detective, same procedure - you pulled this item out of the water?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: Were they dripping when you took it out of the water?
Ridge: (sigh) I think so - this may have been the item that was hanging up on a limb right there at the edge of the water.
(mumbling)
Ford: Was it dripping or was it not dripping?
Ridge: I'm not exactly certain, but it was wet.
Ford: And you placed it in the sack?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: Took it to your office?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: Let it air out?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: How long did uh - did you submit all these items at one time -
Ridge: Yes sir, I did.
Ford: - to the crimelab?
Ridge: These items, yes.
Ford: How long did they sit in your office before you sent those off?
Ridge: Overnight.
Ford: Did you notice any water dripping out of the bottom of that sack when you placed it in there?
Ridge: Dripping out of the sack?
Ford: Yes, out of the bottom.
Ridge: No sir.
Ford: Did you notice any water dripping out of the bottom of any of these sacks when you would place an item in there?
Ridge: (sigh) I don't remember. Seems as though there were wet places in the carpet where they were laying.
Ford: I'm talking at the - I'm talking out at the -
Ridge: That would have come through the bottom of the sack -
Ford: (talking over) Did you see water coming out of it?
Ridge: - that's what you're saying.
Ford: I'm asking, did you see that?
Ridge: No sir.
Ford: You didn't - you never saw that?
Ridge: I'm telling you that the carpet was wet where the sacks were sitting - some of the sacks, not all of 'em.
Ford: I'm talking out in Robin Hood woods.
Ridge: Oh, no sir, I didn't - not at Robin Hood woods.
Ford: You didn't see any -
Ridge: (talking over) I would have noticed it, no sir.
Ford: You didn't notice that?
Ridge: No sir.
Ford: No objection, Your Honor.
Davidson: No objection, Your Honor.
The Court: It may be received without objection.
Fogleman: I'm gonna hand you what's been marked for identification purposes as state's exhibit number 43 and ask if you can identify that item?
Ridge: Yes sir, I can.
Fogleman: And how can you identify it?
Ridge: Has my markings on the sack and my initials and date.
Fogleman: And where did you recover that item?
Ridge: In the water at the crimescene.
Fogleman: And how was - after you recovered it, what did you do with it?
Ridge: Placed it in this sack, took it to my office where it was dried, prepared it for sending to the crimelab.
Fogleman: And would you open the sack?
(bag crinkling)
Ridge: A blue shirt.
Fogleman: Is that the cub scout shirt?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: Could you hold it up? All I saw was a blue blob.
(pause)
Fogleman: And is that the same cub scout shirt you pulled out of the water and placed in that sack?
Ridge: Yes sir, it is.
Fogleman: Your Honor, we would offer state's exhibit -
(bag crinkling)
(mumbling)
(pause)
Ford: Detective Ridge, this was taken out of the water, is that correct?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: And you pulled it out and you placed it directly uh - into that sack, is that correct?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: The white paper that it was enclosed in, that was not present when you placed it directly into the sack -
Ridge: (talking over) No sir.
Ford: - when it was recovered, is that right?
Ridge: No sir, it was not present.
Ford: And was this item dripping wet when you pulled it out?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: Pulled out of the water, placed directly into the sack?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: Notice any water dripping out of that sack when you placed it directly in there?
Ridge: Not that I can remember.
Ford: Ok. No objection.
Davidson: No objection, Your Honor.
The Court: Alright, it may be received without objection.
Fogleman: Show you what's marked for identification purposes as state's exhibit number 44 and ask if you can identify that item?
Ridge: Yes sir, I can.
Fogleman: And how can you identify it?
Ridge: Has my markings on the sack, being a white polka dot shirt, initials and date.
Fogleman: And where did you recover that item?
Ridge: In the water at the crimescene.
Fogleman: And after recovering that item from the crimescene, what did you do with it?
Ridge: Placed it in this sack, took it to the office where it was dried and sent to the crimelab.
Fogleman: Would you open the sack?
(bag crinkling)
Ridge: White shirt. Polka dot pattern is on the inside as it's turned.
Fogleman: Was that item wet when you got it out of the water?
Ridge: Yes sir, it was.
Fogleman: And was it wet when you put it in the sack?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: When you - what did you do with it after it was put in the sack?
Ridge: Took it to the office where it was dried and prepared for sending to the crimelab.
Fogleman: Where in the office are these items dried?
Ridge: In the floor.
Fogleman: I mean, what room?
Ridge: Inspector Gitchell's office.
Fogleman: Your Honor, we would offer state's exhibit 44.
Ford: Detective, is the sack opened - you open it up so some air could come down in?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: Same procedure on this as all the others?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Ford: No objection.
Price: No objection.
The Court: Alright, it may be received without objection.
Fogleman: Hand you what's been marked for identification purposes as state's exhibit 49, ask if you can identify it?
Ridge: Yes sir, I can.
Fogleman: And how can you identify it?
Ridge: It has my markings on the sack saying it's a striped shirt, my initials, and the date.
Fogleman: And where did you recover that item?
Ridge: In the water at the crimescene.
Fogleman: And after recovering that item, what did you do with it?
Ridge: Placed it in this sack, transported it to the office where it was dried and prepared for sending to the crimelab.
Fogleman: And did you handle it in the same manner as you handled all the other items?
Ridge: Yes sir, I did.
Fogleman: Would you open the sack?
(bag crinkling)
Ridge: Striped t-shirt, stripes on the inside.
Fogleman: It's inside out?
Ridge: Yes sir, it's inside out at this time.
Fogleman: Your Honor, we would offer state's exhibit uh - 40 uh -
The Court: 9
Fogleman: 49.
Ford: No objection, Your Honor.
Price: No objection.
The Court: Alright, it may be received without objection.
The Court: (whispering) Did we start on time this morning?
Fogleman: Show you state's exhibit 45 - for identification purposes, ask if you can identify this?
Ridge: Yes sir, I can.
Fogleman: And how can you identify it?
Ridge: It has my markings on the sack saying it's a pair of blue pants, my initials, and date.
Fogleman: Where did you recover that item?
Ridge: In the water at the crimescene.
Fogleman: Would you remove it from the sack?
(bag crinkling)
Ridge: A pair of blue pants.
Fogleman: Your Honor, we would offer state's exhibit 45.
Ford: No objection, Your Honor.
Price: No objection.
The Court: Alright, it may be received without objection.
Fogleman: Detective Ridge, I believe you had indicated earlier uh - that um - something about a stick in the water - stuck in the water?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: Tell me about that again.
Ridge: There was a stick in the water that had a shirt around the end of it, and that shirt was jobbed down into the mud with the stick.
Fogleman: I want to show you what I've got marked for identification purposes as state's exhibit 55 and ask if you can identify that?
Ridge: Yes sir, I can.
Fogleman: And how can you identify it?
Ridge: The sack here has my markings, the date, and my initials.
Fogleman: And did you recover - where did you recover that item?
Ridge: From the water.
Fogleman: And -
(bag crinkling)
Fogleman: Is that uh - stick portrayed in any of the pictures?
Ridge: Yes sir, it is.
Fogleman: Alright, and so the jury can identify which one it is, is there some way that you can describe for 'em?
Ridge: It's the stick that the shirt was wrapped around the end of and stuck in the mud.
Fogleman: Your Honor, we would offer state's exhibit uh - 55.
The Court: Alright, it may be received.
Price: Judge -
Davidson: We would like to see -
Ford: (talking over) We would like to see it first.
The Court: Alright.
(mumbling)
Price: Judge, at this time we'd object to this stick. This stick is E number E-139 which was not recovered by Detective Ridge at the crimescene - this was a stick that Mr. Ridge found at the crimescene 2 months after the murders on July 1, 1993 and we object to this stick as being of relevance for any purpose.
Fogleman: Your Honor, I'd be glad for them to voir dire him as a witness on it.
The Court: Alright.
(mumbling)
Price: Detective Ridge, what is the E number on this stick?
Ridge: 139.
Price: Ok. And that is the number - the E, that represents the - you call - the evidence - when you give a particular piece of evidence - y'all assign certain numbers to it?
Ridge: That's the number I assigned to that stick, yes sir.
Price: Ok. Well, on - isn't it true that on July the 1st 1993, you went back to the crimescene and found E-139 - that stick?
Ridge: Yes sir, that's correct.
Price: Ok. So that stick was not the stick that was at the crimescene?
Ridge: Yes sir, it is the stick that was at the crimescene.
Price: Alright, so - I guess I'm confused. At the time, you did not take that stick into evidence - at the time that y'all recovered the bodies?
Ridge: No sir. I didn't take this stick into evidence until the statement of Jessie Misskelley in which he said a stick -
Price: Your Honor! Move for a mistrial, Your Honor!
(pause)
Price: Objection, Your Honor.
The Court: What is your objection?
Davidson: Your Honor -
Price: (talking over) Can we approach?
The Court: Yes.
Davidson: May the jury go out, Your Honor?
The Court: Alright ladies and gentlemen, it's about time for a recess anyway. If you would step back into the jury room til we call ya back.
The Court: Alright, let the record reflect that this is a hearing out of the presence of the jury. Alright gentlemen.
Price: Judge, at this time, I move for a mistrial.
Davidson: Judge, I don't know if this could be heard back there, these microphones was so loud, I -
Ford: Can we turn the PA off?
The Court: No, I'm not gonna turn the PA off.
Price: Well, if Officer Hicks could go back there to see if they could -
The Court: Go back there and have 'em go to the jury room or the last room.
Fogleman: (talking over) See if they closed door to the jury room.
(pause)
Davidson: Did he close the door?
Fogleman: Yes.
The Court: Alright.
Price: Judge, at this time, I would make a motion for a mistrial.
The Court: What is the basis of a mistrial?
Price: The basis is the question that I asked the officer did not call for him blurting out the fact that Jessie Misskelley gave a confession. The whole purpose for our trial being severed from Mr. Misskelley's trial in the first place was the confession that Jessie Misskelley gave. That's the entire reason for the severence. That uh - that's certainly not anything -
The Court: I believe your question was - if I recall it correctly - was, you were questioning him about the E number on exhibit uh - tendered exhibit 55 and you uh -
Davidson: Barbara should read the question and the response.
The Court: - you uh - said, "I'm confused on that, you mean you didn't take the stick on - on the day that you were first there" - I'm paraphrasing. And then you said, "Did you go back later?" and he said "Yes sir, I went back after Jessie Misskelley's statement". Now that's the best I recall.
Price: Judge, the fact that him - this officer could have said he went back without any reference to Jessie Misskelley's statement.
The Court: Well, I can't - I can't pole that his statement is not responsive to the question because you asked him did he go back and he said yes. He shouldn't have volunteered that, but I certainly don't see any basis for a mistrial.
Price: Your Honor, the whole purpose for our case being severed from Jessie Misskelley's trial is Jessie's confession.
The Court: (talking over) The statement is not gonna - the statement -
Price: This officer blurted out, Jessie Misskelley gave a confession. That's the whole purpose for the severence in the first place.
Fogleman: (mumbling)
The Court: What he said was is that after Misskelley's statement, I went back.
Fogleman: Can I respond, Your Honor?
The Court: Yes sir.
Fogleman: Your Honor, uh - Mr. Price was somehow trying to suggest that this was not the stick found at the crimescene. In fact, that's what he said in his question, that it was not the same one found there at the crimescene and Detective Ridge said yes it was. And he says, "Well, you mean you didn't pick - get it until July the 1st?" and what Detective Ridge - what I heard him say before the objection was, "I didn't realize the significance of it until Jessie Misskelley's statement.
