THE COURT: Alright, ladies and Gentlemen, the Court is going to give you a similar cautionary instruction. You are about to receive evidence or testimony with regard to occultism, cultism, satanic affairs and you are instructed and told that that testimony is to be considered only and solely for the limited purpose of establishing motive, intent, scheme or design. Alright, you may proceed.

MR FOGLEMAN: Thank you, your Honor.

DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. FOGLEMAN:

Q: Would you state you name and occupation for the jury?

A: Dale W. Griffis, Tiffin, Ohio. I'm a consultant.

Q: Alright. And what type of consultant are you?

A: I consult to criminal justice educators, mental health people, in the area of nontraditional groups.

Q: Are you married?

A: Yes. Married 35 years, have 3 children.

Q: Are they adult children?

A: Yes they are. One is a photographer with paper, another one operates a wholesale flower business, and my son is in the construction engineer.

Q: Now, prior to becoming a consultant, what was your work background?

A: I was 26 years with the Tiffin, Ohio Police Department at which time I was retired out as a captain and second in command of the Police Department.

Q: And during the course of that 26 years with the Tiffin, Ohio Police Department, were there periods -- short periods of time where you went and worked with other law enforcement agencies?

A: Yes there was.

Q: Alright.

A: I worked L.A. Police Department for 2 weeks, San Francisco 2 weeks, and since that time I worked with other agencies for a limited time.

Q: And in the course of those 2 weeks stints with the Los Angeles Police Department and San Francisco Police Department, what area did you work in?

A: In the area cults and nontraditional groups, occult groups.

Q: And what is your educational background?

A: I graduated from high school, have associate degree in police science, a bachelor's degree in psychology, master's degree in criminal justice and a dissertation in criminal justice.

Q: And the master's degree in criminal justice and where you did your dissertation, where were those from?

A: Columbia Pacific University in San Rafael, California.

Q: Alright. And what type of school is that?

A: It is a educational facility, or basically a school without walls.

Q: A what?

A: School without walls.

Q: Alright, what is a school without walls?

A: You can take your training and education wherever.

Q: Okay. Was much of the work by correspondence?

A: And phone, fax.

Q: Now, when did you start the course work at Columbia Pacific University, approximately?

A: 'Bout 1980.

Q: Okay. And, was that -- did that course work have some relationship to nontraditional group activity.

A: My master's work was working in the intelligence work with small agencies and my doctoral dissertation was on mind control cults and the effects on the objectives of law enforcement.

Q: Alright now, when did you develop this in-Christian, the nontraditional -- first of all, define for the jury what nontraditional groups are.

A: They're -- I specifically teach people to look at groups, group behaviour, group activities from a malevolent side. Everybody has got the right to believe whatever they wish. And, I teach them to look at these groups for what they are, whether it be a c-u-l-t or an occult group or a gang member or a type of cult that causes malevolent -- has malevolent tendencies to it.

Q: Alright. And what are malevolent tendencies?

A: Bad. Break the law.

Q: Okay. And, when did you develop this interest in studying nontraditional group activities?

A: About 1967, 68, when we started seeing some of these groups that were cause orientated on the campuses raising some havoc.

Q: And after developing this interest did you contact schools with walls to try to pursue that study?

A: I was going through those type of schools until 1976, uh --

Q: What do your mean youíre --

A: I was going through Terra Technical College in Fremont, Ohio, and then I graduated with a degree in psychology from Heidelburg College.

Q: Alright. And after that, did you also seek to pursue a course of study at a school with walls?

A: Yeah, I ran into a case in 1976 I -- threw me for a loop. And done -- I went out, tried to get the lateral transfers went out did some studies, realize that wasn't work. Then yes sir, I did go to schools with walls to get additional help.

Q: Alright, and were -- did those schools with walls, did they offer the type of studies in this nontraditional group activity?

A: No sir.

Q: Now, if you could, if you could explain a little bit about your background and law enforcement experience that relates to the nontraditional group area or cult area.

A: Well, I started, like I said, in the late 60's working cause-orientated groups. These are groups that have a purpose or a design or have some interest they are out there to further them.

Q: Can you give us an example?

A: Yes. The Students United for Freedom and Peace, those things that we commonly saw on the campuses.

Q: This was back in the 60ís?

A: Yes sir, it was.

Q: Okay. And what other experience did you have with the nontraditional groups, or occult?

A: Well, I come from a small town in Ohio, and we started hearing cases involving some cults, c-u-l-t-s. And I started checking on that. I thoroughly was unbelieved why people would leave home to give up their money and so forth. It became an interest to me and I looked into it, delved into it, studied it, anything that I could get a hold of.

Q: And as a result of those interests that you developed, have you also, for instance when you were in Los Angeles and San Francisco did you further that interest?

A: Yes thatís all I worked wise. I was on the streets working, I tried to be proselytized by these groups, see how they worked, see what their sales pitch was. I went to the American Church of Satan, I went to --

Q: When you say you went to Ė- you saying you were you a member?

A: No, no, I went to where they held their meetings and looked at how their rooms were set up. I went to their book stores. At that time I didn't know what a book of shadows was. Learned right from the street on up what the different groups was. Went to -- worked with police officers, a female police officer I respect her very much and she helped me a lot.

Q: And did you also interview people involved in this activity?

A: Over the years, yes sir I did. Also when I was doing my dissertation. At the school I attended they had what we call an ISP or independent study project. And, I had to -- part of my dissertation was the results of that review. I talked to close to 500 of them.

Q: How many?

A: About 500.

Q: Okay. 500?

A: Yes sir.

Q: Okay. Now, at the present time, approximately how many calls per week do you receive in regard to nontraditional groups?

A: About 65, averagely.

Q: And of those 65 calls, approximately -- what percentage is related to Satanism?

A: About 80 percent.

Q: Have you previously qualified as expert in both state and federal court?

A: Yes sir, I have.

MR. FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, we would submit Mr. Griffis at this time as an expert.

VOIR DIRE EXAMINATION

BY MR. FORD:

Q: Mr. Griffis, Columbia Pacific University, is that where you went to school?

A: Yes sir, that's what I testified to.

Q: And that's basically a mail-order college, isn't it? Where you can send in information and get a degree. Isn't that what it is?

A: No sir. I don't understand that -- that's not how that place works.

Q: It's not how -- in other words, so this little flier that I have from Columbia Pacific University about business reply, mail send it in or how to get a, how to get a degree, that's not where you went? Is that where you went to -- is that where you went to college?

A: Yes it was but I don't think that was the question, yes sir.

Q: Okay. How many -- tell the jury what classes you attended -- let's back up just a second. What year did you graduate from high school?

A: 1955.

Q: Okay. And when did you go to college?

A: First time I went to college was 1956.

Q: 1956. And where did you go to college in 1956?

A: At Delbert College associated with Western Missouri.

Q: Did you ever get a degree there?

A: No sir.

Q: Okay. Did you ever -- I think you indicated you said you got a technical degree from a community college?

A: Yes sir.

Q: Okay, and when did you get that degree?

A: It was 1974, 1975.

Q: And what was that degree in?

A: Associate degree in police science.

Q: An associate degree?

A: Yes sir.

Q: Okay. And did you have to go to classes?

A: Oh yes.

Q: And take tests?

A: Yes sir.

Q: And get a report card or grades?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. And have a transcript?

A: Yes sir.

Q: Okay. Now, did you later go to a 4 year college?

