(tape turned back on after recess & the bringing of jurors back in)
Fogleman: - Experience, education, and training or - qualifying you for the position at the crime laboratory.
Sakevicius: Ok. I'm a criminalist at the Arkansas state crime lab. We do -
(mumbling)
Sakevicius: I'm a criminalist at the state crime lab. I do hair and fiber comparisons, gunshot residue, our section is also responsible for arson analysis, glass and paint comparisons. I've had a degree in chemistry from the University of Central Arkansas. I have attended, uh - in Quantico, Virginia, the FBI Academy for accelerant detection course. I've had uh - a polarized light microscopy course from Microne Institute. I've had man made fiber identification course from the Microne Institute. I've attended various uh - workshops on different areas of trace analysis. I've also attended uh - human hair comparison course hosted by the Southern Association of Forensic Scientists. And I've had extensive in laboratory training.
Fogleman: Your Honor, we would submit Ms. Sakevicius as an expert in the field.
Price: No objection.
The Court: Alright, you may proceed.
Fogleman: In the course of your duties with the Arkansas state crime laboratory, uh - did you recieve certain items from the medical examiner's office for examination?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: I want to show you what's been introduced as state's exhibits 80, 81, and 82. And ask if you can identify those.
Sakevicius: Yes, I can. This is the ligature from Michael Moore. Here are my laboratory case number, the item number, and my initials.
Fogleman: Alright, is that exhibit 80 by any chance?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Ok. And that's the ligature from Michael Moore?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Alright.
Sakevicius: Here's the ligature from Christopher Byers.
Fogleman: And what exhibit number is that?
Sakevicius: 82.
Fogleman: Alright. And how can you identify that?
Sakevicius: My laboratory case number, the item number, and my initials are on this item.
Fogleman: Alright.
Sakevicius: And this one's from Steve Branch. And there's the case number, my item number, and initials.
Fogleman: And is that exhibit 81?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Alright. And what examinations did you make of those items?
Sakevicius: I examined the knots and I examined them for hairs and fibers.
Fogleman: Now, in relation to your examination for knots, let's start with uh - the Michael Moore ligature, exhibit 80. What did you find on examination uh - in - of those knots?
Sakevicius: Ok. The left wrist consisted of a square knot and I also removed a skin tag from inside the loop. The - pardon me that was - yeah, the left wrist. The uh - no, excuse me - the left wrist was a square knot, the skin tag was removed off the left leg, that was also a square knot. The right leg knot was a series of four half hitches and the right wrist knot was a series of three half hitches.
Fogleman: Ok. So on the left wrist, what kind of knots did we have on Michael Moore?
Sakevicius: Square knot.
Fogleman: Alright, on the left ankle, what kind of knots did we have on Michael Moore?
Sakevicius: Square knot.
Fogleman: Alright, on the right wrist, what kind of knots did we have?
Sakevicius: Three half hitches.
Fogleman: Alright. And on the right ankle, what kind of knots did we have?
Sakevicius: Four half hitches.
Fogleman: Alright, so on the left side they were a particular type of knot, a square knot.
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: And on the right side, they were a different type of knot?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Fogleman: Alright. And the only difference between the wrist and the ankle was one additional half hitch?
Sakevicius: Right.
Fogleman: Now if you would uh - look at exhibit 81, what did you find in relation to the knots on exhibit 81?
Sakevicius:Ok. The right leg knot was a series of three half hitches and the loop around the leg was - was tied twice. The right wrist was a half hitch with a figure eight. The left leg knot was a series of three half hitches. The left wrist knot was a series of three half hitches.
Fogleman: Alright. And this is on which, uh - Stevie Branch?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Alright. So on Stevie Branch, on the left wrist we had what kind of knot?
Sakevicius: A half hitch, wait - the left wrist - uh -
Fogleman: The left wrist.
Sakevicius: Three half hitches.
Fogleman: Alright. And on the left ankle, what kind of knots did we have?
Sakevicius: Three half hitches.
Fogleman: Alright. Now on the right wrist on Stevie Branch, what did we have?
Sakevicius: A half hitch with a figure eight.
Fogleman: One half hitch with a - kind of wrapped around figure eight?
Sakevicius: Uh - it was tied after the figure eight.
Fogleman: Ok. Alright. And then on the right ankle, what did we have?
Sakevicius: Had three half hitches.
Fogleman: With what?
Sakevicius: An extra loop around the leg.
Fogleman: Alright. So on the left side, on the left wrist you have one type of knot and on the left ankle you have the same - exact same knot, right?
