having been first duly sworn to speak the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, then testified as follows:



Q: Please state your name for the Court.

A: James Moneypenny.

Q: Doctor Moneypenny, what is your profession?

A: I'm a psychologist

Q: Alright, can you tell the ladies and gentlemen of the jury a little bit about where you practice, and your experience, and your educational background?

A: With regard to the educational background, I have a B. A. Degree in psychology and sociology that I got in nineteen seventy-two at the University of Northern Iowa. I have a Bachelor's Degree, ah, a Master's Degree in counseling that I got in seventy-five from the same place. And a specialist's Degree in education also from the University of Northern Iowa in nineteen seventy-six. And I have a Ph.D Degree in psychology that I got from the University of Missouri in Columbia in nineteen eighty-two.

Q: Alright, do you practice in a private practice in Little Rock?

A: Yes, I do.

Q: And what types of activities does your practice involve?

A: Well, I have a general practice. I see individuals, couples, and families for things like marriage counseling, parent/child problems, anxiety, depression and so on. I also do some consulting where I do disability evaluations for the Social Security Administration. I've also been a consultant for the Department of Corrections for the past five years doing evaluations and treatment at various units of the prisons.

Q: Is that something you do on a regular basis?

A: Yes.

Q: Okay, in addition, have you previously been qualified to testify in courts in Arkansas in the past?

A: Yes, I have.

Q: Alright, do you recall the nature of the type of testimony?

A: A pretty broad range. I've done some child custody things. I've done quite a bit of criminal work. Also, civil litigations involving personal injury and things of that sort.

Q: Alright, have some of the times you've testified been on behalf of defendants in capital murder cases?

A: Yes, I have.

Q: And have you also testified on behalf of the State of Arkansas in other criminal cases?

A: Yes, there have been a couple of instances of that.

MR. PRICE: Alright, Judge, at this time I would like to submit Doctor Moneypenny as an expert.

MR. FOGLEMAN: No objection.

THE COURT: Alright, you may proceed.


Q: Alright, Doctor Moneypenny, could you explain to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury what types of procedures that you use in conducting -- and the basis to the opinion that you have in this particular case?

A: Yes, there were several things. I conducted clinical interviews with Damien. It was about five and a half or six hours over a two day period of time in February. Also, I administered some psychological tests to assess personality functioning and personality structure, reviewed some records, including his mental health records, education records, and medical records, looked over some of his writings, and some of the interviews that he conducted.

Q: I notice that there is a packet of information there in front of you. Is that the records that were compiled in this case?

A: Yes.

Q: I mean, the educational records, the medical records, and the ones you just described?

A: That's right.

Q: Alright, was the method and procedures that you used in analyzing this situation, does that come from any kind of standardized or generally accepted approach in your profession?

A: Yes, it's generally recognized that, you know, clinical interviews, psychological testing, and reviewing records and any other collateral information that's available, there's a general procedure to following in doing this.

Q: Alright, do you have -- you have been able to form an opinion as to Damien Echols' mental state of diagnosis and also his overall psychological make-up?

A: Yes, I have.

Q: Okay, and would you explain that opinion to the jury and also elaborate on it?