A: Yes sir.

Q: And when did you go to a 4 year college?

A: I started -- actually I was going to both of them at the same time, counselor.

Q: Okay. Were you working at all?

A: Yeah, I certainly was.

Q: Okay, so you were -- where were you working?

A: I was -- I was working at the Tiffin Police Department, I believe at the rank of lieutenant at that time.

Q: Okay. So you were a full-time police officer and enrolled as a full time college student in two different colleges?

A: Yes sir.

Q: And when did you -- you got two degrees. One in a technical college and one a 4 year degree, is that correct?

A: Yes sir.

Q: And that was a B.A.?

A: Magna Cum Laude, yes sir.

Q: Okay. And what year was that?

A: 76.

Q: Okay. Now, when you went and got that B.A. degree did you have to go to classes?

A: Yes sir.

Q: And have professors?

A: Yes sir.

Q: And take tests?

A: Yes sir.

Q: And get grades?

A: Yes sir.

Q: And have a transcript?

A: Yes sir.

Q: Now, when you went out to this mail-order college, Columbia Pacific University, what classes did you take?

A: No classes.

Q: What -- did you take tests?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay. What tests did you take?

A: Predominantly written.

Q: Okay.

A: Objective questions.

Q: Okay. And, while you were enrolled at this college in California, where did you live?

A: In Tiffin.

Q: In Tiffin, Ohio?

A: Yes sir.

Q: Okay. And you took no classes? Had no professors?

A: Oh yes, I didn't say that. You didn't ask that question.

Q: Okay. But no classes?

A: No classes.

Q: No classes, okay. And, when did you start in school there?

A: Around 1980, sir.

Q: 1980. And you go a Master's Degree -- that's what you told us --

A: Yes sir.

Q: -- you got a Master's Degree.

A: Yes sir.

Q: And how long did it take you without taking classes to get that Master's Degree.

A: 2 years.

Q: Okay.

A: It was a combined master/doctoral program, the total program lasted 3 years.

Q: 3 years?

A: Yes sir.

Q: So in 3 years you got a Master's and a Ph.D?

A: Yes sir.

Q And didn't go to class?

A: I was at the campus a couple of times, but I did not attend classes, sir.

Q: They don't have classes at this campus, do they?

A: No sir.

Q: I think you told Mr. Fogleman that other schools don't offer classes like this. Are you telling us Harvard, and Stanford, Ohio State, Michigan State, they don't offer classes that deal with the psychology of nontraditional groups? Is that what you're telling this jury that you can't go to those schools and study this kind of stuff?

A: Counselor, this was 1980, at that period of time --

Q: 1980?

A: -- the answer to that is no -- cause I went to --

Q: In 1980?

A: I went and asked for them, yes sir.

Q: In 1980 you couldn't go to Stanford or Michigan State and take a class on the psychology of nontraditional groups? Is that what you're telling us?

A: Not in work and not continue, no sir.

Q: Not if you were gonna continue to be a full-time cop?

A: Police officer.

Q: Well. Right? The only way you could -- you're not saying that these courses weren't offered there, you're just saying --

A: To my --

Q: -- offered without -- you had to go to class to get a degree there, wouldn't you?

A: I went to Bowling Green, Toledo University, Marion campus Ohio State, the campus at Bowling Green up by the islands, Ohio State and Ohio University, I could not even get a weekend program.

Q: Could you get a full-time program?

A: Not in the area I wanted, no sir.

Q: So you could not -- you're telling us you could not go to school, and go to class, and get a degree in this type of subject. You had to go to this kind of college?

A: Not at this time. You cannot (unintelligible).

Q: Okay. Now, this lateral transfer, you were in L.A. and San Francisco for 2 weeks? Is that right?

A: Each -- yes sir.

Q: 2 weeks?

A: Yes sir.

Q: Okay. Now these 65 to 75 calls that you say, and 80 percent relate to satanism, those are just suspicions, aren't they? They're not things you actually follow up on, are they?

A: Yes I do.

Q: You follow up on every one of these 65 calls a week?

A: I give information out and/or give them people in their area to follow up with.

Q: Okay. Is this your full-time job? Is this all you do for a living?

A: Do consulting work?

Q: With police departments.

A: Not with just police departments, sir. I testified earlier -- with mental health educators, and besides doing a consulting (?), I do give lectures, sir.

Q: But it's all in this area, isn't it?

A: Yes sir.

Q: You derive all your living from going around spreading satanic panic, don't you?

A: Absolutely not, sir.

Q: Now, where have you -- how many criminal trials have you testified in?

A: Criminal trials?

Q: How many criminal trials have you testified in?

A: A couple hundred.

Q: You've testified in a couple hundred criminal trials. How many of those couple of hundred criminal trials have you testified in as an expert in satanic activities?

A: One.

Q: One. And where was that?

A: Michigan.

Q: And what was the name of the person who was on trial?

A: I told you earlier I don't remember his name.

Q: You don't remember his name.

A: His first name is Jeff and he is in Ionia State Prison.

Q: When was it?

A: About 1987.

Q: 1987. And you think because you testified in one trial you're an expert?

A: I've testified in hundreds of trials, sir.

Q: But not relating to cult activities, you did all that when you were a police officer, didn't you? When you were on the beat, making arrests. But as an expert in this field, you've only done it one time, is that right? One time? Is that your answer?

A: No, I've testified three times as an expert.

Q: In criminal trials?

A: That wasn't a question, sir.

Q: Yes it was. In a criminal trial --

MR. DAVIS: Your Honor, Mr. Ford asks the question and then when he starts to get the response, he changes his question. We would object and let the witness have an opportunity to answer.

THE COURT: Let him answer the question.

Q: My question is doctor, how many --

MR. DAVIS: Your Honor. Let me enter my objection. His question has already been asked. The question was, how many times have you testified as an expert in the occult, and I think the witness should be allowed to answer that question before Mr. Ford interposes another one.

MR. FORD: If I asked that question, your Honor, let him answer it. I thought I asked him in criminal trials. But -- that's alright. How many times have you -- you've been in business for how many years as a consultant?

A: Since 1986.

Q: 86, okay. And you testified how many times as an expert on this stuff?

A: Three times.

Q: And how many of those were criminal?

A: Once.

Q: And you think that qualifies you as an expert?

A: That's up to the Court.

Q: You think you're an expert?

A: I know what I'm talking about.

Q: Do you think you're an expert?

A: I never held -- I've don't hold myself out as a -- I know a lot about the topic, yes sir.

Q: That's not my question. Do you think you're an expert?

MR. FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, the question has been asked and answered.

MR. FORD: No, he didn't. He didn't answer it. He said he knew a lot about the subject. I want to know does he think he's an expert.

Q: Do you?

A: Yes.

THE COURT: Anything else?

MR. PRICE: No questions at this time.

THE COURT: All right, you may proceed.

MR. FORD: We submit he's not an expert. We would object to his opinions on that basis.

THE COURT: I have already ruled in that regard. You may continue. Let's take a short recess first.

(RECESS)

(RETURN TO OPEN COURT)

MR. FOGLEMAN: Thank you, your Honor.

CONTINUED DIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. FOGLEMAN:

Q: At my request, have you reviewed autopsy reports for Stevie Branch, Chris Byers and Michael Moore?

A: Yes.

Q: And have you reviewed autopsy photographs?

A: Yes I have.

Q: Have you also reviewed some crime scene photographs?

A: Yes I have.