Sakevicius: Right.
Fogleman: Three half hitches in both places.
Sakevicius: Right.
Fogleman: And then on the right side, you have - on the wrist, you have one half hitch with a figure eight?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Alright and on the ankle, you have three half hitches with a loop on the leg?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Alright. So on the right side you had something - kind of a conglomeration of things.
Sakevicius: Something a little different.
Fogleman: Alright. Now if you will look at exhibit 82. And who's knots were these?
Sakevicius: Um - Byers.
Fogleman: Alright. And on Chris Byers, on the left what type of knots did you find?
Sakevicius: Ok. Just a second, I need to find better notes on that. Ok. The knots were a series of two half hitches.
Fogleman: Ok. On the - what were they on the wrist?
Sakevicius: I believe it was on all of them.
Fogleman: Ok. So on the - both the left and the right, on the ankle and wrist, you had uh - double half hitches in all knots.
Sakevicius: Right.
Fogleman: So on Chris Byers, every knot was the same?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Alright. Now in your uh - duties with the crime laboratory do you also examine the fibers?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Alright. Tell us a little bit about what you do in examining fibers and what - what you're looking for.
Sakevicius: Ok. Generally we have two sets of clothing or sometimes it involves bedding or other items. I'll take these items and I'll use a piece of tape and collect fibers from them and I'll attach the tape to a glass slide. I'll take and clip a standard from all the applicable items, ones that have good color or fiber types in them. I will take this standard and smear it across a glass slide also. And then I will compare my questioned slides with the standard to see if I can find any that are like that. First, after I find something that looks good, I'll take it off the slide and do a microscopic on it to make sure that it looks similar and identify the basic fiber type involved. If it passes this test then I put it on an instrument called a microspectrophotometer. Here, I will look at the dyes in the fibers to see that they have the same curves. Um - if they pass this test and they're a synthetic type fiber then I will put them on an instrument called a fourier transform infrared spectrophotometer. And here I will see that the basic um - polymers that make up the fibers are the same.
Fogleman: What - when you say "polymers", what are you talking about?
Sakevicius: Uh - polymers is a synthetic material, they are usually made out of patroleum products, it's sort of like plastic.
Fogleman: Ok. Now if you could, also explain to the jury uh - what primary transfer and what a secondary transfer is.
Sakevicius: Ok. Primary transfer is if I touched one of you and then did tape lifts and I found fibers from my items on you, that would be considered a primary transfer. A secondary transfer would be if you touch someone else and then tape lifts were done on that person and fibers from me were found on that person, that would be considered a secondary transfer.
Fogleman: And do you also get secondary transfers in situations where, if you got clothes hanging together in the closet?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Now in the course of your uh - duties, did you also examine some items that were submitted by the West Memphis police department in this case?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: I want to show you what's been introduced as state's exhibit 45 and ask if you can identify that.
Sakevicius: Yes. Here's the case number, my initials, and the item number.
Fogleman: Let me ask you something real quick, a little - off that particular item but on those items in general, uh - I noticed that there's some white uh - paper in the sack. Are you aware how that got there?
Sakevicius: We, in the laboratory, examine our items on clean sheets of paper then we'll fold them back up and put them in the sack.
Fogleman: Alright. Do you recall the condition of the items - the clothing items, when you recieved them at the lab?
Sakevicius: Uh - yes, I have notes on that.
Fogleman: Ok, if you would look at that or tell us what the conditions of the -
Sakevicius: Ok. This E-3, it's a pair of blue jeans.
Fogleman: Talking about exhibit 45?
Sakevicius: Yes. They were found inside out and they were heavily soiled.
Fogleman: Do you recall or do you have notes about whether they were still wet in the sack or not.
Sakevicius: Uh - they were still slightly damp 'cause we took all the items out and placed them on white paper and then covered them with white paper for them to dry over the weekend before I started my analysis.
Fogleman: Alright. Now, after they dried were the same sacks used that they were recieved in?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Now, in reference to state's exhibit 45, I believe it's shown as E-3, uh - did you examine that item of clothing for fibers?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: And what did you find?
(pause)
Fogleman: Let me ask this another way, let me just speed it up a little bit. On exhibit - can you identify exhibit 8?
Sakevicius: Yes, there's my case number, the item number - which I call E-5, and my initials.
Fogleman: And also exhibit 44.
Sakevicius: Ok. Again, the case number, my item number, and my initials are on this bag.
Fogleman: And did you examine all of those items for evidence?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Alright. Now, did you also participate on June the 3rd of 1993, in a search of the defendants' residences?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: And uh - who came down to - to - with you to participate in the search?