Ford: Judge, he did not say that.
Davidson: I don't think he said that, Your Honor. We would like to ask the tape be played back and see what it says.
Fogleman: Well, let's play it back.
Davidson: Ok.
Fogleman: Let's play it back.
Davidson: That's what we say.
Ford: Your Honor, on behalf of Mr. Baldwin, we would join in the motion for a mistrial. Uh - we feel that uh - at this point in time, that prejudice has been injected into the record - number one, it was injected at the time of Mr. Price's questioning and not questioning on behalf of Mr. Baldwin's counsel, the - that in the event that the court would not join - would not agree in the motion for a mistrial based upon these interjections that this evidence into the trial of Jason Baldwin - we would ask for a severence, Your Honor.
The Court: Anything else gentlemen - that y'all want to say? The motion for mistrial for both counsels will be denied.
Price: (talking over) (mumbling)
The Court: The motion for severence will be denied.
Price: Judge, the question that I was going - referring to the officer is the report that he gave that states (reading) on July 1, 1993, I went to the crimescene to determine if any evidence could be found that had been overlooked during the initial searches of the area of the above noted homicide. I discovered that there were 2 sticks at the crimescene that had gone previously undetected. Those numbers are E-138 and E-139. That's that stick. That is the stick that was previously - and that's the question that I was bringing out to the officer. That does not invoke and allow this officer to blurt out the confession - the reference to the confession. That's my basis for the question, I did not open the door for him to state that and I object at this time.
The Court: Well, a mistrial is a harsh remedy and the court's interpretation of what I heard, that there's absolutely no basis or justification for a mistrial at this time. I would be happy to give the jury a cautionary instruction to disregard the statement - disregard the officer's response to your question by saying uh - after the statement of Misskelley, or whatever. If y'all want - if y'all want a cautionary instruction, I'll be glad to give it.
Price: (mumbling)
Davidson: Can we have just a minute here, Your Honor?
The Court: Alright.
Fogleman: Your Honor, the state submits that - and maybe it might be good to play back the question and what the answer was.
The Court: I heard it. I know what he said and in my opinion, it's not - it's not error in the first place.
Fogleman: And I didn't think that it was an improper response to the question. The way Mr. Price -
The Court: (talking over) I ruled that. That the response could be considered to be appropriate to the question. Anything else?
Price: Just one more moment, Your Honor.
Ford: Well, can we have some kind of ground mark at what point in time these officers can interject this statement into the jury's mind again and again and again?
The Court: Well, the officers aren't suppose to interject anything. I'm saying that the question was appropriate to the form of the question - the answer was appropriate to the form of the question.
Ford: Are you ruling that Mr. Price -
The Court: He basically asked him, "Well, why did you go back?" and he was proceeding to tell him why.
Ford: So, are you ruling that Mr. Price opened the door to that statement by Mr. Ridge?
Price: Judge, Officer Ridge -
Ford: Wait - wait a minute Val. I'm asking, are you ruling that question opened the door to that statement?
The Court: I'm ruling that that question invited the answer - yes.
Ford: Ok. Then, Your Honor, in light of the fact that that was a question by Mr. Price, and we have a separate trial going on, and that statement in the trial -
The Court: Denied.
Ford: May I make my record?
The Court: Denied. I've already denied your motion for a severence and I'm gonna deny it again.
Ford: Can I make my record?
The Court: You've already made your record. I've already ruled. Anything else?
Davidson: Your Honor, we need a second to decide on a uh - a cautionary instruction.
The Court: Well, the only thing I'm gonna say to the jury is to disregard the last answer given by the officer.
Davidson: That's fine - and nothing saying about the statement?
The Court: I'm not gonna say what it was. I mean, that just further emphasize it.
Davidson: Ok.
The Court: If it was even error. I - I suggest gentlemen, that there isn't a soul up on that jury or in this courtroom that doesn't know Mr. Misskelley gave a statement. Now, the content of the statement certainly would be prejudicial. On the content of the statement, this court will not allow, and that was the reason for the severence in the first place. But merely stating that Misskelley gave a statement and I went back to do some further checking, it might uh -
Price: Judge, that's not even what the first sentence in his report says.
The Court: Well, I don't know what his report says, I hadn't read it. I mean, if you wanna cross examine him about the report -
Price: That's what I was looking to do, Judge.
The Court: Well, you need to be a little more specific then.
Price: Alright.
The Court: Alright. Court will be in recess -
Price: We would request the cautionary instruction.
The Court: Alright, I'll give that cautionary instruction that they're to disregard the last answer given by Officer Ridge. Court will be in recess for 10 minutes.
(tape flipped)
(mumbling)
Fogleman: Can he say we developed information that -
The Court: Yes.
Davidson: No -
Price: Judge -
Davidson: That's not what his letter says.
Price: Judge, read the yellow part of the -
The Court: Wait just a minute.
Davidson: That's what he says right there.
Price: Those are the three questions I was asking.
Fogleman: Going back to see if he'd forgotten anything.
(mumbling)
Fogleman: See if I had overlooked anything.
The Coourt: Well, it says (reading) while at the scene -
Fogleman: - the -
(mumbling)
Fogleman: He did. Ok.
The Court: Wait just a minute.
Ford: Judge, this is what I don't understand -
The Court: We need to have the microphone shut off right now.
(mumbling)
The Court: This investigative report that you're referring to says (reading) while at the scene, and thinking about the case so far and the statements that has been made of Jessie Misskelley, I discovered that 2 sticks -
Price: Back up. Read just the yellow highlights, Judge.
Fogleman: Well, you can't take just a part -
Price: Sure you can because - let me see it.
Fogleman: (mumbling)
Price: It says if -
The Court: If you ask him - well sure, you could make it an exhibit if you want to.
Price: Can I see it for just a minute? (reading) I went to the crimescene to determine if any evidence could be found there and had been overlooked in the initials searches of the area in the above noted homicide - period. (still reading) I discovered there were 2 sticks on the scene that had gone previously undetected - period. (continued reading) The 2 sticks were then -
Fogleman: He explains in the statement why.
The Court: You better be careful with it is all I got to say. If you ask him about it, I'm gonna let him explain why he went back.
Price: Are you saying if I ask this officer those specific questions, that allows him to get into the -
The Court: If you ask him did he make that - if that's a part of his report, if you ask that then his whole report becomes admissible.
Price: Judge, I'm asking him the specific - those 2 questions and not the rest of the report.
The Court: It's not - it's not a sworn statement.
Price: I know, but I -
The Court: Police reports are admissible.
Price: I know but I can ask that question without him getting into the confession.
Fogleman: Your Honor, it's not fair for him to be able to ask part and for him not to be able to give the full explanation - it's in there.
Davidson: You can ask the date that the evidence was obtained and that does not open it up.
The Court: The thing that you want to emphasize is that he went back there weeks or months later.
Davidson: Exactly.
The Court: And that's -
Price: And I also want to emphasize that his - it states in here, 2 sticks on the scene had previously gone undetected - and that's one of the same sticks that's in the picture so it hadn't gone undetected. The fact that they didn't -
The Court: If you're gonna bring all that out -
Price: Well, I intend to do that.
The Court: Well, I'm gonna let you do that, but he can also state that he went back to that scene after he determined that there was evidence that had been left there that became relevant from the course of his investigation.
Price: Alright, but -
The Court: He can tell ya that.
Price: Alright, but that doesn't open up about the confession.
Davidson: Just ask him about the time.
The Court: Well, I've told him not to mention that.
Davidson: We don't want it opened, just ask him about the date that he did it.
The Court: Alright ladies and gentlemen, uh - you're instructed and told at this time that you're to disregard and not consider the last answer or the last response made by Detective Ridge to the question from Mr. Price. And you're to - if you can remember it, that you're to strike it from your mind and to not give it any consideration.
Price: Can we approach?
The Court: Yes sir.
(bench conference)
Price: Just now that the court has given that cautionary instruction, we again feel that that is insufficient to sway the jury. We again renew our motion -
The Court: Well, I'm not going to take this to the level of a mistrial. I deny that motion.
Price: One other thing I wanted to say, um - the court earlier had mentioned that uh - some reference to the reason that - of the severence was about um - not the confession, but the details of the confession. By all respect to the state, but the sticks were contained in the confession that goes to the details of the confession and that's another basis for our -
The Court: Well, I understand that but it didn't go to the level of a mistrial. Ok. The reason of a mistrial - I mean, the reason the severence was granted, because it was false implicating.
Price: Alright.
The Court: Not the fact that sticks were found, but the fact that he implicated his co-defendants.
Price: Alright.
(open court)
The Court: Alright, you had some more questions?
Price: Yes, Your Honor.
(mumbling)
Price: Detective Ridge, was July the 1st, 1993 the date that you got that stick and uh - placed it into evidence?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: No furhter questions.
(mumbling)
Davidson: Detective Ridge, you were conducting a search of the area, looking for items - is that correct?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Davidson: And uh - you were in the water, I believe you testified - looking for evidence, is that right?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Davidson: Who recovered this stick?
Ridge: I did.
Davidson: And how did you recover that?
Ridge: Initially it was stuck in the mud with a shirt wrapped around the end of it.
Davidson: Did you pull it out of the water?
Ridge: It became dislodged as I was moving to the body of Michael Moore.
Davidson: And you were at - in this area? And you were looking for anything that you could find, is that right?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Davidson: Any evidence that you could find?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Davidson: And you were being careful when you were looking for evidence?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Davidson: Making sure that you didn't miss anything, is that correct?
Ridge: Attempting to, yes sir.
Davidson: Ok. And when you took this stick out of the water, where did you place it?
Ridge: On the bank.
Davidson: Ok. And where did you place it on the bank?
Ridge: On the east bank.
Davidson: Ok. Did you mark that stick when you placed it on the bank?
Ridge: No sir.
Davidson: Did you make any markings whatsoever on this stick?
Ridge: No sir.
Davidson: You were looking for items with blood on it, I'm sure?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Davidson: You were looking for items that may have um - skin tissue, would that be fair to say?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Davidson: You were looking for things that may have fingerprints on them, would that be fair to say?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Davidson: And you left that at the scene, is that correct?
Ridge: That's correct.
Davidson: Did a lightbulb ever go off in your heading thinking when you pulled that out that there may be some evidential value in that stick - and you just left it out there? Anything ever go through your mind like that?
Ridge: Not on that day it didn't, no sir.
Davidson: Never dawned on you?
Ridge: Not on that day.
Davidson: No questions.
Fogleman: Detective Ridge, without telling us what it is, was there some information that you developed later that made the lightbulb go off in your head?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Davidson: Object to the form of the question.
The Court: Overruled.
Fogleman: Ok, and what was your answer?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: Alright. I also want to show you state's exhibit 53 and ask if you can identify that?
Ridge: Yes, I can.
Fogleman: And how can you identify it?
Ridge: Packaged by me, dated, and initialed.
Fogleman: Alright. And when did you recover that stick?
Ridge: On the 6th, May the 6th.
Fogleman: Alright. Was that the day - same day that the victims were recovered?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: Alright. And where did you recover that item?
Ridge: It was floating in the water.
Fogleman: Is it also shown in the photograph?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: Your Honor, for - at this time, we would offer for identification purposes only, uh - state's exhibit uh - 53.
The Court: Alright, it may be recieved for identification purposes.