Q: Based on those items that you reviewed and if you assume that the testimony showed that the defendant Jason Baldwin sucked the blood from the penis of one of the victims, that it occurred on -- that this crime occurred on the May 5th or 6th of 1993, that there was a full moon and that there was the absence of evidence of blood at --

THE COURT: Just a minute, Mr. Fogleman. If I hear any more whispering out in the audience somebody's gonna get it. I can hear audible talk and I don't wanna hear it. Alright, go ahead.

Q: And there was absence of evidence of blood at the scene. Based on those factors and the information that you reviewed, do you have an opinion as to whether or not the murder of Michael Moore, Stevie Branch and Chris Byers is occult inspired or the occult is involved?

A: They're -- using those items, yes.

Q: Alright, and what is that opinion?

A: That they were using the trappings of occultism during this event.

Q: And what do you mean "the trappings of occultism"?

A: Well, you've got dates, time of the moon phase, you have the removal of blood. And uh -- I think it was --

Q: Start with -- on the date, what effect -- what relation does the date have?

A: Occultists -- when we are discussing this in general like any other religious groups have certain holidays that they worship. Walpersnaucht is on April 30th, Beltane is on May 1st and then it --

Q: Okay now, let's -- April the 30th is what now?

THE COURT: Wait a minute. The jury seems to have a hard time hearing anything.

MR. FOGLEMAN: Can you lean --

(mumbling)

THE COURT: Pardon?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Needs to be closer to him.

MR. FOGLEMAN: The grey one.

THE WITNESS: This one here?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.

THE COURT: Yeah.

THE WITNESS: Okay. Thank you.

MR. FOGLEMAN: Alright.

THE WITNESS: Sorry.

Q: Alright, April the 30th --

A: Yes.

Q: -- is what now?

A: Walpersnaucht. It's based at the changing of the seasons.

Q: Okay, and --

A: Beltane is May 1st, it's a fire festival.

Q: It's a what?

A: Fire festival.

Q: Fire festival?

A: Fire festival.

Q: Alright. In what group is that a holiday?

A: Generally, in occultism it's used by both pagan and satanic beliefs.

Q: Alright. Now, while we're talking about it, can you define what we mean when we say the occult, occult?

A: Sure. Occult is like an esoteric secret science religion. And there are different types to it. There's paganism, which is white witchcraft, and there's satanism which is black witchcraft. Some shamanism has been put in there which is Indian folklore occultism. They go back in the area of paganism prior to Christianity.

Q: Now, does the manner in which the children were tied, does that have any effect? Or any significance?

A: I noticed they were in tied in what I would refer to in a display fashion. In other words, their ankles were tied to their wrists, exposing their genitalia, and they would either put them on their face or on their back.

Q: And, what -- do the types of injuries have significance?

A: The -- predominantly there was the removal of sex organs. And some books on occultism they will talk about sex organs, removal of the testicles for the semen, a group called Crytos.

Q: Crytos?

A: Yes, c-r-y-t-o-s. There are --

Q: Okay. Do occult cults -- is torture done by occult cults?

A: Not in a -- as part of a -- I would like for them to understand the difference between traditional occult groups and occult cult groups.

Q: Okay.

A: I think that would be better if I can put that in there. Traditional occultists follow rules set out by various prescribed manuals for services and so forth. An occult cult group usually follows that of the leader, and -- it could be anything.

Q: Alright, in occult cults, are you saying they kind of make their own rules?

A: Yes sir.

Q: Do the fact of the manner in which the types of injuries in the sense of the variety of injuries have significance in your opinion? As far as the head injuries to one, plus injuries to the face in regard to the --

A: No.

MR. FORD: Your Honor, I object to leading questions. I ask that he ask direct questions instead of supplying the answers for this witness.

THE COURT: Avoid leading.

MR. FORD: Is that a -- you sustain my objection?

THE COURT: Yes.

Q: What, if any, significance is -- place to the presence of water?

A: Usually water is there to wash up with up. In some cases of traditional occult groups it is there to do baptism, just as well in Christianity.

Q: What significance, if any, is there to the sucking of blood?

A: Blood is the life force. And usually they will take -- they prefer to have a child that is young, very young, and the younger, the more innocent, the better the life force.

Q: What significance, if any, is to the absence of evidence of blood at the scene?

A: I'm not sure how to answer that -- they could either do -- in occultism they will take it, and store it, they will use it to bathe in, they will use it to drink.

Q: What was the -- what you said a minute ago about the drinking of the blood? What was that supposed to do?

A: Give power, life force, transference of life force.

Q: Now, is there -- in occultism is there any significance to right hand, left hand, or right side, left side?

A: In satanism, yes.

Q: Alright, and what significance is that, in any?

A: Right hand -- they usually take the midline of the body right down the straight and they will refer to the right hand path as that for Christianity. Left hand path would be for satanism.

Q: Now, in actual practice are there attempts to classify the persons who are involved in occultism into different categories to the extent of which they are practicing occult behaviour?

A: In cases where there is suspected criminal activity we would look at the various levels or for classification. For example, we could have a follower, a leader, a traditional member, we could have a victim.

Q: What is considered a traditional -- what is considered a traditional member?

A: Traditional member would be somebody who belongs to a satanic church which is recognized in the state where they have filed corporation papers or are following traditional satanic beliefs --

Q: Alright. Now --

A: -- such as the American Church of Satan.

Q: Who founded that church?

A: Anton Sandor LaVey.

Q: LaVey?

A: Yes sir.

Q: Alright.

A: Walpersnaucht 1966.

Q: Alright. It was established on Walpersnaucht?

A: Yes sir.

Q: Alright. And, what type -- are you familiar with any of the books that he's written?

A: Yes sir.

Q: What are some of those?

A: He wrote The Satanic Bible, Satanic Ritual Book, and The Complete Witch.

Q: And are those white witchcraft or black witchcraft?

A: Those are black witchcraft.

Q: Now, do you have something called a self-styled satanist?

A: Yes, those are -- that boils down, counselor, with the different types of groups.

Q: Okay.

A: Which would start out with an experimenter, usually one who practices alone in an unorganized manner, a self-styled occultist and we are talking here only in the field of satanism. And this person has some kind of problems in life and they use the trappings of occultism to get along. Then we have an occult cult group, and this has a little charismatic leader and some followers. Sometimes they got a name for their group, sometimes they don't have a name for their group. But they use -- all three of those use the trappings of occultism. And then you have a traditional church that uses the traditional books on occultism.

Q: Now, do you -- in looking at young people involved in the occult, do you see any particular type of dress or jewelry or body markings, anything like that?

A: The ones using the trappings?

Q: Yes.

A: Yes.

Q: Alright. And what type of things do you see?

A: I have personally observed people wearing black fingernails, having their hair painted black, wearing black t-shirts, black dungarees, or that type of thing. Sometimes they will tattoo themselves. Either -- it starts out sometimes just with ink. And because they don't know the -- you know, everything liable put on the left as well as the right. Then they will use some earrings which have occult symbols on them, that you can buy through mail-order houses.

Q: In regard to the tattoos, is there any particular area of the hand where tattoos might be?

A: Two places. One would be on the middle finger of the left hand, and often times will be Ė- sometimes -- like I said, at what levels -- but in the web here of the hand.

Q: Between the thumb and the index finger?

A: Yes sir, right there.

Q: Of the left hand --

A: Yes sir.