A: Okay. Damien suffers from a severe mental disturbance that's characterized by first depression and a history of alcohol abuse, and importantly, -- underlying that is a pretty disordered personality structure. And there is some unique -- there is some unique aspects of his personality structure that I believe started back very early on in his upbringing.
The particular characteristics -- or I think the particular features of his personality have to do with what I call a pervasive or all encompassing sense of alienation between himself and the world. In essence a sense of profound emotional restriction -- a holding in of feeling and an inhibition of being able to express a lot of feelings that he has.
And a related thing is I think a very painful sensitivity to things like betrayal, hypocrisy, lies, all things that might be hurtful or harmful to a person who's extremely sensitive to as a result of -- of what has happened to him.
I think all of this goes back to what -- what we refer to in my profession as a failure to bond as an infant. And ordinarily an infant will form an attachment or a bond with the care giver, and as a result the infant will feel a sense of reassurance, a feeling of safety, a sense that his needs or her needs are going to be met. You know, hunger is going to be taken care of. Safety is going to be taken care of. And in the absence of that kind of bond or attachment developing, there's almost always a pretty important -- or a pretty significant disturbance in the functioning.
What's unique in his case is how he reacted to that. I want to also say that the failure to bond or a failure to develop this attachment doesn't necessarily imply or mean that there was some kind of overt abuse or some kind of deliberate neglect. Sometimes this just happens and we don't know why. We look at the family and everything might seem to be okay. There may be an absence of what we might consider abuse. In fact he has consistently denied he was ever abused in any open typical sort of fashion. But in any event -- you know, whatever the cause is -- a very important thing that children -- infants and children and later adults need didn't happen.
And as I said the way -- a more typical response to some of this when a child doesn't get these basic needs met is that they -- they act out -- act up. They protest loudly. They become disruptive, sometimes unmanageable, sometimes out of control, together with a lot of emotional distress within themselves. It might be anxiety. It might be confused thinking. It might be depression. But there tends to be an acting out or disruptive nature.
In contract, I didn't -- I don't see that with him and that's where -- what happened with him is he went inward. He withdrew and as he -- as he grew up, he withdrew and created in his own mind sort of a fantasy world.
This withdrawal, I think, was an effort to pull away from this -- what I think he perceived as a very dangerous, unnurturing, unsupportive world out there -- not just within the family, but everyone else. He had a very transient lifestyle. They moved a lot. There were very few opportunities to develop close friendships, any kinds of bonds or relationships with people who could be supportive who could identify and relate to him. Of course, this hurt him very deeply.
But he was bright enough and he's very thoughtful and in his own mind he started answering -- or attempting to answer a lot of the kinds of questions that all children ask. You know, who am I, why am I here, what am I going to do, where are we going, and I think importantly asking the kinds of questions such as -- you know -- why is there unfairness? How come things don't always work the way they're supposed to? How come people get disappointed?
And ordinarily children get -- what we call corrective messagery. You know, you explain things to your children and you tell them how it can be okay, and you tell them how to survive and get along despite the world's imperfections.
I think Damien missed a lot of that kind of thing. He was dealing with his own mind and he came up with -- you know -- his own value system where he attempted to come up with explanations. And you know there are a number of comments that he made that I think are very telling that I can get to in a little bit.
But part and parcel of this coming up with solutions was a rejection of everything else out there. There was a rejection of other individuals' values -- other people's ideas of how you ought to live life, of how to succeed and get along. He rejected that because he said that doesn't work. It didn't work for me. It doesn't relate to me. I'm not getting any of this. So he just -- kind of put him -- categorically rejected it and created a sense of deep alienation between himself and everyone else. And, of course, there is a lot of depression there as well along with this, I suspect, a lot of hurt and feelings that were never expressed built up and I think he's full to the brim. I think he's very full of -- of emotion -- so much so that it's overwhelming, and I think at times it was so overwhelming that he couldn't manage it, and I think at those times was when his depression was the worst and when he would feel alienated, or when he would feel enraged.

Q: If one of the factors in his -- is it your opinion that he's got some type of personality disorder and are there some factors that play in this determination?

A: Yes, I'd call this probably a -- he's kind of in a transition period. Not because of an age. We have different diagnoses for children and adolescents and adults and the adolescent name or disturbance, I'd probably call an identity disturbance. It's a disturbance in one sense of who I am, and what I am going to do, and what is the world about.
As an adult I would call this personality disorder and see -- included features from a disorder called a borderline personality disorder which is perhaps an unfortunate choice of words. It doesn't mean it's on the border of anything. It's just a -- it might be better to label it unstable personality and characteristics of this disorder are deep -- deep-seated changes in mood, being okay one time and then getting just extremely down, markedly changed feelings about whether or not he feels close in relationships and an inability to feel close or to get close and to maintain the closeness. In fact one of the things we say these people have -- ambivalence or mixed feelings about being close. They may want to, but when they get close they get so scared and they do something to pull back, and they do something to push the other person away, or they may pull away.
And then also, some instability in behavior. You know, they're not able to consistently hold a job. They have some problems consistently doing anything with regards to school, relationships, work and so on.
The other traits that we considered disordered -- the disordered personality characteristics have to do with what we call antisocial personality traits and these would have to do with his ideas that relate to his rage and anger at the world, and being so -- so angry.
Although again, here I think it's important to distinguish -- he does not fit a lot of typical patterns or typical patterns of behavior of personality just as his reaction to that failure to bond was kind of unique and unusual. So too, he's sort of a unique blend of personality traits because there are a lot -- there are several other aspects of both borderline personality and the antisocial personality which really don't fit him.
For example, the antisocial personality we usually think of the classic psychopath who's a thrill seeker and athletic and interested in doing anything they can without regard to how anybody else feels, and just -- you know, he doesn't fit a lot of those things. Although there are some other characteristics there that---