Fogleman: And, Your Honor, for right now we would offer 55 for identification only.
The Court: Alright, it may be recieved for identification purposes.
Fogleman: I want to show you state's exhibits, for identification purposes, 42, 38, 32, and 19 and ask if you can identify those photographs?
Ridge: Yes sir, I can.
Fogleman: Do those photographs fairly and accurately portray the scene as it appeared to you that day?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: Your Honor, we would offer state's exhibits 42, 38, 32, and 19.
(mumbling)
The Court: I believe they were accepted into evidence yesterday, according to the court reporter.
Fogleman: your Honor, after the things that transpired yesterday, I don't remember what happened.
(mumbling)
Davidson: 42 wasn't, Your Honor, I don't believe.
Fogleman: What do you show, Suzanne?
Court Reporter: I didn't show 'em entered, you mentioned them yesterday, but I didn't show them entered.
The Court: Let me see 'em.
(mumbling)
Fogleman: One of 'em may have, Your Honor.
The Court: I thought 19 had already been introduced, but I might be wrong.
(mumbling)
The Court: Alright, any objection?
Price: No objection, Your Honor.
Ford: No objection.
The Court: Alright, they may be recieved without objection. Call those numbers off again, John. Make sure we got 'em checked off.
Fogleman: 32, 19, 42, and 38. May Detective Ridge uh - step down and exhibit to the jury?
The Court: Yes.
Ridge: This is a photograph of me in the ditch at the crimescene. This long stick -
Fogleman: Refer to the exhibit number.
Ridge: Is exhibit 32. This is the long stick exhibiting - exhibit number 53, which is my number E-17, I believe, and it was found floating in the water and removed by me. Uh - this is a photograph of me, this is exhibit 19, I'm in the water removing items, as you can see exhibit uh - 53 or E-17 is this stick as it floats in the creek just below my position. This is the crimescene - this is the area here where the body of Michael Moore was located, this is the stick E-139 that had the shirt wrapped around the end of it that was jobbed into the mud.
Fogleman: Is that exhibit 55 for identification purposes?
Ridge: Uh - if that's the exhibit number, I'm not certain. Uh - exhibit 38 is a photograph of me as I'm removing this shirt from the end of that stick of E-139.
(female mumbling)
Fogleman: 42. Ok, you can retake the stand now.
(Ridge to stand)
Fogleman: Detective Ridge, uh - there at the scene that day, what other efforts did you make to secure additional evidence?
Ridge: Ok. This ditch was searched by me until I came to a point it was over my head in Ten Mile Bayou, in the same manner just as far as I could reach in the water uh - with my hands searching, uh - it was -
Fogleman: So you're saying that on exhibit 13 -
Ridge: Yes sir, on this exhibit, I actually came into the ditch in this area and started this search with the sweeping of my hand, searching for anything that was in the ditch. I got to about this area when it was too deep for me to reach and keep my head above the water and I just continued to search with my feet and just searching all the way til I got to near the Ten Mile Bayou, where it was over my head and I had to retreat. Uh - the search was continued in that we took sandbags and damned up the creek below where the bodies were found, below where the secondary creek that you could see that goes to the west and comes into the creek. It was damned off and - with sandbags. Above that area, where the bodies were found, was damned off with sandbags and all the water was pumped out of that area. Uh -
Fogleman: When the water was pumped out, was there anything over the end of the hose?
Ridge: Yes sir, there was a screen over the hose to see that nothing that would have uh - possibly been suspended in the water may have been pumped out by the pump.
Fogleman: Anything of significance found after pumping out the ditch?
Ridge: No sir.
Fogleman: I want to show you what's marked for identification purposes as state's exhibits 29 and 30, ask if you can identify those photographs?
Ridge: Yes sir, I can.
Fogleman: Do those fairly and accurately portray the scene as it appeared to you that day?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: Your Honor, we would offer exhibits 29 and 30.
(mumbling)
Davidson: No objections, Your Honor.
Ford: No objections, Your Honor.
The Court: Alright, it may be recieved without objection.
Fogleman: Rather than have you step down again Detective Ridge, in both 29 and 30, does it reflect the sandbags?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: And where are you in relation to the sanbags in the picture?
Ridge: I'm standing over the sandbags holding the hose and the screened top, see that nothing passes.
Fogleman: Exhibit to the jury, Your Honor?
The Court: Yes, you may.
Fogleman: Alright, were efforts also made to search the Ten Mile Bayou?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: Alright, and what - how did you do that?
Ridge: Ok. We asked Search and Rescue to come in and search, with grappling hooks, the Ten Mile Bayou to see if they could find anything and bicycles were located near the pipe, where they cross Ten Mile Bayou. Uh - additional search was conducted with magnets, uh - to determine if anything - metal objects could be found in the flow of water in Ten Mile Bayou and the mouth of the creek where the bodies were found.
Fogleman: Other than the bicycles, was anything of significance found in the Ten Mile Bayou?
Ridge: No sir.
Fogleman: I don't have any further questions at this time, Your Honor.
Price: Detective Ridge, on May the 6th, 1993 did you and Detective Allen go to the Bojangles Restaurant?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: Ok. And what - did you talk with a manager there, Marty King?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: Ok. Did he tell you, an individual had - a black man with blood on him had been at the restaurant the evening before?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: Ok. When you were at the Bojangles Restaurant, did Marty King give you a pair of sunglasses?
Ridge: I don't remember a pair of sunglasses, no sir.
Price: Ok. Do you recall taking blood scrapings from the north wall inside the women's bathroom above the toilet?
Ridge: I found an - a trace remains, possibly blood in the ladies' bathroom of the Bojangles, yes sir.
Price: Did you also take blood scrapings from inside of a door to the women's bathroom at Bojangles?
Ridge: I'm not certain, it's possible.
Price: Alright. And did you also blood samples from the entrance hall to the bathroom from the sitting area at Bojangles?
Ridge: I don't think so.
Price: Ok.
Ridge: That area had been cleaned to the best of my knowledge.
Price: Alright. If I could approach, uh - when you went to the Bojangles Restaurant, was Detective Allen - did he write up a report about what you and he did at the Bojangles Restaurant?
Ridge: He was talking with the manager as I was looking through the area, yes sir.
Price: Ok. Your Honor, if I could approach the witness and take a look at the yellow portion, that may reflect your recollection.
(pause)
Price: Ok. Alright Detective Ridge, what is the date that you sent the blood scrapings off to the crimelab to be analyzed?
Ridge: They were never sent.
Price: They were never sent?
Ridge: That's correct.
Price: Alright, where are the blood samples at this time?
Ridge: I don't know sir, they were lost.
Price: They're lost?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: You mean this is the evidence that y'all have in this case - the blood scrapings are lost?
Ridge: If they were blood, yes sir, they're lost.
Price: Well, whatever they were - you took samples of something and was the purpose you took them was to send to the crimelab?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: But they're just lost?
Ridge: Yes sir. That's my mistake, I lost a piece of evidence.
Price: Ok. Do you recall if Marty King, the manager of Bojangles, gave you a pair of sunglasses?
Ridge: I don't recall the sunglasses.
Price: Ok. During part of the investigation, did you talk to a witness name Kim Williams - somewhere on or about May 8th?
Ridge: I'm trying to remember, I think so, yes sir.
Price: Ok. If -
Fogleman: Excuse me Mr. Price. Your Honor, I'm not exactly sure where Mr. Price is going with this, I don't - but it sounds to me like he's about to ask Detective Ridge what somebody told him and we certainly don't mind Mr. Price bringing the witness up here to have him testify to whatever they said.
Price: Judge, I'm not going to ask the witness what another witness told him, I'm going to ask him what he wrote down concerning - not the statement themselves, but his conclusion about that statement after talking to that witness. And that's something that's contained in his report and I think that's certainly admissible.
The Court: Approach the bench.
(pause)
Fogleman: What are you talking about?
Price: I'm talking about this part here that has mentioned occult activity, some men blackening their faces.
Fogleman: If he wants to ask that Your Honor, we don't have any objection at all because I think that would open the door to allow us to ask about whatever evidence that he had that there was cult activity involved.
The Court: Let me see what you want to do with that, you are on shakey ground.
Price: (brief mumbles)
(whispering)
Price: What I want to ask this witness about is his report about occult activity where people blacken their faces.
Fogleman: And we said if you want to ask that question, we don't have any objection because my opinion is it opens the door for us to ask Detective Ridge what evidence there was of occult activity.
Ford: Well, Your Honor -
The Court: Well, if you're not objecting to it, I'm gonna let him do it.
Ford: I do object to it. The motion of limine in this case would be there was no introduction of occult activity and occult information as to the court held an in camera hearing to determine that there is a factual basis to establish - that is true.
Price: Which was filed by Mr. Baldwin and Mr. Echols did not join in on that motion, Judge.
Ford: We object, Your Honor.
Price: Dude, but basically the statement says the witness saw two black males and a white male leaving the wooded area and there are times - I think these are from 3 to 6. And then I want to ask the officer about his conclusion -
The Court: Wait a minute. Alright ladies and gentlemen, I'm gonna give you your noon recess at this time and ask that you report back at 12:30 and again you're reminded of the admonition of the court not to discuss the case and you're free to go until 12:30.
(mumbling)
Ford: Your Honor, we would ask that the witness not that the witness be excluded from this conversation 'cause his testimony could be affected by what is said, exchanges by counsel, by the court. That's not what the witness' role is, Your Honor.
(mumbling)
(metal detector screaming in background)
The Court: Alright. Let's wait until they get out.
Ford: Your Honor, can we ask that the witness leave?
The Court: Well, the witness is gonna be needed. We're gonna be asking him questions, I assume.
(mumbling)
(metal detector screaming in background)
The Court: Alright, court's in session. I'm just waiting for it to settle down in the courtroom so we can get started here. Alright, let the record reflect that this is a hearing out of the presence of the jury. Alright gentlemen, uh - what exactly is it you want to do, Mr. Price? If you're gonna question the officer from a police report that he made, then I'm gonna sustain the objection to it. Police reports are not exceptions to the hearsay rule. If you wanna call a witness that he identified and have that witness take the stand, question the witness about a statement they may have given an officer - fine. Otherwise, uh - it's hearsay.
Price: Judge, my point is, the officer talked to a witness that indicated that there was one white male and two black males seen coming out of the Robinhood area between 5:30 and 6:00 pm on the day of the murders. The officer adds his own conclusion (reading) has been mentioned that during occult activity, some members blacken their faces. The statement he took from the witness was on May 8th, which would have been 3 days after the bodies were found and it's our contention that the police - from day one, were alleging that this is a cult relate killing but that there's no evidence of a cult related killing. And that's part of the - and that's part of our theory about attacking the police investigation. That's why the initials questions I asked Officer Allen yesterday about -
The Court: You gonna bring up any cult activity as a possible motive? Do you plan to develop that in this case?
Fogleman: Your Honor, we haven't made that decision. It depends on how the case develops.
The Court: Ok. Well, in any event, Mr. Price if you want to produce that evidence, you can call Kim Williams.
Price: Alright, but Kim Williams didn't make the comment that (reading) during - it has been mentioned that occult activity, some members blacken their faces. Detective Ridge -
The Court: Is that what you want to ask him?
Price: Yes sir. That's exactly - because they take a statement -
The Court: You want to interject it, yourself?
Price: Yes sir. They take a statement -
The Court: Well, I'm not gonna allow that.