Q: -- generally, unless they get it mixed up?

A: Yes sir.

Q: Now, do practitioners of satanism keep records or books of things, spells or things like that?

A: Most occultists do but it depends upon how sophisticated what they do.

Q: I wanna show you State's Exhibit 110 and ask if you Ė if you'll look at that and also -- have you seen that before?

A: Yes sir, I have.

Q: If you'll look through that again.

(Pause)

A: Yes sir.

Q: Alright, and what does that appear to you to be?

A: What I would refer to as a partial book of shadows.

Q: Book of shadows --

A: A partial.

Q: -- partial.

A: Partial.

Q: Alright. Now, the items drawn on the front, what is that?

A: That is a pentagram, that happens to be a Wiccan, or white witchcraft pentagram.

Q: Alright. Now if you would open the book to the front page.

A: Yes sir.

Q: Alright. Now, explain what that is.

A: That's confusion to me.

Q: Alright.

A: And the reason why we've got a white witchcraft pentagram, then we have upside down crosses which comes from another type of occultism.

Q: What type of occultism do the upside down cross come from?

A: That's black witchcraft.

Q: Black witchcraft?

A: Yeah, and that is at the stations.

Q: That's what?

A: That's at what we call the points, the five points.

Q: Alright, what significance does that -- that it's at the five points?

A: Usually in traditional occultism -- excuse me -- satanism they'll have various activities take place or --

Q: Okay. Now --

A: -- figures --

Q: In white witchcraft or wiccan do you have upside down crosses?

A: No sir.

Q: Now, I want to show you State's Exhibit 115.

A: Yes sir.

Q: Alright. And is that a photograph that appears to be of that except there are a couple of other items on the front.

A: Yes sir.

Q: Alright. And what significance, if any, is there to the items that are on the front of the book of shadows?

A: Well, on the front there's overlaying, this pentagram there's an upside down cross. In black witchcraft that is a 180 degrees to Christianity. Then we have some kind of a flying skull here.

Q: I also wanna show you State's Exhibit 112 and ask if that has any significance in occultism.

A: The body here on top of what looks to be an altar is a head and it appears to be the same drawing of Ephias Levi.

Q: Who?

A: Ephias Levi. L-e-v-i. Bontamet, or a satanic goat head.

Q: Okay.

A: And below that is a person in a robe, and these robes I have seen sold in occult shops on the East Coast and West Coast.

Q: Is this Wicca?

A: No sir, this is black witchcraft.

Q: I wanna show you State's Exhibit 111. What significance, if any, is there of 111?

A: It's just a -- something gory.

Q: Alright. And in people involved in occultism, is there a particular type of artwork that you see associated with those people?

A: The ones that I have observed have been involving necromancy or love of death.

Q: Let me show you State's Exhibit 116. Now, on 116 -- when you look at 116 in relation to the other items that I've showed you, does that have any significance?

A: Uh --

Q: When you take it in relation to all the other items that I've just shown you.

A: On -- like the altar that's here -- several times I have had the opportunity to review pictures where they will have an animal's head on an altar or in a room usually have a candle on it. I've worked cases where they've dug up human heads.

Q: Are different names, or you ever been involved in cases where different names were used?

A: Yes. I mean -- you're asking have I seen -- books of shadows where they will have different names in them, yes. And these names are used inside the cult or their little group.

Q: Now, those items that I've shown you, are those related to Wicca or white witchcraft or satanism?

A: This is black witchcraft. I have not seen Wicca people use that. This one -- this kind of confuses me because I have seen people in Wicca, well-meaning have potions and elixirs.

Q: Have you seen Wicca use upside down crosses?

A: No sir.

Q: I failed to show you -- I wanna show you State's Exhibit 83.

A: Excuse me. Yes.

Q: At my request did you look over that book?

A: Yes, I did.

Q: Does that book have -- is it Wicca, Satanism, or both?

A: Both.

Q: And, did you notice anything in particular about the book?

A: Yeah I -- a couple of things. One, there is a chapter in here called, "Rising Devil," and it is underlined in red. Often times I get a look at books and the spinals are not broke on the back. You'll notice on this one it is not broken back, which to me indicates somebody hasn't read that part, and that part starts off with "Witch Hunt Mania."

Q: Alright, I couldn't hear you.

A: Witch Hunt Mania. That part doesn't look like it's been opened up for someone to read it.

Q: Alright, now, there has been evidence that the defendant Damien Echols said something to the effect "The younger the victim, the more innocent. The more innocent, the more power." Are you familiar with words of an author containing that statement?

A: Yes. Alistair Crowley.

Q: Who?

A: Alistair Crowley used that.

Q: Who is Alistair Crowley?

A: He was a gentleman from England, came to the United States, he started a group called OTO, and came to the United States, he started the Solar Lodge of OTO out in California.

Q: I can't hear you.

A: He started the Solar Lodge in California.

Q: Solar Lodge?

A: Solar, yeah, he called it Soto.

Q: Okay. And what type of beliefs was he practicing?

A; Black witchcraft, satanism.

Q: Satanism?

A: Yes, sir.

(Pause)

Q: Your Honor, could I have just one minute. (Pause) Do you know of Alistair Crowley's position on human sacrifice?

MR. FORD: Your Honor, that is objectionable. It's hearsay. He's asking him to testify about someone else's belief.

THE COURT: I'm going to allow him to answer if he knows about it. Yes or no.

A: He --

Q: Answer yes or no.

A: No.

Q: You're not familiar?

A: No.

MR. FOGLEMAN: Okay. I don't have any further questions, your Honor.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. PRICE:

Q: Judge, if I can approach the witness for just one moment. (Pause) Dr. Griffis, you have testified that in your opinion that this murder have trappings of occultism. Now, are you aware -- are you saying that this picture right here, State's Exhibit 111, are you saying this is one of the bases of your opinion that the murders were trappings of occultism?

A: No.

Q: Okay. And actually this -- this picture being something that the Crittenden Police Department, Sheriff's Office has had in their possession at least a year prior to these murders taking place, this would actually have no value in connection with your opinion, would it not?

A: Not that picture, no.

Q: Not this picture?

A. No sir.

Q: Alright, how about this other picture right here that you described, the one with the goat's head and the altar, picture 112, which also has been in either the juvenile -- Crittenden County Juvenile Office or the Sheriff's Department for the past year. This picture is not a basis of part of your opinion that these murders had trappings of occultism, is it?

A: That is occult in nature, yes sir.

Q: This is occult in nature? But --

A: Yes sir.

Q: -- but this picture has not been in my client's house for the past -- for a year prior -- actually almost 2 years ago.

A: Okay.

Q: So if that's the evidence, then this picture has nothing to do with the murders, is that correct?

A: No.

Q: Okay. No?

A: Would you please --

Q: Are you saying that this picture does have something to do with the murders?

A: It was shown to me last evening.

MR. DAVIS: Your Honor, I may enter an objection. The question is improper because Mr. Price, number one, presumes facts that aren't in evidence in his question itself. Number two, the Court's admonition to the jury that this testimony goes strictly to motive in regard to his testimony -- it may be evidence connecting motive where Mr. Price's question is directed directly toward whether it connects with the murder. There is a difference.

MR. PRICE: His opinion was that this murder had trappings of occultism.

THE COURT: Alright, I think the proper question to ask the witness is, is that picture one of the things that he considered in formulating his opinion as to whether or not trappings of occultism occurred.