Q: Were there some ideas that he's had in the past that were patently absurd, or irrational, or delusional?

A: Yes, and let me mention a couple of these. And also, there are ideas that created a lot of concern amongst many people who had evaluated him, and I think some of the concern is not entirely founded or warranted. In part because I think his -- some of his ideas are just a matter of being different. And, you know, it's sort of like, well, your idea is different from mine, and I don't like you, and, or I don't understand you, or I don't accept you. When really it's a matter of being different.
Other ideas were patently absurd and I think they had to do with what I said before about him being alienated. At one level he was angry at the world, but at another level, I think he recognized it. He, too, is part of the world, and has to account for it for himself. And I think in order to protect himself from that self-hate or what would ordinarily be self-hate, he developed grandiose unrealistically powerful ideas about himself -- almost God-like kind of things. And I think this represents part of his fall into fantasy. And I think he would like to believe it and sometimes but it's so detached from reality that we can't really believe it.
I'll give you some examples. There was a comment that he made and this has to do with how he always felt so different from anyone and he said, "Until I was twelve I couldn't figure out why I was different and I even thought I may have been an alien put here on another planet." And this, you know, might be not a typical, but it is a child-like way of trying to understand why am I so different from everybody? Why do I not have anything in common with anyone?
He made the comment, "I wasn't never a little boy. I've always thought the way I do now." Which certainly is consistent with people that had a very disturbed childhood and never get to be a child. And again, in order to adapt and survive, they have to pretty much assume adult characteristics, abandon the child life because they're too aware of their own vulnerability and weakness.
Comments like -- just like there's good, there's evil, and there's me. He's totally apart from everything else.
This notion of being completely filled and overwhelmed with emotion. He made a comment one time. He said, "I felt like a giant cramped into a tiny body." These are -- these are not the typical kinds of things that you hear from teen-agers and you'll heard some pretty weird things from teen-agers sometimes and, you know, it's a difficult time for them. But these things really reflect some very serious disturbances of identity, a sense of reality that reflects this flight into fantasy, and borderline delusional thinking. In fact I think one of his doctors -- Doctor Gallion of Charter -- initially diagnosed him as having a psychotic disorder.

Q: Now, in going through the records, had Damien been admitted to several psychiatric hospitals in the past?

A: Yes.

Q: As far as the -- the concept of Wicca and/or satanism, is that something that you looked at in respect to the evaluation of Damien and do you have some opinions as to those issues?

A: Yes. I'm certainly aware of it. Now, that's an important part of his life and the Wicca was apparently an effort on his part to find some answers -- to find some solutions. The absence -- or in the absence of any conventional value systems or moral codes, or religious beliefs as he had rejected all of those, he was searching for something else. Now, it's not unusual for teen-agers to look to alternative value systems or the counter-cultures, or whatever in an effort to find meaning.
He happened to get interested in this Wicca or white witchcraft and, you know, commented to me that, too, didn't have all the answers. You know, it wasn't an all explanatory belief system. He consistently denied any relation or any interest or involvement in the satanic stuff, per se, and distinguished the two. He was pretty specific in what he said, and also, the other records that reflect discussions of that indicate that.

Q: Alright, in light of the difficulty of imagining anyone committing murders such as these, how does Damien compare with others that you have evaluated at the Department of Corrections?

A: Well, consistent with what I've said about him being sort of not the usual stereotype, I'd say the same -- not in this regard -- that some other people that I've worked with who have committed brutal murders or crimes. You know, you can look at them and you can sometimes say, "Yeah, that's a pretty bad person." Or you kind of get a bad feeling or maybe you -- the hair on the back of your neck might rise up and just kind of feel that way.
You know, again, he doesn't fit that -- that stereotype. It didn't take very long with him and, you know, I --I --I felt okay and working with some other people I haven't -- I haven't always felt okay. Sometimes I have felt uneasy, or uncomfortable about my own safety. So, you know, he really doesn't fit that stereotype and doesn't -- doesn't look like that sort of person.