Price: Judge, they take a statement from a witness that sees two black men and a white make coming out of the Robinhood's area and that rather than pursuing whether or not a black male was out there, they turn around and say this must be a cult killing because the conclusion say it here.
The Court: What you're basically asking the officer to do, rather than testify to what the woman told him - which would be hearsay on his part, is to testify to a conclusion he drew from hearsay testimony?
Price: That's exactly right.
The Court: Or an opinion that he drew off of hear -
Price: That's exactly right.
The Court: No, I'm not gonna allow him to state his opinion or conclusion that he drew from hearsay statement.
Price: Alright. Will the court allow me to put him back on the stand after I call Ms. Williams?
The Court: Yeah, I guess so. You can ask him at that point perhaps, uh - well, I'm not even sure then whether his opinion or conclusion would be admissible.
Price: Judge, that's our whole point. It's our position that this is not a cult related killing, that there's absolutely no evidence at the crimescene of a cult related killing.
The Court: I haven't heard in opening statements or any remarks on the part of the prosecutors that even suggested that will be an attempt on their part to prove motive. In the previous case which you attended most of, I think they were - it was their theory that that was a possible motive for the killing and they may prove motive if they're able to do so and they may not prove motive, they don't have to, so if they are electing not to in this case - it's a different trial stradegy.
Price: Well, I noticed that one of the witness subpoena by the state is a cult expert from Ohio and I suppose -
The Court: Does that mean that they're gonna call him?
Price: Well, that means that we are certainly preparing if they call him, Judge.
The Court: Well -
Price: Is the state saying that they are not going to claim that this is a cult related killing?
The Court: I don't know, they're not required to say that. I don't know, but I'm not gonna let you ask this police officer to repeat hearsay one and two and -
Price: I'm not asking for the hearsay.
The Court: I'm not gonna let him give his opinion or conclusion on the basis of that hearsay. I mean, we can spend days here if you went through every person they interviewed and ask 'em what Joe Bleaux told you on the 5th day of June, 1993 - I mean, that's hearsay.
Davidson: He's not asking that, Your Honor.
Price: I'm asking -
The Court: He's asking - he's asking the officer basically did you take a statement from so and so, and based upon that statement - which is clearly hearsay and you know it -
Price: Yes sir, that's correct.
The Court: To formulate an opinion or draw a conclusion, and I'm not going to allow that.
Price: Our position, Judge, within two or three days after the murders, the police - the West Memphis Police Department was alleging that this was a cult related killing, that's the only reason they went after my client, Damien Echols. To try to link him in a cult related killing.
The Court: Again, whether or not it was -
Price: And that's why we're entitled to bring it up to this witness.
The Court: Whether or not it was cult related doesn't really have a whole lot to do with anything here, unless that was a possible motive. Do you want to prove motive?
Price: I want to disprove motive, Judge. I want to disprove motive.
The Court: Well, motive - they don't have to prove motive.
Fogleman: Well Your Honor, if they want to stipulate Mr. Echols -
Ford: Wait, wait. If you're gonna say "they", we need to let the record reflect who "they" is.
Fogleman: If Mr. Price and Mr. Davidson want to stipulate that Damien Echols was involved in satanism and devil worship, uh - then we don't have any objection with him going into that.
Price: We're not stipulating that, Judge. We're not stipulating that, that's the whole purpose for the case. But because the sate - because the police was pushing this as a cult related killing -
The Court: Alright. I'll do this, I'm gonna - same ruling I've made, if the state attempts to prove cult related activity - and the only way I would even allow them to do that is if they suggested that was a possible motive for the homicides. If they do that, then that's gonna open the door for you to attack the officers upon, uh - that basis.
Ford: Your Honor, I would like to state on behalf of Mr. Baldwin that the order is, not only that they attempt to offer it but you - they have to determine in camera that there is a reasonable basis for that conclusion to even be brought out.
The Court: That's why we're having this hearing right now partially. On the other hand, if it were introduced going to Mr. Echols only and that the only effort or attempt was to establish evidence on the part of Mr. Echols' activity in that regard then there will be very strong cautionary instruction given to the jury that that evidence should be taken to Echols only and not to Mr. Baldwin.
Price: Alright.
The Court: And at this time, I'm not gonna allow it - period.
Price: Alright.
The Court: It's hearsay, it's conclusionary, supposition, and opinion on the part of the officer based upon the unsubstantiated hearsay statement for which the people observed by which the - declarant haven't even been identified. I'm not even sure it's relevant. Although it could be.
Price: If the state alleges a cult related killing, it's certainly relevant.
The Court: Well -
Price: Ofcourse they haven't made that -
The Court: They haven't done that. Until they open that up, then I'm gonna say that you don't have any right to cross examine witnesses on cult activity. Now, if they open it up in effort to prove some motive, then it's "Katie bar the door", you can go right ahead.
Price: Alright.
The Court: Ok?
Davidson: At that time, Your Honor - just to make it clear, we would have to recall these witnesses.
The Court: That's fine.
Davidson: Just wanted to make that be known.
Tne Court: That's fine, but now I want each of ya to understand - if you want to make any record on it now, if you're going to attempt to call the hundreds of people, uh - if you're going to attempt to cross examine police officers on the basis of interviews taken in this case that lead to blind leaves, false alleys, uh - whatever term you choose to use, uh - that's going to be a hearsay, um - issue because a police report is hearsay. Now if you want to call all those people, I might allow it but even then the question of relevancy is gonna crop up so let's get that out of the way right now so we don't have to waste anymore time on those issues.
Ford: Well Your Honor, until the trial develops -
The Court: I mean -
Ford: Until the state's offered it's case, the method and manner in which the witness will be cross examined - it's impossible to make a record as to how we may cross examine Mr. Gitchell, how we may cross examine Mr. Durham - until they testify.
The Court: I'm not telling ya that, Mr. Ford.
Ford: You're saying if we are gonna question these witnesses about something they may have learned or may have - what their investigation revealed - he's testifying now what his investigation revealed -
The Court: He can testify to what's in his personal knowledge. He can not testify what someone told him. Officers go out and conduct interviews and take statements from people, those statements and interviews are hearsay. And that's what I'm telling you. Ok. And it doesn't take, uh -
Ford: It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure that out.
The Court: Alright. That's what I'm telling ya.
Davidson: But at the same time, we can ask him why he didn't follow that lead, can we not?
(mumbling)
The Court: Well, if you get the lead in by credible evidence, perhaps you can ask why he didn't follow it but I suggest that if in order to develop the lead is hearsay, then no you can't ask him that. So if you're gonna try and introduce hearsay, you better get me some real strong law - and I think rule 803 subparagraph A is rather clear and all the andoctated cases on, it's extremely clear that it's blatant hearsay.
Price: If the state is not gonna allege it's a cult related killing, that's fine Judge.
The Court: Well, I don't know whether they are or not, until they do then you are not gonna open that area yourself.
Price: But if they do, Judge -
The Court: If they do, then I think -
Price: There will be alot more coming in.
Ford: Your Honor, we -
The Court: Well let me put it like this, if they attempt to prove motive and that attempt uh - develops cult or satanic business and you want to ask the officer "Did you come to the conclusion or form an opinion that it was satanic", then perhaps I'll allow it at that time. But even then, the statement given by the witness is still hearsay, so you're not gonna get that witness' statement in by the officer conducting the interview.
Price: But once I put that statement - once I put that witness on, then I could call Officer Ridge back on the stand about each conclusion he had?
The Court: Well, I'm not sure his conclusions or opinions are admissible at all and they're certainly not relevant, unless the state has attempted to prove motive. If they have, then maybe I would find that they were relevant.
Price: Is the court aware of, we have a thousand pages of discovery from the state alleging a cult related killing?
The Court: I've read most of it.
Price: Ok.
The Court: Doesn't mean they have to prove motive. If they don't open it up then -
Ford: Is the court stating that it has read the prosecution's discovery file?
The Court: No, that's not what I'm saying. I'm saying I've read many of the documents that you've put before me and some of those depositions were read by the court previously.
Ford: Ok.
The Court: I haven't seen the state's file or your file for that matter.
Ford: Well now, you just indicated that you had read it and I just wondered where you had read it -
The Court: No, that's not what I said, I said I had read much of it or many of 'em. And I assume that your discoveries are all a matter of this court record anyway, which I have read.
Price: It's a matter of 15 black volumes over here, but -
The Court: I haven't read all that junk and don't intend to.
Price: Yes sir.
The Court: I just want to be sure you understand what I'm saying, what's hearsay, 'cause the police statements are hearsay and I'm not gonna allow ya to call an officer up here and did you take a statement from Joe Bleaux or did he or she say such and such.
Price: But it's his conclusion, is what I was attempting to -
The Court: Well, I mean that - conclusions and opinions are not admissible under our modern rules and under our modern uh - procedures of evidence, uh - some opinions and some conclusions by laypersons are appropriate and are admissible if they're the type opinions and conclusions that are normally drawn by laypeople.
Price: But Judge, the whole focus of the investigation of the police was focusing, alleging that my client was a satanist and all the people that they asked - many of it was centered on whether or not my client believes in satan -
The Court: Well, they very well may believed during the course of investigation that that was the reason for the killings.
(pause)
The Court: And motive is something they can, if they choose to prove and can--they can, if they don't choose to prove it--they don't have to. So until there is an effort to prove motive in that area, then I'm not gonna allow you to open up something that's not relevant. Particularly through opinion testimony, you might be able to do it some other way. But you're not going to do it through opinion of an Officer based upon a hearsay statement. That's what I'm saying at this point, and I'm not barring you from developing that as a - your theory of the case, you certainly can do it if you can do it through other credible evidence.
Ford: Your Honor, we're excused til 12:30?
The Court: Yes.
Ford: Thank you sir.
The Court: Court will be in recess until 12:30.
(audio stops, then begins abruptly)
(Open Court)
Price: --state's exhibit number 48, when was state's exhibit number 45, and when was state's exhibit number 52? Do you know which pair of pants belonged to which victim?
Ridge: The only one that I would know would be that the boy scout uniform was that of Michael Moore.
Price: Alright. So that--the--as far as the shirt, the boy scout shirt which is state's exhibit number 43--
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: This shirt right here would have been Michael Moore's shirt?
Ridge: That's my understanding, yes sir.
Price: Alright. Um--in examining the shirt, I know there were some--right--let's see. Near the collar, there was a cutting that was taken. Was this something that was sent off to another lab for testing?
Ridge: The crime lab took care of those cuttings and I suspect that maybe they sent something off, but I don't know that.
Price: Ok. Excluding this particular cutting that is here on the shirt, on the rest of the shirt itself, did you detect any noticeable blood on either the outside or the inside of this boy scout shirt?
Ridge: No sir, I did not.
Price: Ok. Did you detect any type of um--tearing done to the boy scout shirt?
Ridge: No sir.
Price: Ok. Were any type of other evidence--were any buttons pulled off, any type of things indicating any kind of struggle with the boy scout shirt?
Ridge: Not to my knowledge.
Price: Ok, and did you also notice any type of um--other than the one cutting that you said that the crime lab did, and that's where they actually--if they think there's some evidence on a--in a certain area, sometimes they actually cut it with either a knife or scissors or something and remove a chunk of cloth, is that right?
Ridge: That's my understanding, whether it be for evidence that may be on that piece or if it's a sample of a fiber that they maybe save for future reference.
Price: Ok, but other than that, there's no other uh--cut, um--evidence of this boy scout shirt being cut or sliced or anything of that nature?
Ridge: Not that I know of, no sir.