Sakevicius: Kermit Channel.
Fogleman: And uh - on June the 3rd, did you participate in a search of the residence of Damien Echols?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: And as a result of your prior examination of fibers found on the victims' clothing, did you have - were there particular fiber types that you were looking for?
Sakevicius: Yes. I had examined the slides from the victims and tried to find similarities in fiber types which could have come from - that were different from the constituance of the clothing they were wearing, which could have come possibly from an assailant. And I had in my mind a number of fiber types that I had seen there.
Fogleman: Alright, I want to show you exhibit 85, for identification purposes, and ask if you can identify that.
Sakevicius: Yes. My case number, the item number, my initials are on this bag also.
Fogleman: Alright. And where did you recover that item?
Sakevicius: I believe that was from Damien Echols' residence.
Fogleman: Alright. And I also want to show you what has been marked for identification purposes as state's exhibit 88 and ask if you can identify that.
Sakevicius: Yes. My case number, my item number, and my initials are on this bag also.
Fogleman: And where did you recover that item?
Sakevicius: This was recovered from Jason Baldwin's residence.
Fogleman: Now after those items were recovered, did you make some uh - comparisons with items from the victims' clothing?
Sakevicius: Yes, I did.
Fogleman: Alright. And what tests or comparisons did you do?
Sakevicius: I uh - I did the - I used these items as the standard and I compared them against the slides of the victims. When I found fibers that looked similar, I took them off and did the microscopic examination. Then, I did the uh - microspectrophotometer examination. And on the synthetics, then I did the foyertransforminfared analysis.
Fogleman: Alright. Now, in relation to exhibit 45, uh - which is - are the blue - here it is right here, are the blue pants. What fiber uh - did you obtain for comparison purposes?
Sakevicius: Ok. I found a green polyester fiber from E-79, which would be exhibit 85.
Fogleman: Alright, you found a green polyester fiber?
Sakevicius: Yes, I found this on E-5.
Fogleman: It was found on E-5, which is exhibit - well -
Sakevicius: I should say that they were similar fibers. Not that it came from.
Fogleman: Um - E-5 is state's exhibit 8, which is the cub scout cap?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Alright. And tell me again the fiber that - you found a green -
Sakevicius: - A green polyester, that's microscopically similar to the fibers used in the construction of E-79.
Fogleman: Would you open this sack and exhibit that shirt to the jury.
(pause)
Fogleman: Alright. And that is the shirt that was recovered uh - from the Echols' residence?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Fogleman: I want to show you a photograph.
(pause)
Fogleman: And I am marking for identification as state's exhibit 92. And ask if you can identify the contents of that photograph.
Sakevicius: I would say it's this shirt.
Fogleman: And is that the area where the shirt was recovered?
Sakevicius: Uh - I believe so.
Fogleman: Is that your recollection?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Alright, did you actually recover the shirt?
Sakevicius: I think I did.
Fogleman: Your Honor, I would offer state's exhibit 92.
Davidson: No objections, your Honor.
The Court: Alright, it may be recieved.
Fogleman: Can I exhibit to the jury?
The Court: Yes.
Fogleman: Put the shirt back in the sack.
(pause)
Fogleman: By the way, what was the fiber content of that shirt?
Sakevicius: Uh - cotton/polyester blend.
Fogleman: Ok. So, it was a blend of cotton and polyester?
Sakevicius: Yes, I believe so.
Fogleman: Alright. And on state's exhibit 8, which is the cup scout cap, you found one green polyester fiber which was microscopically similar to this shirt?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Fogleman: Now, in - what fibers - if any, for comparison did you find on state's exhibit 45, which is E-3, the blue pants?
Sakevicius: I found a green cotton and a green polyester fiber microscopically similar to this same item.
Fogleman: Alright. So on this exhibit - the pair of blue pants, state's exhibit 45, you found one cotton and one polyester which were microscopically similar to the fibers contained in this same shirt?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Fogleman: Your Honor, we would offerstate's exhibit 85, the shirt.
Price: No objections.
Davidson: No objections, your Honor.
The Court: Alright, it may be recieved without objection.
Fogleman: Now, did you also participate in a search at the residence of Jason Baldwin?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Fogleman: Alright. And I believe you previously testified that exhibit 88 was found at Jason Baldwin's residence, is that right?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Fogleman: And what is that item?
Sakevicius: It's a robe.
Fogleman: A bathrobe?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Alright. Now, just so the jury understands, ok, you're not suggesting that - that Damien wore this little shirt or that Jason wore the bathrobe?