Q: Alright, there's been some evidence introduced at this trial and at least at one point that Damien was a manic depressive. Is that something that as far as your evaluation of him, do you feel that this is a correct---

A: I---

Q: ---correct diagnosis, or do you---

A: ---No, I wouldn't make that diagnosis. In reviewing the records I failed to see the evidence or the data or the behaviors that would support that diagnosis. I certainly saw evidence of the depression, but I didn't see anything relating to manic episodes as manic episodes are defined in the diagnostic and statistical manual.

Q: Alright, earlier you referred to some of the significant statements that he had mentioned to you and how those -- how you kind of explained it and tried to understand those showing his psychological make-up.
Are there any additional statements at this point that are something that -- I guess -- comes out at you that the jury would be particular -- be interested in knowing about?

One thing in particular that he says that caused me to think some. I think this has to do with his awareness of needs to nurture, and I think that is an intuitive sense of his own in that need -- his own unmet needs. When I asked if this were all just a bad dream and he had a chance to raise his son, I said, "Well, what would you teach your son?" I thought maybe this would give me some insight into -- into this thinking. What he told me was, "I would teach him that he was special, and I would teach him that he may not be the same, but that don't mean you're wrong." And that's a real reflection of his own needs as well.

Q: Alright, at this state, does -- basically the jury is faced with two options -- the death penalty or life without parole -- do you think that -- since you are familiar with the psychological treatment and help that's available at the Department of Corrections -- do you think that this would be -- the psychological problems of Damien -- are something that can be treated during his time at the Department of Corrections in order to -- and what would the result be?

A: Yes, I do. I think a combination of effect would be expected. One would have to do with -- with maturity -- growing up and maybe seeing life a little more completely, and maybe seeing some -- some things answered a little bit better.
The opportunities may be expressed in some more of his feelings and perhaps even in that environment there would be a sense of stability -- something which he may not have had that much of -- that would also contribute to a resolution of -- of some of the problems he's got.

MR. PRICE: One moment, your Honor.
No further questions, your Honor.

MR. FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, I've just got a couple of questions.



Q: In your review of the records, did you review his records from the East Arkansas Mental Health Center for his treatment there?

A: Yes, from East Arkansas.

Q: Could I see that, please? (INDICATING.)


MR. FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, if I could have just a second here. (EXAMINING.)


Q: There's a note in the records in regards to a suicidal pact. Are you familiar with that?

A: Only vaguely.

Q: Do you know who that suicidal pact was with?

A: I can't recall it off the top of my head.

Q And you indicated that he had -- his emotions would build up to the point and he would hold them in to the point where they would boil over?

A: I didn't say they would boil over. I just said that he had a big reservoir of intense feelings that he wasn't able to let out. They were suppressed.

Q: And they would build up to the point where they would be reflected in either -- some suicidal -- either himself making attempting -- making an attempt on his life or thinking of it, or in a sense, him becoming enraged?

A: Yes.

Q: Are these records in chronological order?

A: I don't know.

Q: You don't know?

A: It's been a while since I glanced over them.

MR. FORD: Your Honor, may we approach the bench?


MR. FORD: Your Honor, if he's attempting to elicit that there's some suicidal pact between Damien and Jason, we object to that.

MR. FOGLEMAN: I didn't know who it was with.

THE COURT: I don't have any idea what he is trying to do.
Well, why don't you just ask him if he knows about it and has read it in the records?

MR. FOGLEMAN: It doesn't say who.



Q: Are you familiar with him being seen on May the fifth of 1993 by the mental health center?

A: I don't recall the specific dates. There's a lot of data there. I don't recall those specific dates.

Q: Well, let me ask you if you recall this: When in the May the fifth report where it says that at times he is impulsive and does things that may be harmful to him. He has impulses to do strange and harmful things. Do you recall reading that?