Price: Ok. Alright, the next item will be item number 49, which would have been the striped shirt. Um. Ok. On this shirt, there were--I noticed back here is what appears to be a cut out area, and if you look inside there's a number--I think it says--it says 57. Would this have been something the crimelab would have cut out?
Ridge: To my knowledge, yes sir.
Price: Ok. And besides that particular cutting, which I will refer to as a crime lab cutting, did you notice any other evidence that this shirt either being torn or ripped or in a struggle?
Ridge: no sir, not that I know.
Price: Did you notice any blood on this particular shirt?
Ridge: Not that I observed, no sir.
Price: (mumbling) Do you recall if--was this--this is the striped shirt, if when you found this striped shirt, was this striped shirt inside out?
Ridge: I'm not certain.
Price: Ok. Was--do--to your knowledge, was any of the shirts inside out?
Ridge: I'm not certain.
Price: Ok. And this t-shirt is just--is a pull over--the pull over your head kind of t-shirt.
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: Ok Detective Ridge, the same type of question. The last shirt would have been--state's exhibit number 44. This is also another t-shirt. Um. There appears to be a hole in this area, which has some numbering by it and I assume that is also something the crime lab would have done?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: Ok. Did this particular t-shirt--was there any evidence of any kind of knife wounds through this particular t-shirt?
Ridge: Not that I'm aware of, no.
Price: Were there any evidence of any--of it being torn or ripped on this t-shirt?
Ridge: Not that I'm aware of.
Price: And also, any evidence of any blood on this t-shirt?
Ridge: No sir, not that I'm aware of.
Price: Officer Ridge, my next batch of questions are dealing with the pants. Let me pull out state's exhibit number 48, which are blue jean type pants. Uh--do you recall--I think you testified on direct examination that two of the pair of pants were inside out and buttoned up?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: Ok. Do you recall which of the three--which of the two pair of pants that was?
Ridge: No sir, I don't recall that.
Price: Ok. Do you recall whether which of the boys the pants belonged to that were--the ones that was inside out?
Ridge: No sir.
Price: Ok. Now on this particular pair of blue jean pants, there appears to be an area cut out on the--looks like the knee, the right knee, with some--
Fogleman: (mumbling)
Price: Do what?
Fogleman: (mumbling)
Price: Oh, ok. Excuse me. Alright. There does appear to be a hole where the knee is, up by the thigh there are some crime lab markings. And this would have been another one of the cuttings?
Ridge: I'm not sure, but I guess that could be true.
Price: Ok. And also in the back portion, there also appears to be a hole or a cut, another number mark. Other than those two cuttings, uh--do you recall--now I want to also--on the right pocket, there appears to be--if I could approach, Judge. Looks like some initials and additional numbering.
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: On the right pocket. Other than those three areas that we--I just talked about, did you see any evidence of any kind of cutting on these blue jeans?
Ridge: I do not know, sir.
Price: Ok. How about any evidence of any kind of tear besides the hole in the right knee?
Ridge: Not that I'm aware of, no sir.
Price: Ok. And do you recall seeing any type of blood on these pants?
Ridge: No sir.
Price: Ok. And would the same answers be true as far as the inside of the pants as the outside of the pants?
Fogleman: Your Honor, I think the Officer testi--I object, Your Honor. It's uh--I believe that he's asking questions that are not within the Officer's knowledge. I think the Officer testified that he removed the clothes from the water, put 'em in the sack, and I don't remember any testimony about him--ya know, microscopically or any other way inspecting the pants or these things.
Price: Officer Ridge, did you look at the pants when you pulled them out of the water?
Ridge: Yes sir, I looked at 'em.
Price: Were you looking for any evidence when you looked at the pants?
Ridge: Anything obvious, yes sir. But my main purpose was to preserve any fibers, trace, anything that may be on that clothing and put it in that sack.
Price: Ok. Once they were placed in the sack, and you testified earlier about the procedure of drying out and then going to the crime lab. Would somebody from the crime lab have taken a closer look at the pants in better detail than you did?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: Ok. The next pair of pants would be, also a pair of blue pants, state's exhibit number 45. There appears there on the front part--there appears to be a cut out portion with some numbers by it. Alright. These pants appear to be inside out, do you recall off hand if these are one of the two pairs that was inside out when you recovered them at the crimescene?
Ridge: Off hand, no sir, I don't remember.
Price: Ok. If you would refresh your recollection by looking at any report that you prepared at the crimescene, would you be able to tell?
Ridge: Uh--no sir. Only that I remember two of the pants were inside out and one pair was right side out.
Price: Alright. Did you notice any type of tears on these pants as you pulled them out of the water?
Ridge: I didn't notice any, no sir.
Price: Ok. Did you notice any blood on these pants when you pulled them out of the water?
Ridge: No sir.
Price: Ok. (mumbling) My last question would deal with state's exhibit number 52, these are blue jean pants. Um--there's a couple of--looks like a marking with some additional markings on the back portion, which I assume would be something the crime lab may have done. And there's some areas on the front, but other than that--excuse me, also the left knee, there appears to be a torn out area. Any type of um--of either tears above the waist or tears by the bottom part of the cuffs of the pants, that you recall?
Ridge: Not that I'm aware, no sir.
Price: How about any evidence of any type of blood on the pants that you can recall?
Ridge: Nothing visible, no sir.
Price: Ok. And to your knowledge, were the buttons on each of those three pairs of pants--was the buttons themselves actually working?
Ridge: I'm not certain. Uh--
Price: What--
Ridge: They were placed in the sack exactly as I removed them from the water and that's the best that I can recall.
Price: Ok.
Ridge: I didn't work any of the buttons, I didn't work any of the zippers.
Price: Alright. Do you recall off hand if any other Officers at the crimescene would have worked the zippers or worked the buttons?
Ridge: Not that I'm aware of, no sir.
Price: One moment, Your Honor.
(pause)
Price: Officer Ridge, my next question, I want to ask you some questions about possible footprint evidence at the scene. Uh--the first photograph, I'll go ahead and mark this as, um--just a moment Judge.
The Court: Alright.
Price: The defendant's E-1.
(mumbling)
Price: Yeah, um.
(mumbling)
Price: Here's this one. Judge, if I could mark this one, it's the next one. Alright, I've got a group of these photographs, Judge.
The Court: What are the notations on the back of one? I see one from here.
Price: This particular notation right here Judge, is that indicates Echols' exhibit number 2--footprint left by Detective Ridge at the scene.
Fogleman: Your Honor, I certainly have no objection to it. I don't know why we're putting in Detective Ridge's footprint.
Price: Judge, the reason is, I want to rule out this footprint as oppose to the additional unknown prints that were found at the crimescene.
Fogleman: That's fine, Your Honor. We don't have any objections to that.
Price: Detective Ridge, this uh--E-2 or Echols 2, that was a particular footprint that you had left at the crimescene?
Ridge: Yes, it is my footprint.
Price: Alright. Um--excluding that print, while you were at the crimescene, did y'all also take a cast of a possible, either a footprint or a shoe print?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: Ok. And I believe um--
(mumbling)
Price: Detective Ridge, state's exhibit number 37B--you wanna take a look at that photograph there.
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: That appears to be you--are you making some type of plaster paris cast of a potential print that was found at this crimescene?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: Ok. Was that a barefoot print or was that a shoe type print?
Ridge: It appeared to be a shoe type print.
Price: Ok. And also, if I could approach. Take a look at that, um--is the picture you're looking at now, is that the same picture as the other one? Is that the same--strike that question. Does both of the pictures show the same cast?
Ridge: No sir.
Price: Alright. Was there more than one cast taken at the crimescene?
Ridge: At the crimescene?
Price: At the crimescene.
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: Alright. So the one that has already been introduced into evidence, that was a footprint--
Ridge: Yes.
Price: --of a foot mark--a shoe print.
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: Ok. The one you have in your hand, what type of print was that?
Ridge: It's some kind of latent ridged print.
Price: Alright. Was that a barefoot print?
Ridge: It's unknown.
Price: Ok. Well, could it also have been a fingerprint?
Ridge: It could have been, yes sir.
Price: Ok. But they're two different types of boxes, and we're talking about two different possible prints?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: Ok. Judge, at this time I would like to mark the polaroid pictures next to the defense exhibit, I think. Echols 3.
(pause)
Price: Right here, uh--
The Court: Any objection?
Fogleman: No.
The Court: Alright, they may be received.
Price: Alright. And this is a photograph of a plaster cast that was performed on a latent print removed from the crimescene on May the 6th, 1993. Were y'all ever able to match up this particular print with anyone's print who is connected with this case?
Ridge: No sir.
Price: And during this case, y'all obtained fingerprints of Damien Echols?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: And y'all also obtained barefeet print impressions of Damien Echols?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: And y'all also, during a search of his house, got some boots that belonged to Damien Echols?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: If I could pose this to the jury, Your Honor?
The Court: Alright.
Price: Um--Officer Ridge, besides the two items we have just talked about, were there other potential footprints found at the scene?
Ridge: There were two plaster casts made of footprints at the scene.
Price: Ok. Now those would have been two different plaster casts?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: Alright, um--there's a group of photographs here, would it help you to look at these photographs to tell if these photographs are of the different types of footprints that you found at the scene?
Ridge: I'd just have to look at the photographs.
Price: Alright. Judge, I think it might be easier, since I don't want to duplicate the photographs, but if I could approach the witness and let him look at these and --
Ridge: Do you want to keep 'em in order?
Price: Naa, go ahead.
Ridge: Ok.
Price: I think once he has a chance to look at 'em, I can mark 'em and proceed with questioning.
The Court: Alright.
(pause)
Ridge: Ok sir, I can give you some explanations for these pictures if that's what you'd like.
Price: Ok. Are there -- is there one better picture of each possible print that y'all found at the scene?
Ridge: Uh -- the footprints? There's a series of footprints here at the scene of photographs that was taken.
Price: Ok. I notice you've got a couple pictures in your hand, are they all of the same print?
Ridge: There are two prints in these pictures.
Price: Two different prints?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: Ok. Besides the ones you're looking at, would the other pictures that I have up there, are they just duplicates of the same ones you have --
Ridge: No sir.
Price: Do they show any different prints?
Ridge: They do show some different prints, also these are prints that were found in a different area.
Price: Ok, the woods --
Ridge: Not at the crimescene.
Price: Alright. The different area that you're talking -- but not in Robinhood area where the boys were found?
Ridge: Not in the specific location, the creek and not in the area where the bodies were found. Uh -- there are some pictures here that you have divided which are pictures of a metal detector search.
Price: Ok. That was also done -- y'all did that within two or three days of finding the bodies?
Ridge: That's correct, yes sir.
Price: Ok. Go ahead and get those pictures, let me take those away.
Ridge: Ok sir.
Price: This batch here?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: (mumbling)
Ridge: You have a photograph here of --
Price: (mumbling)
Ridge: Do you want an explanation?
Price: No.
Ridge: Ok sir. During the metal detector search, this item was found also.
(pause)
Ridge: This is a picture of my footprint. These photographs were taken by another detective at a different area, other than that is the area known as Devil's Den.
Price: Alright, is the area of Devil's Den on state's -- the map, state's exhibit number 13?
Ridge: No sir, I can explain to you where it would be.
Price: Um -- is it in --
Ridge: On the aeriel photograph.
Price: On the aeriel photograph?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: How far away is the Devil's Den area from this area?
Ridge: 400 yards.