Sakevicius: No, I'm not.
Fogleman: Ok. Is this where secondary transfer may come into play?
Sakevicius: Yes, it's possible.
Fogleman: Alright. Now if you would direct your attention to exhibit 44, which is E-2. Alright, what fibers or items did you find for comparison on that exhibit?
Sakevicius: I found a single red rayon microscopically similar to those used in the construction of the robe.
Fogleman: Alright, could you say that one more time?
Sakevicius: I found a single red rayon fiber microscopically similar to that used in the construction of the robe.
Fogleman: Alright, which is state's exhibit 88. That right?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Fogleman: Your Honor, we would offer state's exhibit 88.
Price: No objection.
The Court: It may be recieved.
Fogleman: What is the affect of your ability to find uh - fibers, hair, whatever uh - if items are in water, submerged - submerged in water?
Sakevicius: Uh - being submerged in water is very detremental to the recover of - recovery of trace evidence.
Fogleman: Ok. And which would include -
Sakevicius: - Fibers.
Fogleman: Ok. Oh, on uh - did you recover uh - on a sheet uh - a single negroid hair?
Sakevicius: There was a single negroid hair recovered off of a sheet, I believe it as off of the Byers - used to cover the Byers child.
Fogleman: Alright, were there any other negroid hairs recovered?
Sakevicius: I don't believe so.
Fogleman: When - now, where was the fiber from uh - or similar to the fibers in state's exhibit 88 - the robe, where was it found?
Sakevicius: It was off of E-2, which was a black and white shirt.
Fogleman: Is that state's exhibit 44?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Ok. Now, in making these comparisons, when you say they're similar uh - what process do you go through and what does that mean?
Sakevicius: Ok. After I recover something on the tapes and I feel under the stereoscopic examination - this magnifies the fibers approximately 20 times their normal size -um - if I feel they look similar to the standard, I recover them off of the slide and I do a microscopic examination. Here, my examinations will run from 100 times to even 400 times magnification of their normal size. I'll look at the um - diameters, the uh - the shape of the fiber, the color. I would see if there is delustrance there. I would -
Fogleman: Alright, you see if what's there?
Sakevicius: Delustrance.
Fogleman: Ok, I'm not sure - I know I don't know what delustrance is, I don't know if the jury does or not.
Sakevicius: It's a compound called titanium dioxide, they're small little particles that are placed into the polymer before the fibers are made and these will cause the fiber to have a duller appearance, they won't be so bright when you look at the uh - garment it's - when it's finished.
Fogleman: Ok.
Sakevicius: Um - I also look at uh - optical properties of the fibers, uh - I'll -
Fogleman: - What does that mean?
Sakevicius: Ok. Under polarized light, um - cross polarized light, the background that I'm looking at the fiber will be black, the fiber itself if it has any birefringant characteristics at all will have a color to it. Uh - this will be different for different generic fiber types. Meaning rayon, polyester, nylon - I'll study this, I'll study the sign of enlongation, uh -
Fogleman: You'll study the what now?
Sakevicius: Sign of enlongation -
Fogleman: And what does that mean?
Sakevicius: (laughs) That's another optical property, uh - that some low birefringant fibers have. If the fibers pass all these tests, if they're similar in all these manners, then I will take them and do a microspectrophotometer analysis. This instrument will look at the dye characteristics and where the dyes absorb light and it will give me a curve and if these curves from the standard and the known - or the unknown match, then - and if they're synthetic type, then I will go ahead and do the foyertransform analysis.
Fogleman: Ok.
Sakevicius: If the polymers match, then I consider the fibers similar.
Fogleman: Alright. And in this case, did you do all of that?
Sakevicius: Except for cotton. Cotton, we don't do a foyertransforminfared analysis because cotton is cotton and there's no point.
Fogleman: Alright, so you - and there was one cotton fiber you referred to?
Sakevicius: Right.
Fogleman: So on all the other fibers, uh - the other three fibers, you did all of what you just described?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: And what was the results?
Sakevicius: They were the same - or similar.
Fogleman: I don't have any futher questions at this time, your Honor.
(pause)
Price: Lisa, in your report, there's a paragraph that states - and I think on - if you look at the June 29th, 1993 report, on page 11, um - the top paragraph - I think it - it's a paragraph that I've seen in quite a number of uh - fiber reports. Could you state um - repeat that sentence to the ladies and gentlemen of the jury and then I'll ask you to explain that afterwards.