A: There was -- I recall the essence of that sentiment. I don't recall reading that specific note. And he had commented that he had burned himself and hurt himself before although that sort of thing had kind of diminished of late.

Q: Did you -- did he tell you about his -- the -- the situations where he was violent toward others?

A: I'm aware of the fight he had with his girlfriend's boyfriend and the altercation, of course, with his father.

Q: And then you said something about he had an all powerful God-like image of himself?

A: Sometimes he would refer to himself as having those kinds of powers.


MR. FORD: Your Honor at the -- I'm not even sure of the doctor's name --

MR. FOGLEMAN: Moneypenny.

MR. FORD: -- Moneypenny, who is testifying, brought with him some medical records that he reviewed. How thoroughly he's not real sure, but he did review the medical records -- prior psychological records of the defendant Damien Echols.
After direct had passed, the records that he reviewed were scanned by the prosecuting attorney in preparation for cross examination of Mister -- Doctor Moneypenny -- and at that time medical records -- which apparently never had been reviewed by the prosecutor before because they were privileged and the mental capacity of the defendant had yet to be placed in issue -- had never been relevant.
At this point in time that privilege is probably waived because they have placed his mental functions at issue as to mitigation, and now any privilege probably has been waived without making an argument.
However, there are things which are in that record which are extremely telling as to the defendant Echols. However, having been tried together and jointly, these records are going to, I believe, be extremely prejudicial to the defendant Jason Baldwin.
These are offered by the defense of the defendant Echols in mitigation, and what it is going to turn out, your Honor, they're going to probably be some of the most telling evidence in aggravation to be brought out by a mitigation witness.
That is something the defendant Baldwin has no control over and unfortunately I don't believe a cautionary instruction will be -- I don't believe the Court can give one that will be strong enough to cure the prejudice that is going to be brought out by the statements of the defendant Echols.
Jason Baldwin's life is on the line and these statements that are going to be brought out may in fact take his life without any opportunity whatsoever by counsel for Jason to have ever obtained these records or to have ever obtained any psychological profile because we didn't know these records existed, the prosecutor didn't know they existed, didn't know the psychological state of Echols would be placed in issue.
We are totally and completely handcuffed and they are going to bring out statements about Damien making statements that he gets power from drinking blood, that there are sheep and wolves, and that the wolves eat the sheep and that he is a wolf and they are going to bring out statements about, I think a lot about what happens after I'm dead because I want to go where the monsters go.
And all of those things, your Honor, Jason Baldwin sits over here helpless to defend, and there is not a cautionary instruction that the Court can give that will truly go back into that jury room and prevent this evidence from being considered against Jason.
We object to it and we ask the prosecution in limine be ordered to make no reference to these things because the issue of his mental ability does not -- I just don't believe this should be used because I don't believe the Court can cure the prejudice to Jason Baldwin, and we are helpless to defend ourselves as this evidence has just been discovered in the last 25 or 30 minutes.
We did not know that the psychology of Damien Echols would be placed in issue. We've never had an opportunity to review these records. We are totally and completely helpless, yet his life hangs in the balance, and we would ask the Court to instruct the State in limine to make no reference to these records.

THE COURT: It is the Court's understanding that the purpose of a bifurcated trial is to allow the jury to hear evidence of guilt or innocence and that -- and to determine guilt or innocence alone. That the second phase of the trial is for the purpose of considering punishment.
In doing so the State is allowed to introduce aggravating circumstances and facts that obviously may be quite prejudicial and would have been prejudicial in its case in chief as to guilt or innocence, such as criminal history records -- a classic example of it. Those would be prejudicial toward an accused and are not normally admissible in the case in chief unless they are opened up by the defendant himself. In this case there was no effort to introduce criminal history.
In any event the purpose of the punishment phase is to allow aggravation and mitigation, and aggravation certainly has the nature of being prejudicial to the accused.
I'm willing to give the cautionary instruction that the jury is not to consider the evidence of Damien Echols' psychological makeup or any aggravating evidence introduced as to him as to any punishment that might be imposed as to Jason Baldwin and I will do that.

MR: FORD: We request the instruction. However, we are not sure the instruction can properly cure it, and it is an impossible request that you're asking the jury to do, and accordingly we renew our multitudely made motion for severance.

THE COURT: That will be denied again.