(mumbling)
Price: On state's exhibit 101, would this aeriel photograph be one --
Ridge: Yes sir, it will have it.
(mumbling)
Price: It might just be easier to go over -- if I could hold that here.
Ridge: This is the area of where the bodies were located here, go back across the creek and ya come down to this area here, which is Devil's Den.
Price: Oh. Ok. So go ahead and take and removed the Devil's Den footprints.
Ridge: I am fairly certain that these pictures are -- ok, that's -- this is Devil's Den and this is Devil's Den.
Price: Ok.
Ridge: There's some pictures here that I can't identify. They're sort of panning shots. I don't know exactly what they are.
Price: Alright.
Ridge: This is one of the trailer parks. And this is marked as the east side of the crimescene, there's a steep bank and all it is, is where somebody -- you can see where something had slid down the bank.
Price: Ok. Now this, the one that you just said where someone slid down the bank, this was the -- a steep area of the bank -- this is the one we introduced a minute ago, uh -- Echols 1. This was a footprint, that somebody slid down the east side of the bank. Um -- were you ever able to match up any type of print of this particular slide?
Ridge: Sir, there's not enough definition there to even know that's a footprint. I don't know what -- it's something, slid down the bank there.
Price: Alright. (mumbling) Alright, the remaining photographs that you have in front of you, do they show two or three different footprints?
Ridge: Two, yes sir.
Price: Two different footprints?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: Let me go ahead and um -- let me mark them at this time, Judge.
(mumbling)
Ridge: I didn't keep 'em in order.
Price: Ok. Um -- can you group those, the ones that are about one print and the other group of the other print?
Ridge: It's right there, yes.
Price: Ok.
(mumbling)
Price: Judge, I think I'd like to mark two different groups. One as E-4; a, b, c, d, and e.
(pause)
(mumbling)
Price: And this one as Echols 5; a, b, c, and d.
(pause)
(mumbling)
Price: Alright Officer, just so we get all this straight. There was state's exhibit -- or defense exhibit Echols 4 --
(tape flipped)
Price: -- taken --
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: And --
Ridge: Some of these are duplicates of each other, you're aware of that?
Price: The which -- do what now?
Ridge: These are duplicates of each other.
Price: Ok. Um -- I guess --
Ridge: We had several copies made and when you went through the files, you picked out a different batch as they are pictures of the same item.
Price: To make it easier, go ahead and pull out the duplicates and I won't introduce that.
Ridge: Ok. Those two are duplicates of each of those.
Price: Ok.
Ridge: Ok.
(mumbling)
Price: Ok. I want to introduce 5a and 5b.
Ridge: These are a little bit different angle, they were just more shots taken, so I think that we can say these are all individual pictures.
Price: Ok.
(mumbling)
Price: Alright. So to clarify, 5b - a, and b is one print. 4; a, b, c, d, and e is all of one print.
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: And the prints that y'all made the cast out of were also -- one cast was made out of this shoe print and one was made out of this shoe print.
Ridge: That's correct, yes sir.
Price: Besides those, there was the sliding down from the -- that y'all couldn't get anything out of, apparently something sliding down the steep bank.
Ridge: That's correct.
Price: Ok. Now let's go back to 4a. Do you recall, in those group of photographs, where those photographs were found in relation to where the bodies were found?
Ridge: Uh -- just north of the body of Michael Moore, and on the east bank.
Price: Alright. East bank, would that have been the flattened area?
Ridge: The flattened area, if you'll go just a little bit further to north turns into a steeper slope. It's that area, where the steeper slope is.
Price: Alright. And then moving to the other batch of photographs, what -- as far as the location, on those two photographs, where were they -- where was that print?
Ridge: Ok. If you invision, these prints are side by side, about the space like this.
Price: Ok. Did they appear to you to be made by the same shoe?
Ridge: The same shoe?
Price: The same shoe.
Ridge: No sir.
Price: Ok. Now y'all took a cast -- or did they appear to you to be of a tennis shoe print?
Ridge: Uh -- yes sir, it appeared they could have been.
Price: Ok. Now that's both the -- the pictures in a, excuse me -- the pictures in 4, and also the pictures in 5?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: Could you tell by looking at those pictures, if it appeared to be the same type style of sole of the tennis shoe?
Ridge: Yes sir. It appeared to be to me.
Price: Ok. Could you tell if both of them were -- if one was a right and one was a left?
Ridge: It appeared that one was a left and one was a right.
Price: Ok. Now during the investigation, y'all seized evidence from Damien Echols' house.
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: And you were not able to find any match of any footprints at Damien Echols' house with those prints?
Ridge: No sir.
Price: Ok. Judge, if I could, I would like to introduce these photographs into evidence.
The Court: Any objections?
Fogleman: No sir.
Price: Pose them to the jury?
Fogleman: Your Honor, as long as it's understood, the testimony has been that although there are a number of photographs, we're talking about two shoe prints and not eight or nine.
Price: That's fine, Judge. If I -- do you have a paper clip? That might make it easier.
The Court: Let me see what I have.
Price: I have no objection to clipping them, Judge.
The Court: Alright, they may be received. Did you say you needed a short recess?
Price: Judge, I'm close to finishing.
The Court: Alright.
(mumbling)
Price: Alright Detective Ridge, during the investigation, were you ever able to obtain a match with anyone's footwear between the photographs in exhibit number 5 and exhibit number 4?
Ridge: No sir.
Price: And also during the -- when y'all were out at the crimescene, did you ever find any shoe imprints matching the shoes that the victims were wearing?
Ridge: No sir.
Price: Ok. We have state's exhibit number 46a and b, which is a pair of white tennis shoes.
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: And there was no match that you could find of these tennis shoes out there where the bodies were located?
Ridge: Not where they were located.
Price: And there was no match by either a cast imprint or by a photograph?
Ridge: No sir, no match.
Price: Ok. The next questions, the black tennis shoes with purple interior, 47a and b, was there any ever match by -- did you see any, either cast or photographs matching the black tennis shoes out there at the crimescene?
Ridge: No sir.
Price: And with the black tennis shoes, 51a and 51b, did you ever find shoe imprints at the crimescene, either by a cast or by photographs of the black tennis shoe prints?
Ridge: No sir.
Price: One moment, Your Honor.
(mumbling)
(pause)
Price: Detective Ridge, when after you did the cast of the shoe prints, did you ever size those to see what the size of shoe left that imprint?
Ridge: Those plaster casts were sent to the crime lab and they made any determinations they could from it.
Price: Ok. Did you ever get a report back from the crime lab as to what the shoe size is that those imprints were?
Ridge: No sir.
Price: Ok. And when the bodies were taken out of the water, were they placed directly on the ground initially?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Price: Ok. Nothing further, Your Honor.
Wadley: Detective, were you the officer in charge of checking the school records of Jason?
Ridge: No sir. I think I inquired at one time, but I wasn't in charge of that responsibility.
Wadley: Would you agree with me that on Wednesday, May the 5th, that Jason was in school that day?
Fogleman: Your Honor, I don't believe that's a proper question, but we will stipulate that the school records show that. Those records were obtained through prosecuting attorneys, Detective Ridge didn't have anything to do with that. But we will stipulate that he was in school.
Wadley: Did you uh - were you one of the officers or detectives who was assigned to uh - checking the bus logs from school records? Was that a part of your investigation?
Ridge: From the school records?
Wadley: Yes sir. Or from the school?
Ridge: I physically went to the - Lakeshore to watch the buses to see what time they dropped the children off.
Wadley: Were you one of the officers who gathered any of those bus records?
Ridge: Gathered records?
Wadley: Yes.
Ridge: I just logged down the time. I was the one that did it.
Wadley: Ok. Would you agree uh - that he rode the bus home - Jason, on Wednesday, May the 5th?
Ridge: I don't have any -
Wadley: You don't have any -
Ridge: I don't know that, no sir.
Wadley: Ok. Do you have anything to - anything that would disagree with that?
Ridge: Oh, no sir.
Wadley: Ok. Now, uh - the records - would you agree with me that the records on Thursday, May the 6th, show that Jason was at school - at Marion High School?
Ridge: Sir, I don't have any knowledge of it.
Wadley: If I told you that's what they were doing, would you have any reason -
Fogleman: Judge, that's not a proper question. If he wants to bring somebody's custodian school records up here to establish this, that's fine. But - or it's his -
The Court: He said he didn't know.
Wadley: Would you stipulate on that? That he was at Marion at school on Thursday. (mumbling)
Fogleman: I don't know when he caught the bus.
Wadley: You gonna stipulate on this?
Fogleman: I'll have to check.
Wadley: As a part of your investigation, would you agree that Jason was at home at 10pm on Wednesday night?
The Court: What time?
Wadley: 10pm on Wednesday night, May the 5th. Would you agree with that?
Ridge: I would have to check a report of a witness to know the time. I'm not exactly certain what time he said Jason arrived home that night.
Wadley: Well right now, you wouldn't disagree with that, would you?
Ridge: I couldn't disagree with it 'cause I don't have that information in front of me.
Wadley: Let's talk about your search of the area, when you were out in the area that you described to the jury, on May the 6th - that was Thursday, is that correct?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Ok. Now, did you do an arm to arm search? Were you lined up with officers, going over the area?
Ridge: Yes sir, are you wanting to know the date of that or are you talking about on the 6th?
Wadley: On the 6th.
Ridge: No sir, it didn't take place on the 6th.
Wadley: Ok. Well, tell me what you did on the 6th as far as gathering evidence.
Ridge: Well, up until it got dark, we were gathering evidence there at the crimescene. The last evidence that was gathered, that I'm aware of, is those plaster casts and you can tell from the picture that it was dark or getting very dark when we left.
Wadley: Ok. Now, the boys were found on May the 6th, is that correct?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: And on that day, what - tell me what you did as far as searching the area.
Ridge: The area of primary concern was the crimescene itself, that area surrounding where the bodies were found.
Wadley: Tell me what you did.
Ridge: I searched the ditch, I searched both banks, the -
Wadley: How did you search?
Ridge: How?
Wadley: How did you do that?
Ridge: Ok. You visually search. You look for everything, anything that may be of evidence. Uh - the ditch was drained out and the water was drained from that portion -
Wadley: When you were searching the area, were you just walking in a straight line or - tell me how you were doing that.
Ridge: Well, it's a confined area. It's not a large area that was searched at that particular time. That area, it was just everything visually found.
Wadley: Did you have other officers who were standing beside you - would ya'll go off searching together or how did you do that? Looking down when you walked or how did you do that?
Ridge: No sir, that didn't occur that day.
Wadley: Ok. Did it occur the next day?
Ridge: It occurred afterwards, uh - either the next day or the day after that it did occur.
Wadley: Ok. Well, tell me how that occurred.
Ridge: Ok. Went out there with all of the detective units and all of the narcotic units. We spread out, hand to hand arm length and we covered the entire area of Robinhood woods. Uh - that area east of that area all the way to the expressway, north of that area to the expressway, and both sides of that ditch in that area.
Wadley: So, you would have officers lined up -
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Side by side, correct?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: And y'all were walking, you know, and searching the whole area?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: And it's your testimony that y'all searched that entire area out there, is that right - in that manner?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Ok. And I would assume, and you would agree with me, that you - y'all were paying attention to detail - y'all were looking for anything that you could find, would that be fair to say?
Ridge: That was the instructions and that's what I was doing, yes sir.
Wadley: Because that would be important, wouldn't it, Detective? To try to find anything you could find out there.