Q: Alright, Doctor, is this picture one of the things you considered in determining whether occultism occurred as part of the motive in the murders?

A: Yes.

Q: This is?

A: Yes.

Q: And you realize that this -- are you aware that this picture has not been in my client's home the past year prior to the murders?

A: I had not been.

Q: If you're told that fact, does that change your opinion that this is a factor that you consider?

A: I would have to -- I would have to know whether his activities changed. I don't know that --

Q: Alrght, but --

A: -- I would be making a guess, sir.

Q: But as far as the -- the existence of a picture in his house. That picture was not in his house a year -- for 12 months prior to the murders.

A: Yes sir.

Q: Would this picture in and of itself have any basis for your opinion that the motive of this killing was cult related?

A: In and of itself --

Q: In and of itself

A: Would it have -- yeah because it is occult -- depicts an occult satanic scene, yes.

Q: But if this picture has not been in his house for 12 months prior to the murders?

A: I -- I don't know how to answer that, I'll be very honest with you, sir. I would have to know what he had done for that 12 months.

Q: Alright, but my question Ė and I'll get to what he's doing for the 12 months -- but my question relates to this picture.

MR. FOGLEMAN: Your Honor --

Q: This picture has been introduced at this trial against my client. This picture has been out of my client's house 12 months prior to the murders.

A: Okay --

MR. FOGLEMAN: Your Honor -- excuse me -- your Honor, I object. That question has been asked and answered two or three different times.

MR. PRICE: I'm asking him to explain his opinion about this.

THE COURT: Well, I think he has.

THE WITNESS: May I take this coat off?

THE COURT: Yes sir. He wants to take his coat off.

THE WITNESS: Would you mind, counselor, if I take --

MR. PRICE: Oh no -- go ahead.

THE WITNESS: I come down to Arkansas to get some heat.

(Pause)

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

Q: Alright. In looking at this book here, I think you called it the book of shadows --

A: Yes sir.

Q: -- Exhibit number 110 -- the first writings in this book talk about, "The rites are performed within a nine foot circle."

A: Yes sir.

Q: Alright. Isn't it true that there is no evidence at the crime scene of a nine foot circle?

A: That's correct, sir.

Q: In addition to this paragraph it also says that, "Incense was used in all witchcraft ceremonies." And isn't it true that there is no evidence of any incense at the crime scene?

A: From what I've been told, yes sir.

Q: Alright, so this page in this book has nothing to do with -- does this page have anything to do with your opinion that the motive for the murders had trappings of occultism?

A: That page?

Q: Yes sir.

A: No sir.

Q: This page. Alright, the next thing it talks about "improving the memory. " Do that spell have anything to do with the crime scene? Another one is "a love charm." Do that have anything to do with the murders?

A: Not to the best of my knowledge.

Q: Okay. "To improve the chances of success." Do that potion have anything to do with the crime scene of the murder?

A: I -- that one I don't know.

Q: Okay. Here's one, "a cure for worms." Was there any evidence of any worms at the crime scene?

A: I have not seen the crime scene report, sir --

Q: Alright.

A: -- as to that topic.

Q: Okay. Alright, "a cure for cramps." Is there any evidence about cramps being an element of anything at the crime scene?

A: No sir.

Q: Earlier you testified about this particular book here and mentioned that part of the book -- part of the pages were opened and there was some lines underlined. You have no knowledge of who it was that underlined --

A: No sir, I do not.

Q: Alright. And I think you had mentioned one of the chapters in the book -- ofcourse this book has several different chapters. Chapter one about "Horned Gods and Mother Goddesses." Chapter two "Evolution of Witchcraft Magic." Chapter three "Witch's Brews and Broomsticks," Chapter four "The Pagan Witches," Chapter five "The Rise of the Devil," Chapter six "The Witch Hunt Mania." Chapter seven "Juvenile Witch Hunters." Chapter eight "The Resurrection of the Crab." Is there anything in this particular book that is your basis of the opinion that the motive for these murders had trappings of occultism?

A: I found it very interesting, counselor, that the only thing that was underlined in that dealt with devil worship and there -- if I remember correctly, there was a couple sentences in there referenced to blood and its life force.

Q: But as far as anything in this book dealing with how to commit murders, how to kill somebody, anything of that nature. That type of material is not in this book, is not?

A: Is it a black manual? No sir.

Q: Now, going back to the factors that you had stated that were some of the factors that you considered in making your opinion. You first talked about the fact that a particular date -- I think you said May the 1st and then also April the 30th, are important dates. Alright now Ė let me back up a bit, in looking at your analysis of this particular crime, did you take some satanist beliefs, some Wiccan beliefs, some occult beliefs and kind of mix it all together? Are you saying that this is a satanist crime?

A: Indicators -- you know -- I've testified earlier, counselor, about the different types of occult activity.

Q: Alright.

A: And from what I could see, the trappings were used were that of devil worship.

Q: Of devil worship?

A: Yes sir.

Q: One of the factors that you testified to was about the date -- and is it your testimony that there are some -- I think you testified about April 30th and May 1st being dates of some type of importance?

A: They have what is referred to as ethsabbaths. Ethasbbaths are higher holidays and those two dates are higher holidays.

Q: Okay. You said "They." Who is "They"?

A: Occultists.

Q: Occultists?

A: In general, the whole broad spectrum --

Q: The whole broad spectrum --

A: Yes sir.

Q: Is it your opinion that Damien Echols is an occultist?

A: I looked at the information in total, counselor. Not whom did what. His name was on that particular book that you brought to my attention.

Q: That's correct.

A: And I found it interesting that Damien Echols underlined only the things which had to do with devil worship.

Q: Alright, now you testified earlier that you did not know who underlined --

A: Yes, that is true.

Q: Okay. Are you saying that Damien Echols is a member of the occult?

A: I'm saying that -- looking at the trappings of this type of case, looking at what the book -- whomever did that, that they have an interest in the trappings of satanic occultism.

Q: In your opinion is there a difference between a crime that has trappings of occultism and a cult related crime? Can you draw a distinction between those two concepts?

A: I -- counselor, what -- I know what you said but I don't know if that's exactly what you mean, alright, and I would like to answer it this way.

Q: Alright.

A: A cult is something we have seen with David Koresh.

Q: Okay.

A: Okay. An occult group is in satanism. When you mix them together, when you have an occult cult group, you are liable to have whatever the leader may want.

Q: Alright. In your opinion is Damien Echols a member of an occult group or a cult group?

A: If that's his name and he's been -- that was -- in his writings he has an interest in it, yes sir.

Q: He has an interest in it?

A: Yes sir.

Q: Alright. But is it possible to have an interest but not be an actual member of a cult group?

A: An actual -- occult group?

Q: Yes sir.

A: Okay. I have priests and ministers will call me and ask me what does this mean or that mean, that doesn't mean they are occultists. But on the other hand, they don't have books that somebody has underlined with that either.

Q: Okay. So a main factor that you are considering is the fact that my client possessed that book?

A: That and -- yes.

Q: Now, back on the dates, you said that May 1st and April 30th were key dates. Now these murders took place May 5th --

A: Wait. I think you had that backwards, counselor. Did you mean to ask me on April 30th and May 1st?

Q: April 30th is Walpersnaucht --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- and May 1st is Beltane.

A: Beltane. I thought you got it transformed.

Q: That's right, my mistake if I did.

A: That's alright.

Q: Alright, but as far as --

A: I just wanna make sure I'm answering that --.