Sakevicius: Ok. (reading) It is pointed out that fibers do not possess a sufficient number of unique, individual microscopic characteristics to be positively identified as having originated from a particular person, to the exclusion of all others. It should say 'item' instead of 'person'.
Price: - A 'person', alright.
Sakevicius: This means that if you were to go to Walmart, you'll see a rack of clothing and all of the clothing on it is the same. It could be that all the fibers were made at the same time and they'll have the same characteristics. And a number of people might have that garment in their household. So if I find a fiber similar to another item, then it can't nece - it doesn't necessarily mean it came from that item. It could've come from ano - one of these other items that was hanging on that same rack.
Price: Alright now, is this something that you put in all your reports?
Sakevicius: All fiber reports get this, yes.
Price: Ok. As a matter of fact, you were - I think when you listed your training earlier, you had mentioned that the - that you had recieved some courses from the FBI?
Sakevicius: That was for accelerant detection.
Price: Alright. Um - is it also true that the FBI recommends that this paragraph be included in any reports?
Sakevicius: I think they use it, yes.
Price: Ok. Lisa, are you familiar with a book, 'Forensic Science Handbook' by Richard Sapherstein?
Sakevicius: I have read parts of it.
Price: Matter fact, you have suggested that this is a book that I could purchase to pick up some additional information about hair and fiber comparisons?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Price: Ok. I'd like to show - and is this an accepted text in the field?
Sakevicius: Yes, it is.
Price: Alright. I'd like to approach you and show you a paragraph here, on page 211. If you could read that paragraph for the jury.
Sakevicius: (reading) The limits of human hair comparison should be explained to the jury. Even though the questioned hairs -
Fogleman: Excuse me. I hate to interrupt, but this is a paragraph on human hair comparisons?
Price: Alright, does this also apply to fibers, as well?
Sakevicius: Uh - the two are similar in nature. Although hair is a different analysis.
Price: Ok, but as far as um - that book recommends that on hair analysis, the limits of hair analysis should be explained to the jury. Would the same concept apply with fiber evidence?
Sakevicius: I would think so.
Price: Alright. You may continue.
Sakevicius: (reading) Even though the questioned hairs may be similar in all respects to a person's hair, and dissimilar to most other hair, the forensic examiner can never say with certainty that there might not be another individual who possesses similar hair.
Price: Alright. Now essentially the - although this specific paragraph deals with hair, the same uh - the same general information applies to fiber evidence as well?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Price: Alright. In reviewing your testimony, it's your testimony that there was the one green cotton fiber, and this was recovered on the pants of Michael Moore - inside the pocket of the pants of Michael Moore?
Sakevicius: Uh - I couldn't say exactly where, from that item. It was recovered from the E-3 item.
Price: Ok, and E-3 item was - was a pair of - that was the pants that was inside out?
Sakevicius: A pair of blue pants.
Price: Ok. Alright and the item that you said this was microscopically similar to - if I can - t-shirt is that?
Fogleman: I think I laid it up here, right here.
Price: Alright, this item right here, um - Alright, item - E item number 79. The blue shirt that was recovered at Damien Echols' house.
Sakevicius: Correct.
Price: Ok. Alright, Damien, I want you to come forward please.
(pause)
Price: Alright, try to put this shirt on if you can.
(pause)
Price: Alright Judge, I'd like the record to reflect that my client can not put on this blue t-shirt.
The Court: Ok.
Price: And also, if I can approach the witness.
The Court: (indicating)
Price: Can you state the size number for that tag?
Sakevicius: 6.
Price: And what is the - does that have some kind of a label or description of what type of shirt it is?
Sakevicius: Garanimals.
Price: Garanimals, ok. So if there's any um - alright, in addition, there were two green polyester fibers that were recovered from the cub scout hat?
Sakevicius: One was recovered from the E-3 item, the blue pants and one was recovered from E-5, the cub scout cap.
Price: Alright, so one was from the pants and one was from Michael Moore's cub scout hat. And these were also microscopically similar to the polyester fibers that make up that particular shirt in front of you?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Price: Alright. And is it also your testimony that if there's any type of Garanimals shirt that has the same cotton/poly blend, as that particular shirt - assuming the colors are correct, would also be microscopically similar?
Sakevicius: If it were made at the same time, from the same company, same dye lots, things like that.
Price: Ok. And also, if there was - were other clothing that was made by the same company, by the same dye lots, of a different size perhaps then that also could be microscopically similar to the question hairs that you found on these items that you examined.
Sakevicius: It's possible.
Price: Ok.