Ridge: Yes sir, that's correct.
Wadley: On the 6th of May, how long did your uh - search last that day? How many hours?
Ridge: From the time the body was recovered at 1:30 until we left, which was probably 7:45 or 8:00 that night.
Wadley: So about 6 hours?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: That particular day.
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: And you, on that particular day, you were just looking at a very small area. Is that correct?
Ridge: That's correct.
Wadley: Ok. And on the 7th, how long did you search that day, in the manner which you already told us you searched?
Ridge: Probably took about 3 hours.
Wadley: And on the 7th - excuse me, the 8th, how many hours that day did you look?
Ridge: I'm not exactly sure which day it was. Uh - we went for several days there without sleep at night, we were - it was constant as the investigation was continuing. I'm not exactly sure which day that took place. Whether this grid search took place on the 7th or on the 8th.
Wadley: But it occurred within a couple of days after you found the bodies? Is that correct?
Ridge: Yes sir, that's correct.
Wadley: Let me ask you a different way. How many hours do you think you looked out there - looked in the manner you told the jury, how many hours do you think you spent out there looking?
Ridge: Uh - myself personally, probably 20 to 25 hours.
Wadley: And then there were other officers out there looking the same - with you, the same time - for the same amount of time, is that correct?
Ridge: That's correct.
Wadley: Ok. Now if you would, describe for me what your procedure is or was, when you were out there those few days - the day you found the bodies and those couple of days after - what was your procedure if you found something? Procedure in taking these items, describe how you would do that.
Ridge: Ok. Those items I seized, I took possession of 'em. If it was a small item, I placed it in some type of container.
Wadley: Was there anyone other than yourself that was taking possession of items?
Ridge: Uh. Yes sir, there were some other officers out there taking possession of items.
Wadley: On those days we're talking about?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: 6th, 7th, 8th.
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Who were those officers?
Ridge: Uh - Officer Charlie Dabbs, Officer Lt. Diane Hester, Officer Shane Griffith, Officer Tony Anderson, Officer Mike Allen -
Wadley: These officers that you are listing their names, these are officers who actually found something?
Ridge: They're officers who were all out there, um -
Wadley: My question was, were you the only officer who actually was in charge of taking possession of what was found?
Ridge: I took possession of it when some of those officers gave me that evidence. But they may have taken items at the scene -
Wadley: That you were unaware of?
Ridge: - and then they gave it to me.
Wadley: Ok. They - you're the one that was responsible for being in charge of gathering these items, is that correct?
Ridge: That's correct.
Wadley: Ok. So if someone found something, they were to bring it to you - is that correct?
Ridge: That's correct, yes sir. On almost all occassions.
Wadley: Ok. Now, the clothes that you have - we've already gone through these items in these bags - those were recovered on what day?
Ridge: On the 6th.
Wadley: Ok. Now, you got down in the water - is that correct?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: And were you the only one in the water when you were making this search?
Ridge: No sir. Uh - the photographs will reflect that Sgt. Allen was in the water with me.
Wadley: Were y'all together in the water - you described how you would bend down and reach - was he in the water with you?
Ridge: Uh - he was in the water, near the body as I was making my way to the body.
Wadley: And you were trying to make sure that you found everything in there, correct?
Ridge: That's exactly correct.
Wadley: As a matter of fact, I believe you testified that water was pumped out of there at a later time - all the water was pumped out, you sandbagged it and pumped everything out - is that correct?
Ridge: That's correct.
Wadley: And I don't recall if you said this on direct exam or a question by Mr. Price, but you were looking for anything obvious - anything that was obvious, that's what you were looking for, that type evidence. Is that correct?
Ridge: That's correct.
Wadley: What type shoes were you wearing, Detective, that day?
Ridge: Earlier in the day I had a pair of dress shoes on, at the crimescene I was wearing a pair of rubber boots.
Wadley: Ok. That's what you were wearing when you were in the water?
Ridge: Yes sir, correct.
Wadley: And would it be accurate to say that you - do you have long pants on?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Ok. Were your pants stuffed down in the rubber boots or were they on the outside?
Ridge: I'm not sure how they ended up, I believe they did end up with the pants outside the rubber boots.
Wadley: Your pants were muddy, correct?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Your shoes were muddy, correct?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: You took the clothes out - you described how you put the clothes, dripping wet, in the sacks - is that correct?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Now we've gone through and we've looked at all these sacks today - did you have a chance to look at all of these, Detective, as we were going through them?
Ridge: Yes sir, I did.
Wadley: And on any of the sacks that you looked at, did you see any water marks on any of these sacks?
Ridge: I don't visibly see any, no sir.
Wadley: See any dried mud on any of the sacks?
Ridge: No sir.
Wadley: Or any dried inside?
Ridge: On the inside?
Wadley: How do you explain that, Detective?
Ridge: I can't explain it.
Wadley: Now, you were walking in the water and - let me appraoch, Your Honor.
(paper crinkling)
Wadley: This is the stick that you found, is that correct?
Ridge: It's one of 'em, yes sir.
Wadley: And when you walked up to it, how was it in the water?
Ridge: It was stuck down in the water, in the bottom of the creek.
Wadley: Was it free standing?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: It was a free standing stick?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Could you see it? How deep was the water?
Ridge: The water in that particular area was just above my knees, probably 28 to 30 inches.
Wadley: Can you show for me how far it was sticking out of the water?
Ridge: Probably 10 to 12 inches.
Wadley: (assume indicating)
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: It was sticking out, and it was holding clothes down?
Ridge: It was holding a shirt that was wrapped around the end of the stick, yes sir.
Wadley: And describe for me how it was wrapped around the end.
Ridge: Well, it's in the photograph. Can you see the shirt is around the end of the stick.
Wadley: Is it twisted around?
Ridge: All I can say is the shirt was wrapped around the end of the stick.
Wadley: Did you actually have to remove it?
Ridge: Yes sir, I did.
Wadley: Was it stuck to it?
Ridge: I wouldn't say stuck to it, I mean, you just grab it and pull it off.
Wadley: It caused some force to take it off though?
Ridge: Very little force, yes sir.
Wadley: Ok. It just didn't fall off, did it?
Ridge: No sir.
Wadley: Ok. And this stick you saw was sticking out of the water, had a piece of clothing on it, what did you do with the stick when you saw it and you pulled it out - what did you do with that stick?
Ridge: Well first, I didn't pull it out of the mud. It became dislodged as I was making my way, I don't know if a wave was enough to knock it over or what, but it became dislodged and floated up.
Wadley: How far was you from this thing when it became dislodged and floated up?
Ridge: 3 or 4 foot.
Wadley: So when you were walking, could you see it ahead of you?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Were you making progress towards that stick?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Ok. And you saw it -
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: - and right before you got to it, it just came up?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Ok. So it comes up and you take it, then what do you do?
Ridge: Ok, I don't immediately remove it. Go ahead and remove the body.
Wadley: Ok. Ok. You removed the body?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: And the stick's floating in the water?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Tell me what happened when you first take the stick. When you -
Ridge: Taking pictures of the stick with the shirt wrapped around the end of it.
Wadley: Was the picture taken in the water or on the bank?
Ridge: You can see the picture, it's in the water.
Wadley: And then what did you do with the stick?
Ridge: Ok. I took the shirt off of it and laid the stick on the bank.
Wadley: Did you - did you look at the stick?
Ridge: Yes sir, I did.
Wadley: Did you examine the stick?
Ridge: I looked at it, yes sir.
Wadley: Did you study the stick?
Ridge: I looked at the stick, yes sir.
Wadley: And the reason you did that was because it's important - that was important, wasn't it, Detective?
Ridge: Yes sir, to see if anything was on the stick that may have been of importance.
Wadley: And did you find anything on it?
Ridge: No sir.
Wadley: Did you find any blood?
Ridge: Not that I saw.
Wadley: Did you find any skin?
Ridge: Not that I saw.
Wadley: Find any fingerprints?
Ridge: No sir.
Wadley: Ok. Ofcourse you're not equipped out there to run those kind of tests, are you Detective?
Ridge: No sir.
Wadley: And then what did you do with the stick?
Ridge: Laid it on the bank.
Wadley: Where did you lay it on the bank?
Ridge: On the east bank.
Wadley: Now, when you were out there and you laid it on the bank, did you make any markings on the stick?
Ridge: No sir.
Wadley: Put your initials on it?
Ridge: No sir.
Wadley: I found the stick when it floated up with clothes on it, didn't make any markings like that - did you?
Ridge: I didn't make any markings, no sir.
Wadley: You recovered this stick, is that correct?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: On that stick, did you inspect it?
Ridge: Yes sir, I did.
Wadley: Did you look at it?
Ridge: Yes sir, I did.
Wadley: Did you look at that stick as long as you looked at that stick?
Ridge: I looked at both sticks, yes sir.
Wadley: That stick was just floating in the water too, wasn't it?
Ridge: That's correct.
Wadley: That stick didn't have any clothes attached to it, did it?
Ridge: No sir.
Wadley: Let me ask you - you've testified at length about this - I'm gonna use your words, "this slicked off area" - let's talk about this "slicked off area" for a minute. Help me - when you say "slicked off", what do you mean by that?
Ridge: An absence of leaves as the surrounding area had, scuff marks, the grass was bent over, mud on the top of it.
Wadley: Ok. Let's go down one by one.
Ridge: Ok sir.
Wadley: When you say "slicked off", that means to you an absence of leaves?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Correct - ok. What type leaves are we talking about?
Ridge: Residual leaves from the trees from the previous fall or whatever vegetation would have been in that area.
Wadley: Ok. Dead leaves?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: What else does it mean to ya?
Ridge: Well, it's in the spring. Green leaves normally fall and you'll see green leaves on the ground. That's a common finding. They were not the same green leaves rather than dead leaves.
Wadley: No green leaves falling?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Leaves that are alive falling?
Ridge: Yes sir, that's correct. That does occur.
Wadley: Ok. What else?
Ridge: Scuff marks.
Wadley: Scuff marks - you mean "slicked off", is that what you're saying?
Ridge: That's a term that could be used, yes sir.
Wadley: Describe the scuff marks.
Ridge: Looks as though somebody may have taken their hand and rubbed the bank.
Wadley: Detective, were you out in this area on May the 1st?
Ridge: May the 1st?
Wadley: Yes sir.
Ridge: I don't think it was May the 1st that I was there.
Wadley: Were you out there on May the 2nd?
Ridge: No sir.
Wadley: Were you out there on May the 3rd?
Ridge: No sir.
Wadley: Were you out there on May the 4th?
Ridge: No sir.
Wadley: Were you out there on May the 5th?
Ridge: No sir.
Wadley: You don't know what the condition of that area was on those days, do you?
Ridge: On those days, no sir.
Wadley: And when you say it looks like someone - when you're out there making your observation on the 6th, is that correct?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: And you're giving this definition of "slicked off", correct?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: You're just speculating on that, aren't you?
Ridge: I'm describing the area as I saw it, yes sir.
Wadley: You're just speculating about that, aren't you Detective?
Ridge: I'm describing the area as I saw it.
Wadley: When you say it looked like someone had taken their hand and pulled it down, you're speculating on that - aren't you?
Ridge: You asked me what it looked like and I told you, sir.
Wadley: You weren't out there before that, were you?
Ridge: Yes sir, I was out there about a month previous to that.
Wadley: Were you out there on the 1st?
Ridge: No sir.
Wadley: 2nd?
Ridge: No sir.