Q: Sure, that's fine. The murders, that's on the testimony took place either May 5th or May 6th --

A: Yeah.

Q: -- so --

A: It's my understanding that there was a full moon.

Q: Alright, so is the fact of the full moon, is that a key factor that you're considering?

A: That is one of the factors, yes sir.

Q: Alright. Now, if the murders would have taken place -- if there was no moon -- in your opinion it would not be a satanist killing?

A: It would lower the degrees of --

Q: Alright, if this --

A: -- probability.

Q: Alright. If the murders took place when it was a half moon, would that lower halfway?

A: You're getting into semantics.

Q: Okay. You testified that the manner in which the victims were tied -- I believe you testified it was a display fashion. Is it also true that the manner in which they were tied could be the basis of this being a sex crime and not a crime with trappings of occultism?

A: Could be. Yes.

Q: Yes. Alright, could you please state the name of the case that you investigated in which the victims were tied in this manner which turned out that case also had trappings of occultism?

A: I've never had one like that.

Q: Alright.

A: I've only had them where they have been displayed.

Q: You have also testified that the type of injury was another factor that you considered in the terming, about the trappings of occultism. Is the type of injury also -- the fact that the genitalia were removed -- that also could be a factor in this being a sex crime, correct?

A: Could possibly.

Q: Okay, and could this also be a serial killing type of crime?

A: Serial killers usually leave something or take something from the scene.

Q: Okay. And you have also testified that the type of -- the torture was another factor based on your opinion. Can you state -- tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury which case it was that you had investigated in which it was decided it had trappings of occultism in which torture was a factor?

A: This was in Warwick, Rhode Island, a female was killed inside a pentagram. She was raped and hit with a -- slashed with a knife a couple times and after she was incapacitated, they burned her up, set her on fire.

Q: Alright. Was -- in that case did they actually find a pentagram?

A: Yes sir, they did.

Q: Alright. And you're aware -- in this case the officers never found any kind of pentagram?

A: Yes sir.

Q: Or they didn't find any kind of nine foot circle?

A: Yes sir.

Q: You also testified -- just stated a minute ago, in the Rhode Island case that they burned up the victim. Is fire another factor that you look at to determine if fire is present to see if the case has trappings of occultism?

A: Uh-hum.

Q: Okay. And in looking at the evidence is our case there was no evidence of fire.

A: That's one of the things.

Q: Another factor that you testified to earlier was about the presence of water. Is it true that the bodies could have been placed in the water in order to drown them?

A: That's what the Medical Examiner said to me.

Q: So would you agree with me that that could be one of the reasons they were placed in the water?

A: Yes.

Q: And also, is it true the bodies could also have been placed in water to help avoid detection of the bodies?

A: Is that possible?

Q: Yes sir.

A: Yes.

Q: So the fact that the bodies were found near the presence of water, that in and of itself does not make this a trappings of occult related killing?

A: Usually in occult cases they will be around a water source.

Q: Alright, and what is a case in which you've investigated and in which there was a determination that it had trappings of an occult related killing which was around a water source?

A: The one in Michigan where the boy is now in Ionia prison.

Q: Okay. Just the Michigan case.

A: Yes sir.

Q: You also have testified that the sucking of blood was a factor to consider, and that blood is a life force, and you mention that they usually, they will take the blood. Did you have a chance to -- I'm sure you've discussed with the Medical Examiner the amount and the loss of blood in all three of the victims in this case?

A: Yes.

Q: Alright, and I'm sure you looked at the autopsy photographs --

A: Yes sir.

Q: -- and read the autopsies?

A: Yes sir.

Q: And, of the three victims, only one of the victims -- strike that. Do you have an opinion as to where all the blood went in this case?

A: No I don't.

Q: Is the fact that the absence of blood at the crime scene -- could that also mean the victims were killed elsewhere and deposited at the crime scene?

A: Could be.

Q: You also testified about the significance of the left side of the face and the right side of the face, with the left side having reference to satanism and the right side to Christians.
Is one of your factors because one of the victims had more injuries on the left side of the face -- that's another factor that this case had trappings of occultism?

A: Not -- it had some. A little.

Q: But not a significant --

A: -- I found it of interest. How would you --

Q: -- You would agree with me if a victim is receiving facial injuries, there is a fifty percent chance they'd receive injuries to the left side and a fifty percent chance to the right side, correct?

A: Ah, yes, sir.

Q: You also made reference to Anton LaVey and the Satanic Bible. Have you ever read the Satanic Bible?

A: Yes, I have.

Q: Was this in preparation of the research that you were doing to help you better able to consult with law enforcement officers?

A: Yes. I met Anton LaVey.

Q: You also mentioned about the factors of dress, jewelry and tattoos. And you mentioned the wearing of black could be a factor that you considered in determining if this was cult related?

A: In -- you're going to have to go over that one again. I want to make sure I understand what you're saying.

Q: Is the fact -- the State has introduced fifteen black tee shirts that they seized at the home of Jason Baldwin.
Is it your testimony that if any person wears a black tee shirt, is that a factor that you consider in determining if this case has trappings of occultism?

A: The prior dress code that the individual uses is an indicator, yes.

Q: Are you aware that our local university's colors are black and red?

A: (SHRUGS)

Q: And you're also aware that the Jonesboro High's colors are black and gold?

A: I have gone on record also saying that just because they wear a shirt like that doesn't make them the next Manson.

Q: How many of the cases that you have investigated in which the determination was made that they had trappings of occultism in which the defendants wore black t-shirts?

A: You're asking specific numbers, sir?

Q: Yes sir.

A: I cannot give you a specific number. I get asked that question and people send me pictures privately, parents do, whatever.

Q: Backing up to the picture over here, State's Exhibit 111. In the research that you conducted, are you aware that this picture came from a skating magazine?

A: Source was not told to me.

Q: I'm sure you looked at the back of this photograph, "Skater parks. Your 1991 tour guide."

A: No sir, I was not given the back. Nor was I given the note inside.

(Pause)

MR. PRICE: Alright, judge, we certainly did not stipulate to the introduction of this particular note.

MR. FOGLEMAN: I didn't know it was there either.

MR. PRICE: I know, ah --

THE WITNESS: I think --

MR. PRICE: (Inaudible)

(Pause)

Q: Earlier you testified about a quote from, I believe, Alistair Crawley or Crowley --

A: C-r-o-w-l-e-y. Yes sir.

Q: Okay. Dealing with younger victims?

A: Yes sir.

Q: Okay. Are you aware that the West Memphis Police Department asked my client how he thought the murders might have occurred?

A: No sir, I'm not aware.

Q: Are you aware that the West Memphis Police Department asked approximately 200 other individuals how they thought the murders might have occurred?

A: Iím not aware of that, sir.

Q: The fact that there was no pattern to the placement of the bodies out at the crime scene -- I mean, is that a factor -- if the bodies were placed in a pattern would that be a factor you would consider?

A: Yes sir.

Q: Okay. But the fact that the bodies were not placed in a pattern then that's a factor you did not consider?

A: You were looking down when you asked that, counselor. Are you suggesting that they were not in a pattern when they were found?

Q: Let me rephrase this.

A: Yes sir.

Q: Did the crime scene indicate to you that the boys were laid out in a line or in a unique manner?

A: I sus -- By the way they were tied up, I can only suspect that, okay.