The Court: Did you say "questioned hair"?
Price: Excuse me, questioned fiber, my mistake. Alright, in addition the - did you also find three red cotton fibers?
Sakevicius: Yes, I did.
Price: Ok, you can go ahead and refer to your report on that.
Sakevicius: Three red, cotton fibers microscopically similar to those used in the construction of E-92, recovered from E-1, E-3, and BR-1.
Price: Alright. E-92, that would have been a t-shirt found at Damien Echols' house?
Sakevicius: Uh - correct.
Price: Ok. And then you mentioned, one of those hairs was found on E-1. That would have been the boy scout shirt?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Price: Alright. And another of the three red cotton fibers was recovered from E-3, that's the same pair of pants that we talked about earlier?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Price: Ok. And you also mentioned a third fibers was found, BR-1?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Price: And was that a - some type of a bag that was found out at the crimescene?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Price: Ok. Um - do your notes indicate if there were - yeah, I think on page 2 of your June 29th, 1993 report. Um - do your notes indicate that there were several items found in this particular bag?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Price: Alright, and what are those other items?
Sakevicius: Ok. We have a pair of blue jeans, a black thermal undershirt, a pair of white socks, 2 bic razors, 1 plastic bag, and 1 tan short sleeve shirt.
Price: Ok. Alright, and when you um - I believe you testified earlier that June the 3rd was when you, uh - the day my client was arrested, went to his house and did the search, looking for the fibers.
Sakevicius: Correct.
Price: And that's - you described that procedure earlier. And then at the conclusion uh - when you came back to the lab and started doing your tests and issued your report on June the 29th, at that time is when you discovered that - that these three red cotton fibers were microscopically similar to the - a red t-shirt that you found at the home of Damien Echols?
Sakevicius: That's the date that I reported it out.
Price: Ok. And in addition, is it also um - common practice for you to go back and check the homes of the victims to see if there's any items there that might possibly match questioned hairs that you find?
Sakevicius: Actually, none of this case has been common practice for me.
Price: Ok.
Sakevicius: This is the first time I ever participated in a search and it's the first time that I ever went to the victim's home either, but this was done.
Price: Alright. You had indicated on June the 3rd - well, the report was issued on June the 29th um - did you have an occassion on or about December the 20th to go to the homes of some of the victims?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Price: Alright. And you went to the home of uh - the former home of Chris Byers and also Michael Moore?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Price: Ok. And at that time, did you um - come into possession of an item at the Michael Moore home, I believe you have identified - or in your report, and this is on January 17th, 1994 report - MM1, which would have been one red shirt?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Price: Ok. And did you also test the um - the fibers found on the red shirt, MM1 and compare these to the - to the three questioned hairs that you uh - three cotton questioned hairs, you referred to earlier?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Price: Alright. And what was the result of that examination?
Sakevicius: That they were also similar to the questioned fibers. I can not exclude MM1 as the source of those red fibers.
Price: Alright. So the - the red t-shirt found at Damien Echols' house and the red shirt found at Michael Moore's house and these three red uh - cotton fibers that were found down at the crimescene are all um - microscopically similar?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Price: And if there are other red cotton fibers, which the dyes are similar, um - they're out there, they could also be microscopically similar?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Price: Alright. One moment, your Honor.
(pause)
(mumbling)
Price: Alright, to your knowledge, did the West Memphis police department ever ask you to check any possible hairs that may have been on a kershaw knife?
Sakevicius: I've examined alot of knives, I would have to say, 'Are my initials on it?'
Price: Uh - I don't see them on here. Uh - No, your initials are not on this particular knife.
Sakevicius: Then I probably did not examine it.
Price: Ok. (mumble)
(pause)
Price: Alright, in addition, you had testified earlier that there was one negro hair that you have come into contact with in connection with this case?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Price: Alright, and this hair came from - I believe it was, FP1 - excuse me, FP10?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Price: And this was a white sheet that was used to cover the body of Christopher Byers?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Price: Now, when you recieved that particular hair - have you been able to compare that one negro type hair with any other hairs that you might have been sent during this examination?
Sakevicius: No, I have not.
Price: Ok. Is it a uh - I don't know if 'common' is the right word. Is it a - sometimes in doing hair comparisons, do you sometimes recieve a hair that might belong to a police officer that might be out at the crimescene to rule out that particular police officer as the source of a particular hair?
Sakevicius: Yes, I did. I did in this case.
Price: Alright. To your knowledge, did you ever recieve any negro type hairs from any West Memphis police officers to compare with this question hair?