Wadley: What I'm asking you Detective, is are you telling this jury that someone scraped it off based on your observations out here on the 6th? Is that what you're telling this jury?
Ridge: That's the way it appeared to me, yes sir.
Wadley: Is that what you're telling this jury?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Now you're aware that - I would assume, that one of the boys bled to death out there - is that correct?
Ridge: That's my understanding from a report from the crime lab.
Wadley: One of them bled to death.
Ridge: That's my understanding.
Wadley: Ok. Now, if one of the boys - strike that, your Honor. If the area was slicked off as you say it was - that you saw it, the blood was slicked off, you didn't find any blood of any kind there - did you?
Ridge: No sir, I did not find any blood.
Wadley: Not a drop of blood, correct?
Ridge: That's correct.
Wadley: Where this was "slicked off".
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: And you checked that very carefully didn't you, Detective?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: You were looking for anything you could find on that ground, correct?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: And you didn't see not one thing, did you?
Ridge: One thing?
Wadley: You didn't see any blood -
Ridge: no sir, I didn't find any blood.
Wadley: Not a drop?
Ridge: No sir.
Wadley: Now let's assume if there had been - there would be partial debris on that area that you described to me, would you expect that some blood might have missed some of the twigs or some of the leaves, and soaked down into the ground?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: You would expect that, wouldn't you?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: But again, you didn't find a drop of blood?
Ridge: I did not find anything.
Wadley: I believe you also testified that there were a number of twigs and leaves and debris that was further down in the water, is that correct?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Ok. Did you take possession of any of those twigs or leaves or debris for testing?
Ridge: No sir.
Wadley: You gather any of those up at all?
Ridge: No sir.
Wadley: You just left 'em out there, right?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Just like you left this stick, correct?
Ridge: That's correct.
Wadley: Were there any items that you - were there any other items that you found out there which uh - you did not send off for testing?
Ridge: These items that were recovered by the metal detector search.
Wadley: I'm asking you Detective, were there any other items out there -
Ridge: That's what I said, the items that were recovered by the metal detector search.
Wadley: And what were they?
Ridge: Uh - rusted nails, uh - aluminum cans, small pieces of metal wire that were under the mud.
Wadley: Did you find any disposable razors out there?
Ridge: No sir.
Wadley: You didn't find any of those?
Ridge: No sir, I didn't.
Wadley: And noone with the West Memphis Police Department or noone investigating this, did anybody find any of that out there?
Ridge: Now you're talking about out at the crimescene itself?
Wadley: I'm talking about out at the area in Robinhood woods where y'all searched, lined up, arm to arm and searching - did y'all find anything like that?
Ridge: Not in that area, no sir.
Wadley: Did you find a razor?
Ridge: I think a razor was included in a package of clothing that was found away from that area.
Wadley: Where was it found?
Ridge: Across the pipe on the south side of the Ten Mile Bayou.
Wadley: Was that sent off for testing?
Ridge: Yes sir, it was.
Wadley: It was?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Where was it sent to?
Ridge: Arkansas State Crime Lab.
Wadley: You sure about that?
Ridge: Best of my knowledge, yes sir. I can check the records.
Wadley: But you're telling us right now, that's what happened?
Ridge: Yes sir.
The Court: You gonna be much longer? Time for a recess.
Wadley: That'll be fine, Judge. That'll be fine.
The Court: Alright ladies and gentlemen, you may stand in recess with the usual admonition not to discuss the case, for ten minutes.
(return to open court)
The Court: (mumbling about feedback)
Wadley: Detective, let me move to one other area I'd like to talk with you about. As a part of one of your duties, uh - in investigating this matter, did you knock on doors in the neighborhood in the vicinity of Robinhood - go house to house, checking houses, checking vacant houses in that area? Is that something that you did?
Ridge: I, on one night, assisted in a neighborhood survey of that area - yes sir.
Wadley: What night was that?
Ridge: I would have to check my records.
Wadley: Could you do that?
Ridge: Can I stand down, Your Honor?
The Court: Yes, yes.
(whispering)
Ridge: Yes sir, do you wanna know the date?
Wadley: Yes, please.
Ridge: 5 -13 of '93.
Wadley: Ok. And uh - prior to that date - prior to the 13th -
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Let's say as of, uh - May the 6th, did you have knowledge that there was vacant houses in that area - in that subdivision area, you had knowledge to that - didn't you?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Ok. And the crimescene - or the place where the bodies were found, that's in close proximity - is it not, to truckstops?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: How far away is that?
Ridge: To the fence in the back of the 76 truckstop, an estimate would be 100 yards. 150 yards.
Wadley: And there was a truck wash, correct?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: How far is that away? From where they were found?
Ridge: To the truckstop itself or to the truckstop property?
Wadley: To the truckstop property.
Ridge: Probably 50 yards.
Wadley: And then to the truckstop itself?
Ridge: Another 50 - 75 yards.
Fogleman: Your Honor, I got a little confused there. The same truckstop or the truck wash? I'm not sure which one they're talking about.
Wadley: That's what I had asked. Well, answer this way Detective.
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Let's talk about the truckstop.
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: To the actual truckstop itself, how far is it from where the bodies were found?
Ridge: 250 to 300 yards.
Wadley: And then there is a truck wash, is that correct?
Ridge: Yes sir, there is.
Wadley: How far away is that from where the boys were found?
Ridge: Truck wash, 100 yards.
Wadley: Were you, uh - was one of your duties to make inquiry into fuel logs of truckers?
Ridge: That's not one of my duties -
(talking over)
Wadley: That's not one of your duties?
Ridge: I know that was performed by -
(still talking over)
Wadley: It must have been done at that time, wasn't it?
Ridge: That's correct.
Wadley: That's all I have of this witness at this time, Your Honor.
The Court: Anything else?
Fogleman: I've lost track Your Honor, is it my turn?
The Court: I've lost track. Y'all said y'all were gonna be through with this witness in 30 minutes, yesterday.
(courtroom laughter)
Davidson: I just have one question, I can ask from here. They said that, Your Honor.
The Court: Go ahead.
Davidson: Unless I missed some things.
The Court: No, you didn't miss anything worth wild.
Davidson: Detective, as of the 6th day of May 1993, Thursday -
Ridge: Yes sir.
Davidson: There was not a fence between the truck wash and the area where the boys were found, is that correct?
Ridge: On that date, there did not exist a fence - yes sir.
Davidson: Thank you, Detective.
The Court: Alright, it's your turn.
Fogleman: Thank you, Your Honor Judge.
(paper crinkling)
Fogleman: Detective Ridge, we're not gonna go through everyone of these sacks again, but would you take that sack, take the shirt out, and would you look in the bottom of that sack and tell me what you see?
Ridge: Dried mud.
(mumbling)
Fogleman: You can put it back in. First let me go ahead and show Mr. Wadley. You can look at state's exhibit 48 -
(crinkling)
Fogleman: What do you see in the bottom of that sack?
Ridge: Again, dried mud.
Fogleman: Pardon?
Ridge: Dried mud.
(crinkling)
(mumbling)
(heavy crinkling)
(more mumbling)
Fogleman: One of the defense attorneys and I don't remember which one, asked you if anyone's prints - if any prints - can't remember if this alleged fingerprint, toeprint, footprint, whatever it was - if that matched with anyone connected with the case, uh - somebody asked you that. Did that print match with anybody, that you know of, in the whole world?
Ridge: Not that I know of, no sir.
Fogleman: Alright. Now in these - in regard to these - what we talked about as footprints, were those shoe prints or barefoot prints?
Ridge: They appeared to be shoe prints.
Fogleman: Alright. In that whole area that y'all searched, not only your visual search on the 5th but in your - on the 6th, but in your grid search later, uh - did you find any other shoe prints besides those 2 shoe prints?
Ridge: No sir.
Fogleman: Alright. Now when you first went there to those woods on May the 6th, about what time was that again?
Ridge: Approximately 1:30 in the afternoon.
Fogleman: I'm talking about the first time that day.
Ridge: Oh, at 7:45 in the morning.
Fogleman: Alright, and somebody was there in the woods?
Ridge: Yes sir, 4 people in that immediate area.
Fogleman: Alright, 4 people. Where were the 4 people?
Ridge: Ok. At the dead end of McAuley, before you cross the pipe, I met Steve Branch. The father of Stevie Branch.
Fogleman: (talking over) Talking about Mr. Branch, Stevie Branch's father?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: Alright. And then, who else?
Ridge: When I crossed the creek, I found the bicycle and the young men that's out in the woods, hollering, searching.
Fogleman: Alright.
Ridge: Then when I looked to the east into that field that's on the east side of this little ditch, uh - there are 2 young men hollering, searching.
Fogleman: Now if you would, on state's exhibit 13, take my pen and if you could - mark first the location where you first saw uh - this young man that you saw in the wooded area.
Ridge: Ok. Can I lay it down for just a second? I was in this area, he was -
Fogleman: Put your initials uh - by the -
Ridge: This 'X' is for me, I'll put 'ABR' there - that's my initials. And the young man that I saw was straight out toward the expressway from me in the woods, out here.
Fogleman: Put a 'YM' for young man. Alright. And where were the other 2 people?
Ridge: Uh - in this area, down in this direction.
Fogleman: Alright. Close to the treeline?
Ridge: Close to the ditch, yes sir.
Fogleman: But in the field?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: Alright. Would you put, towards the edge there, a couple of 'Xs' there?
Ridge: A couple of circles?
Fogleman: That'd be fine.
Ridge: I'll put circles and 2 unknown.
Fogleman: Ok.
Ridge: 'UK' on that.
Fogleman: Alright.
(pause)
Fogleman: When Michael Moore, Stevie Branch, and Chris Byers were removed from the water, uh - when they were first pulled from the water, did you observe any blood?
Ridge: Immediately upon coming out of the water, there was no blood.
Fogleman: Alright. And after they had been out of the water a short period of time, what did you observe?
Ridge: Water would start coming out from the wounds of the victims.
Fogleman: You say what would come out?
Ridge: Blood would come out.
Fogleman: Ok.
Ridge: From the wounds of the victims.
Fogleman: Alright. And was that on each one of the three?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: Alright. Ok. Now if you know, what affect does water have on the ability to locate blood, fingerprints, and that kind of item?
Davidson: Your Honor, I'm gonna object - unless he lays some foundation, that this witness is incapable to give an opinion on that question.
The Court: Well, from your experience and training, do you know what affect water has on blood?
Ridge: Yes sir, I do.
The Court: Anything else?
(pause)
The Court: Alright, you may proceed.
Fogleman: Ok. If you would, answer the question.
Ridge: Blood would be washed away by water.
Fogleman: Now, Mr. Wadley asked you about checking fuel logs?
Ridge: Yes sir.
Fogleman: Uh - what, um - were you checking any and all possibilities?
Ridge: That's correct, yes sir.
Fogleman: I don't have any further questions, Your Honor.
Price: No further questions at this time, Your Honor.
Wadley: Detective, is what you mean - when blood is in water, it can be diluted. That's what you mean by that, is that what you're saying?
Ridge: That's correct, yes sir.
Wadley: In water and blood, blood can be diluted.
Ridge: That's correct.
Wadley: That's what you meant by that response to his question, correct?
Ridge: That's correct.
Wadley: You were shown 2 sacks of a number here.
Ridge: Yes sir.
Wadley: Do you see any water spots on any of these sacks, Detective?
Ridge: No sir.
(WITNESS EXCUSED)