Q: Were you aware that you specifically asked that question on January 27, 1994 to detective Ridge of the West Memphis Police Department? And he answered, "No pattern to the placement of the bodies --

A: Yes sir.

Q: -- "except the placement in the water."

A: Yeah.

Q: Did you also ask detective Ridge "Was there any natural substance in any way laid out in a pattern?" I believe that was question number 4.

A: You got that -- could you bring it up so that I can --

Q: Sure.

A: -- take a look at it, counselor. (Pause) Yes, I did.

Q: And you also aware that detective Ridge's answer was that from his examination of the crime scene, "I could not find any items that were laid out in any pattern."

A: Yes sir.

Q: Alright, and what was question number 6? That you asked detective Ridge?

A: "Were there any indicators of a slab or a log or device present at the scene.Ē

Q: Okay, and he answered number 6, "No slab or log was found to be in the area." Youíre aware of that?

A: Yes sir.

(Pause)

Q: Just a moment judge.

(Pause)

?: (Inaudible)

THE WITNESS: Yes sir.

MR. PRICE: Is the fact that there were 3 victims in this case a factor that you considered in reaching you conclusion?

A: No, I just looked at the base number three, that's all.

Q: Okay. (Pause) One moment, your Honor. (Pause) Alright Dr. Griffis, if I could approach you again.

A: Sure.

Q: There was an initial group of 11 questions, and starting midway on the bottom part of page 1, "In looking at some of the scene photos and data from the coroner, some primary indicators come to focus on." What was the primary indicator, number five?

A: At the time, counselor, I was working from crime scene photos and not Medical Examiner photos, and I placed down that all three boys were traumatized in the area of the penis.

Q: Okay.

A: That's wrong.

Q: Alright, that's wrong? You were able to correct that once you had a chance to look at the autopsy photos?

A: Yes sir.

MR. PRICE: No further questions at this time, your Honor.

CROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. FORD:

Q: Dr. Griffis, is any of the stuff that you've told this jury so far been based on things you learned out at this college?

A: Yes.

Q: Now, did you learn those things in any particular course or class?

A: For the course in toto I was required to read several occult books.

Q: So basically what you learned was just someone else's opinion in a book?

A: No sir.

Q: Now, you said that one of your reasons for your opinion was because you saw a book and you said the person who had this book had an interest in the occult, right?

A: Yes sir.

Q: How many books do you have on the occult?

A: In house right now?

Q: Yeah, how many you have?

A: About 4,800.

Q: Youíve got an awful lot of interest in it, don't you?

A: Yeah.

Q: Are you a member of the occult?

A: No.

Q: But you've got an interest in it, don't you?

A: That's my job.

Q: You make a living out of having an interest in the occult, is that right?

A: Not just that in itself.

Q: So having an interest in it doesn't make you a participant in it, does it?

A: No.

Q: Okay, alright. I notice that you didn't answer one of Mr. Priceís questions, you just kind of dodged around it, and I wanna ask you again. Could this be a serial killer?

A: I'd have to have the answer to several questions before --

Q: Okay. It could be?

A: No I just said I'd have to know a lot more than just taking a guesstimate.

Q: Basically everything you have told us here today is a guesstimate, isn't it?

A: No, it's based on training and work.

Q: If you can't rule out that it's a serial killer, aren't you just guessing that it's an occult killing?

A: No, the trappings are there. What I -- in a serial killer there are things that you look for. You haven't given me anything that would -- you know.

Q: So basically you're telling this jury you don't have enough information to truly form a complete opinion?

A: On serial killing? No.

Q: Okay. So since you canít rule it out it's still a possibility, isn't it?

A: I would have to know a lot more, yes.

Q: Okay. So that means you can't rule it out?

A: No.

Q: Have you ever been to this crime scene? West Memphis, Arkansas?

A: No sir.

Q: Never even walked out there, have you?

A: I went past it last evening that was --

Q: Never walked out in there, have you?

A: No sir.

Q: Wouldn't that be important if you're gonna give an opinion about this crime scene being the site of a ritualistic occult killing that you actually go and see it?

A: They sent me pictures of all four sides.

Q: They sent you pictures? Okay. Did those pictures show you every angle?

A: They showed me, I think, three or four angles, yes sir.

Q: Three or four angles. But there's a lot more than three or four angles if you're out in a wooded area, isn't there?

A: I -- in looking at occult cases, counselor, I look at the points of a compass as an indicator.

Q: Points of a compass, okay. Part of your opinion -- You ready, Barbara? -- Part of your opinion is based upon the fact, isn't it, that this happened in a secluded area? Isn't that right?

A: Yes.

Q: This is a secluded area right near these homes, near this truck wash and near this truck stop. That's a secluded area?

A: Counselor, I'm sorry, but I can't see from this angle.

Q: Get down there and tell me if -- tell this jury if you even know where the crime scene is on that photograph. Can you pick it out? You can get down if you like.

A: Thank you. (Pause) It's my understanding it's right in this area.

Q: And you're telling this jury that is a secluded area?

A: Yes sir.

Q: But you've never been there, have you?

A: No sir.

Q: Do you know how far it is from where these bodies were found to the nearest home? Do you know?

A: I was in Bryn's (?) I can't really remember exactly.

Q: You don't know, do you?

A: Not right now, but I knew at the time.

Q: Now, if you're trying to make a determination that it being in a secluded area is important, doesn't it stand to reason that you wanna know how close you are to other things? How close you are to a home, to a business?

A: I was, counselor, in a case in --

Q: That's not --

A: -- Boston which was right beside a church or a school, but they never saw it either.

Q: That's not my question. My question is, if you're trying to make -- if youíre basing your opinion on the fact that itís a secluded area --

A: Yes.

Q: -- isn't it important to know how close it is to a residence or a business?

A: I think in Mr. Ridge's report to me it was there.

Q: That's not my question. Is it important -- for the third time -- is it important in determining whether you're in a secluded area to know how close the nearest residence --

A: Yes.

Q: -- or the nearest business, but you don't know that, do you?

A: I was told by -- I think it was in his report -- of Bryn's -- how close it was.

Q: But you don't know, do you?

A: No sir.

Q: Do you have an opinion about where the blood went? Or you don't know, do you?

A: No.

Q: Don't know?

A: I do not in this case know where the blood went because they have not told me.

Q: Now, if there was testimony in this case that these boys were killed somewhere else --

A: Yes sir.

Q: -- that they were taken, tied up and gagged --

MR. FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, that assumes facts that aren't in evidence for him to say there was testimony that they were killed somewhere else.

MR. FORD: Let me ask a hypothetical question the way Mr. Fogleman did.

MR. FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, that isn't what he said. He said if there was testimony. My hypothetical included testimony that there's actually been.

THE COURT: If you're going to form a hypothetical, it is going to have to be based upon facts that are in evidence.

MR. FORD: Or may be presented in evidence.

THE COURT: Or may be presented in evidence.

MR. DAVIS: Your Honor, may we approach.

THE COURT: Yeah.

(A BENCH CONFERENCE OUT OF THE HEARING OF THE JURY)

MR. FORD: Peretti gave an opinion on possibilities --

THE COURT: -- But that's not testimony.

MR. FORD: Yes, he did. He gave his opinion, your Honor. He gave his opinion that in his opinion these homicides occurred somewhere other than at the scene.

MR. FOGLEMAN: No, he did not.

MR. FORD: Yes, he did.

THE COURT: No, he didn't.

MR. FORD: Yes, he did.