MR. FOGLEMAN: Your Honor, the State's even willing in its own argument to tell the jury not to consider it against Jason Baldwin.

THE COURT: All right.


THE COURT: All right, ladies and gentlemen, the Court needs to give you an additional cautionary instruction.
You will recall from the previous instructions you were informed that you should consider the evidence in this case separately as to each defendant and to base your decision on each of them totally and completely separate. And that instruction pertains during the punishment phase as well.
In addition to that you are instructed and told that the testimony of the witness on the stand at the present time should be considered only as to Damien Echols and no inference, suggestion or consideration whatsoever as to any punishment that should be imposed as to Jason Baldwin should be based upon this witness' testimony.
You may proceed, gentlemen.

MR. FOGLEMAN: Thank you, your Honor.


Q: Doctor Moneypenny, I believe that you had indicated in your direct testimony something about in your meetings with Damien -- something about the hair on the back of your neck standing up or not standing up?

A: I was comparing and contrasting my reaction to Damien with that of other -- criminals.

Q: And the documents that I have got in my hand are copies of -- at least some of the mental health records that you reviewed of Damien Echols, is that correct?

A: Yes.

Q: You're familiar with the records where he was hospitalized in Oregon, is that correct?

A: I'm aware of that, yes.

Q:You reviewed these records, is that right?

A: Yes.

Q: You're familiar with the statement in the record where he was hospitalized in Oregon where it says the parents are concerned that he is also into satanism or devil worship?

A: Yes.

Q: And in regard -- back to the East Arkansas Mental Health Center -- you're familiar with Doctor Irby's report where he visited with Damien Echols on January 5, 1993?

A: I can't recall the specific content of that.

Q: Let me show it to you. And if you would, read the part that I have highlighted in pink. This page has the date. It is on the next page.
And I need you to speak up if you could.

A: (READING) Reports that he thinks a lot about life after death. Quote, I want to where the monsters go, end quote. Describes himself as, quote, pretty much hate the human race, end quote. Relates that he feels people are in two classes, sheep and wolves. Wolves eat the sheep.

Q: Thank you, Doctor. That would be he thinks a lot about life after death and he wants to go where the monsters go?

A: That's what it says.

Q: And then are you familiar with the report from January 25th, 1993?

A: Do you want me to read this?

Q: Yes, sir, if you would read the part in pink.

A: (READING) Damien explains that he obtains his powers by drinking blood of others. He typically drinks the blood of a sexual partner or of a ruling partner. This is achieved by biting or cutting. He said, quote, it makes me feel like a god, end quote.

Q: It makes him feel like what?

A: A god.

Q: A god. Okay. Go ahead.

A: (READING) Damien describes drinking blood as giving him more power and strength.
Then later on the page -- (READING) He has also agreed to continue to discuss his issues with power and control as related to his practice of rituals.

Q: And then, finally Doctor, are you familiar with the report where he was seen on January 19th, 1993?

A: Not the specific content.

Q: You reviewed these reports?

A: Yes.

Q: If you would read this part?

A: (READING) Quote, I just put it all inside, end quote.
(READING) Describes this as more than just anger like rage. Sometimes he does, quote, blow up, end quote.
(READING) Relates that when this happens, the only solution is to hurt someone. That's in quotes.
(READING) Damien reports being told in the hospital that he could be another Charles Manson or Ted Bundy. When questioned on his feelings he states, quote I know I'm going to influence the world. People will remember me, end quote.

MR. FOGLEMAN: We would offer State's Exhibit 500, these medical records.

MR: PRICE: We have no objection, your Honor.

THE COURT: All right, without objection, they may be received.




Q: Doctor Moneypenny, I'd like to show you portions that you just read. And I notice there are some other portions in there that you did not read.
If you could, take a look at a particular record and explain to the jury what else Mr. Echols said during that particular interview and explain the results of it and go into some more details about the background?

A: This is what we call a progress note. Anytime we have a psychotherapy session, we have a record of what went on at least in abbreviated form.

Q: What was the date on that one right there?

A: January 19th, 1993.
(READING) They indicate that Damien is talking about trying to find a way to live on his own, said he doesn't get along with his stepfather very well, talked about a history of abuse. As we talked of how he was treated as a child, denies that this has influenced him.
(READING) Says his mood and expression of feelings was without expression. Says he has good eye contact, dressed in black. Plans to return for treatment next week.