Sakevicius: No, I did not.
Price: Nothing further.
(pause)
Ford: This is uh - E-2, the shirt that you examined?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Ford: State's exhibit number 44. It's a um - polka dotted shirt. It's um - inside out.
Sakevicius: Correct.
Ford: When you recieved that shirt, do you recall whether it was inside out or right side out?
Sakevicius: The shirt was inside out.
Ford: Inside out, ok. Did you rec - do you know where you recovered the fiber from?
Sakevicius: No, I don't.
Ford: You don't know whether it was on the inside, the outside?
Sakevicius: I don't -
Ford: - Front, back, sleeve?
Sakevicius: I don't label my tapes as to the exact area. I just label that they came from that particular item.
Ford: So, if - if the fiber had - in respect to the pair of pants that you testified about, if - that could have come from the inside of the pocket, could it not?
Sakevicius: Uh - I don't believe I pulled the pockets inside out and taped them. I just taped the outsides of the garment.
Ford: Just the - ok, alright. I previously - you gave to us your slides that you prepared.
Sakevicius: Yes, and also slides prepared by another examiner.
Ford: Ok. Would you - would you look through there and get out the slides for uh - E-2 and E-99, please ma'am?
(pause)
Sakevicius: Somebody have a knife? (laugh)
The Court: Here you go.
Sakevicius: Thank you.
(pause)
Sakevicius: Well, I'll get it here in a moment.
(pause)
Ford: Is it in this one?
Sakevicius: Probably.
Ford: Did you see it in this one?
Sakevicius: You requested E-2 and -
Ford: E-2 and E-99.
Sakevicius: Ok. Just a second.
(pause)
Ford: Now look at those please.
(pause)
Ford: This - this first slide, would you identify the markings that are on that?
Sakevicius: Ok. The case number, the item number, the fact that it's a questioned fiber, identified that it is red rayon and I had it labeled as a match with E-99.
Ford: Ok. Is that the fiber that you found on this shirt?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Ford: Is that the entire fiber?
Sakevicius: I believe so.
Ford: That's the entirety of the fiber?
Sakevicius: I believe so.
Ford: Your Honor, I'd like to mark this as Baldwin exhibit number 1.
Fogleman: Can I see it?
The Court: Oh, alright.
(pause)
Fogleman: We're not going to object to it.
(pause)
Ford: Lisa, I'm going to show you another slide and ask if you would identify that slide and the markings on it, please.
Sakevicius: The case number, the item number, the fact that it's a known fiber from the item that is labeled there, it is identified as red rayon, and I have on there that it's mounted in permount.
Ford: Is that the slide that you compared - that you prepared after taking fibers from this bathrobe?
Sakevicius: It's one of the slides, they are from that bathrobe.
Ford: Ok. Alright. So basically what you did was, you took some of the fibers off of that robe, mounted them under this slide?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Ford: Ok. Your Honor, I would like to uh - offer this as uh - Baldwin exhibit number 2, please.
Fogleman: Go ahead, no objects.
The Court: Alright, it may be recieved.
Ford: Your Honor, did you recieve the first slide?
The Court: Yes, I thought I did.
Davis: Judge, one thing I oughtta ask - I don't know, are putting these exhibit stickers on the slide, does that in any way affect the ability to analyze 'em or compare them?
Ford: I didn't put them on the - where the spot - just to clarify that, where the two circles are at the end is where they actually need to look.
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Ford: So those stickers won't affect the ability to uh -
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Ford: Now, what is a - tell the jury what a comparison microscope is, please.
Sakevicius: Ok. It's two microscopes that are bridged together with another optical instrument that has mirrors, it takes the image from each microscope and puts them in the same field of use so that you can examine the fibers side by side, looking at them at the same time.
Ford: Ok. And so in essence what you would do is you would slide - to compare these two fibers together, you would - you would slide one end on one side and one end on the other side and then you could look in the - through the eye pieces of the microscope and see both fibers at the same time?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Ford: And when you did that in this case, did they look the same to you?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Ford: Ok. And at that point, you're looking at their color -
Sakevicius: - Yes.
Ford: - You're looking at their diameter.
Sakevicius: Yes.
Ford: Are you looking at the pattern of the illustrance?
Sakevicius: I don't believe there were delustrance in these.
Ford: Ok. So you don't think there were any delustrance, and that's that fiber - that's that stuff, that titanium oxide -
Sakevicius: Dioxide.
Ford: Dioxide, that you add to the fiber to take some of the sheen out of it?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Ford: Ok. And so you didn't see any of those in these fibers?