THE COURT: He just said it was possible.

MR. FORD: Well, that's an opinion. Thatís an opinion.

MR. FOGLEMAN: Show me where he said that.

MR. FORD: Will I have a chance to read it?

MR . PRICE: (Inaudible) copy.

THE COURT: You're not going to find it in there.

MR. FORD: I can't read all that hundred and some odd pages right now and find it, but I know that he gave that opinion.

?: Keep your voice down.

MR. FORD: He gave his opinion that it could have happened in one of three places --

?: Keep your voice down.

MR. FORD: -- in the water, at the bank or somewhere else, and of those three the most plausible was somewhere else.

MR. FOGLEMAN: I think that was your testimony.

MR. FORD: That was his testimony.

THE COURT: No.

?: Ask another question and weíll find it (Inaudible)

MR. FORD: May we look at that so we can read it?

MR. DAVIS: If you wanna find that area for me --

MR. FORD: Yeah thatís what Robinís gonna look for while I ask him some other questions, or do you wanna keep that a secret?

MR. DAVIS: I'm going to keep this. This is my copy.

MR FORD: What a joke. Can we take a break since he won't let us look at his copy to get a copy of it?

THE COURT: You can get all the copies you want, but we're not taking a break now. Let's move along.

MR. FORD: Your Honor, I can't question this witness until I have the answer to that question.

THE COURT: Until you have what answer?

MR. FORD: I believe Doctor Peretti gave the opinion that of those three possibilities the most probable was that it happened somewhere else.

MR. DAVIS: Here's the area where you were questioning him (inaudible)

(Pause)

THE COURT: What you're trying to --

MR. FORD: There's the question there --

(Multiple voice - unintelligible)

MR. FORD: Let the judge read it.

THE COURT: Okay.

(Pause)

THE COURT: Okay. I've read it.

(RETURN TO OPEN COURT)

Q: If there were testimony in this case that these homicides could have occurred somewhere else --

MR. FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, it's the same objection.

THE COURT: Sustained. You wanna come up here and point it out to me?

MR. FORD: Your Honor, I asked Doctor Peretti the question --

(A BENCH CONFERENCE OUT OF THE HEARING OF THE JURY)

(Whispering)

MR. FORD: Is this a certified copy of the transcript? First of all, your Honor. (Pause) "I would question that about the blood unless it happened in the water or it happened at some other place." That was his testimony.

THE COURT: He just said it was possible.

MR. FORD: And I'm asking him. All I wanna know --

THE COURT: Was there any positive, factual testimony that it happened somewhere else?

MR. FORD: I could -- well, -- do I get to call him back --

THE COURT: Are these thing on?

MR. FORD: Do I get to call him back at the conclusion of my case?

THE COURT: I guess so.

MR. FORD: Or do I get to ask him these hypothetical questions now?

THE COURT: Are you telling me that you have some physical evidence that these murders occurred someplace else?

MR. FORD: Your Honor, I'm telling you that I believe that there is an argument from this witness right here, Doctor Peretti, that based on his testimony, I can argue to the jury that it could have happened somewhere else.

THE COURT: Sure.

MR. FORD: Therefore I'm entitled to --

THE COURT: -- but you don't have any facts --

MR. FORD: I'm entitled to ask him if he were told that this homicide occurred somewhere else, would that change his opinion that this was an occult killing. I think I'm entitled to ask him that because the jury may very well conclude and agree that yes this happened somewhere else and if that is true, they need to know that his opinion would be different.

MR. DAVIS: That is assuming a fact that is not in evidence.

MR. FORD: I can't ask him, if this homicide occurred somewhere else, would you have a different opinion?

THE COURT: I'll let you ask that question.

(Multiplce voice - unintelligible)

THE COURT: Just like you just asked.

MR. FORD: Okay.

(RETURN TO OPEN COURT)

Q: Doctor --

THE COURT: He said he didn't know whether he was supposed to listen or not that's why he turned his back --

Q: If this homicide occurred somewhere else --

A: Yes sir.

Q: -- other than in these woods, would your opinion that this was an occult killing change?

A: You're asking me to make an opinion, counselor.

Q: Absolutely, I sure am --

A: And to have that, I would also have to know -- do we know where it happened at?

Q: If the homicides did occur somewhere else, would your opinion change?

A: I would have to have a different set of facts.

Q. So does that mean, yes your opinion would change or, no your opinion would not change?

A: No, my comment is the same, counselor, as what I've just said to you. I would have to know some more facts.

Q: Would the likelihood go down if the homicides occurred somewhere else?

A: It could go up. It could go down.

Q: It could go down --

A: It could go down, it could go up.

Q: What evidence do you have to link Jason Baldwin to the occult? What evidence?

A: Only what I was told last evening.

Q: What evidence do you have that links Jason Baldwin to the occult?

A: He was the individual who sucked the blood out of the individual's penis.

Q: Okay. If that evidence is wrong, if that evidence is a lie, do you have any other evidence to connect Jason Baldwin to the occult?

A: I have not seen the reports to know if other people said he was present or not. So the answer would be no.

Q: The answer is no?

A: Yeah.

THE COURT: Anything else?

MR. PRICE: Yes sir, I've got some redirect.

MR. FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, I've got -- I think -- I've got one question, your Honor.

THE COURT: Alright.

REDIRECT EXAMINATION

BY MR. FOGLEMAN:

Q: The serial killers have been mentioned. In your experience, do serial killers act alone or run in packs?

A: Of all the cases I have read about, there's only been, I think, two of them that ran with another individual. Most generally they act alone.

THE COURT: Alright, is this redirect? That you've got now? Mr. Price?

MR. PRICE: No sir, it's recross examination of this witness.

THE COURT: Based upon that one question?

MR. PRICE: Based upon Mr. Ford's questions, judge.

THE COURT: I'm not gonna let you go too far in recrossing on each other, but go ahead to a limited degree.

MR: PRICE: .Just one brief area, your Honor.

RECROSS EXAMINATION

BY MR. PRICE:

Q: If I can approach the witness.

THE COURT: Alright.

Q: Can you identify that picture?

A: (Laughing) Yeah, back when I had not so much grey hair.

Q: I believe there was an article in the Capital Magazine --

A: Yeah. You identified that earlier today as from some place else. That's out of Columbus, Ohio.

Q: Okay. Excuse me.

A: Yes sir.

Q: Alright, do you recall an article in the Capital Magazine, Dispatch Magazine, July 15, 1984, and this was basically an article about you. It was entitled "Sympathy for the Devil," and it talked about your activities in this area, in your research, in your consulting and that type of thing.

A: About -- yes sir.

Q: Alright. And I think actually, I believe you --

A: Not so much consulting --

Q: You were still with the department --

A: -- yeah I was with the department, and I was being asked questions from other departments.

Q: Alright. I wanna ask you about a quote that is attributed to you that is contained in this article: "You have got to remember there's a lot of sheriffs and a lot of police chiefs under a hell of a lot of pressure when I get there. He said, I'm there to help my brother police officers. I report to them, not the public." Is this quote attributed to you?

A: Yes sir.

MR. PRICE: No further questions.

MR. FOGLEMAN: I don't have any further questions.

THE COURT: Anything else? Can we let him go? You're gonna have to have state policeman to take your to that plane I guess.

THE WITNESS: Thank you, sir.

THE COURT: You're free to go.

THE WITNESS: Thank you.

THE COURT: Let's take a short recess.