MR. FOGLEMAN: If he could speak up a little bit, please.


A: I'll go back to where it says (READING) His affect or emotion was expressionless. Said he had good eye contact, was dressed in black, with a cross earring in his left ear and scheduled to return appointment on given -- I believe that means next week.
Apparently the content of this is he's talking about how Damien can learn to get along and deal with some of the problems he's having in there.
I think some of the other comments that were made -- I think you have to consider the overall context. And on the one hand these are certainly extreme comments, but on the other hand, it is not particularly unusual to hear people expressing threats or I'm so mad I could do such and such, and we can't take every comment like that as a direct indication that this person is going to do that.
This also is consistent with my feeling that so much of what he says and believes with regard to these unconventional belief systems which is part of his flight into fantasy as opposed to a highly structured belief system that he actually put into practice.

Q: I believe another one you were asked about earlier was the January 25th, 1993, record. If you could review that entire record, please?

A: Again, this is -- overall context of this is Damien is talking about his feelings about death. It is not particularly unusual for particularly adolescents to have a concern about death and the afterlife.
He is talking about some of the practices involved in his belief system, as I read before, and he is talking about rejection of belief systems, says he believes there's no God.
He believes that his spirit is now living within him.
He's kind of talking about some of these beliefs he has about his view of the afterlife and spiritual matters.
I think a lot of his rituals and his descriptions of them are for effect, and there's not really very much evidence that it occupied a great deal of reality.
There are some instances of one thing or another happening, but I really think a lot of this is overblown.

Q: In reaching the opinions that you did before do you both look at specific things in records and also the overall context?

A: Yes.

Q: The January 5th one here. I believe earlier you were asked to read from the January 5th, 1993 record. If you could take a look at that?

A: This is the one where it said he thinks a lot about death and he wants to go where the monsters go. I must have missed that specific one. I'm not sure what the significance of it is.
The comment again before about, pretty much hates the human race. I'd already testified about that and him feeling alienated and his conceptualization of seeing everyone else as sheep and himself as a wolf was -- I think part of that elevation of self in a grandiose way is a way to protect himself from his own feelings of vulnerability.

Q: Any other specific comments about -- or the overall comments about that visit on January 5th, 1993?

A: Nothing in particular. They are just talking about some of his background information, problems he had had in family and so on.

Q: I believe the fourth portion you were asked to look at were the records from the hospital in Oregon and there was some reference to his parents had a concern about satanism?

A: Um-hum.

Q: I believe you were asked specifically about that, that there was reference to that in the records.
Do you have an opinion to that reference in the records and what that means?

A: Only so far as -- I'm not sure anyone really knows the difference in Damiens' mind between satanism versus witchcraft, things like that. I think many people see any kind of an unusual spiritual practice and kind of lump it into one category.
I'm sure his parents were confused by this.
What I know is that Damien consistently denied an interest in satanism and admitted to an interest in witchcraft.



Q: Doctor Moneypenny, you don't know -- you haven't seen any of the items that he had in his possession, have you, that would indicate any interest in satanism or witchcraft, either one, have you?

A: Just the materials that I have talked about here.

Q: You hadn't seen the items that he actually had in his bedroom?

A: No.

Q: You talked to him for how long?

A: Over two days about five and a half to six hours.

Q: Is that each day or total?

A: No, total.

Q: Oh, total. Okay. What did you say -- you said something about the sheep and wolves. What did he say that the wolves did to the sheep?

A: The wolves eat the sheep. I think he was speaking abstractly.

Q: That's not unusual? Those kinds of comments aren't unusual?

A: People commonly characterize the world in two kinds of people, one or another. So to characterize the world -- us and them, me and them -- is not a particularly unusual thing for people to do that in an effort to try to make sense of who you are, who I am, how you function, how I function.

Q: In your business is it not unusual to find people telling you about drinking blood and they do it to make them feel like a god? That's not unusual?

A: It's highly unusual.

Q: It's what?

A: It's not usual at all. It is very atypical. I think that represents some of the extremes of his thinking and beliefs and what it has come to for him.