Sakevicius: I didn't.
Ford: Ok. If they were there, the pattern that they would have in the fiber, that would be important, wouldn't it?
Sakevicius: Uh - sometimes you can see differences in patterns, I'd have to look at all - at a great number of the standard to determine if there's a followable pattern.
Ford: Ok. Um - now, if there's been testimony in this case that someone went to a grocery store and - and uh - let me get the right sack. Suffice it to say, let's say there has been testimony that someone went to the grocery store and got these bags, a whole bunch of 'em. And people started putting clothing directly into the - those paper sacks at the scene - took them directly from the water and put them in the bag, is there any way to determine whether or not there was fiber inside that bag that could attach to the clothing?
Sakevicius: I don't know about the manufacturing process or packaging of grocery bags.
Ford: Ok. This white paper that ya'll have - that you say you put the clothes back in -
Sakevicius: Yes.
Ford: You know that that is a clean piece of paper?
Sakevicius: That's why we use it.
Ford: And you use it so that you make sure that the paper doesn't place any fibers onto the garment itself, is that correct?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Ford: Ok. And the crime lab takes great care to make sure that they - that that paper is not a source of evidence, correct?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Ford: But as far as that paper sack is concerned, that's - you know, nothing was done by you or your lab to make sure that there was nothing inside the paper sack itself, is that correct?
Sakevicius: All evidence submitted to the lab is in garb - paper sacks like this, all I can say is we take it for granite that they're clean.
Ford: You take it for granite that they're clean?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Ford: Ok. Now, when you - let's go back to the comparison microscope for a minute. Um - you looked at them under that visual medium where you can see 'em both at the same time, and they looked the same?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Ford: Ok. What qualities at that time did you see that made them the same to you?
Sakevicius: Their color, their shape, the striations -
Ford: What - hang on just a second, I want - the color, the shape, what was that other one?
Sakevicius: Striations.
Ford: What - and what is that?
Sakevicius: In this particular fiber, uh - the cross section is not completely round, it's sort of cloud or daisy shaped and under the microscope this will look like lines or striations.
Ford: Ok.
Sakevicius: They were - both fiber types were striated.
Ford: Ok. In other words - is that sort of like, maybe, if I took a uh - one little piece of carpet from a rug and I could untwist it, is that what you're talking about - how there's really several different things twisted around to make one piece?
Sakevicius: No. It's more like looking at a six sided pencil, length ways and you can see lines going down it.
Ford: Ok.
Sakevicius: Um - I'll see these lines, but when you look at it in - you can see that the fibers - or that the pencil is not completely round. That it's got sides to it, it's sort of like that, not exactly.
Ford: And the way that's done with a man made fiber is by putting it - at the manufacturing process - putting it through some type of extruder, where they press it through little bity holes and the shape of the hole affects the shape of the string.
Sakevicius: That's true, but I believe on a rayon the drying process also inparts some of these striations.
Ford: Ok.
Sakevicius: To the fiber.
Ford: Did you do anything, in your testing, to in any way alter the fabric?
Sakevicius: Yes, I did.
Ford: Ok, tell the jury what you did that altered the fabric and which one of these two, did you alter.
Sakevicius: I altered both. What I do, when I do my uh - infared analysis, the foyertransforminfared analysis, I'll take and flatten the fiber. And this causes my spector that I get to be much cleaner and noise free. Um - it helps me to see the peaks alot better and I did this process to the standard and to the question fiber.
Ford: Ok. And what did you do to flatten it?
Sakevicius: I used a scapel. I placed the fiber on a glass slide and I squished it.
Ford: Ok. So this fiber that we have here, is squished? This is Baldwin exhibit number 1, which was the question fiber.
Sakevicius: Correct.
Ford: This is squished. Do we have one that's unsquished?
Sakevicius: Of that?
Ford: Yeah.
Sakevicius: No.
Ford: Ok, so the only one we have left is one that you have uh - altered.
Sakevicius: Correct.
Ford: After you did the comparison microscope, and you saw that they looked the same. And you looked at the shape, the color, and the striations what did you do next?
Sakevicius: I put it under the microspectrophotometer and there, I examined the color and more detail with the instrument that can see better than I, the color or the dyes absorb their color at.
Ford: Ok. Is that called - is that used polarized light?
Sakevicius: You can make it polarized, but that's not the purpose of that instrument.
Ford: Ok. Did you use - did you use a microscope where you can put the slide and turn it around and - where the slide spins?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Ford: Ok. What test was that?
Sakevicius: That comes under the microscopic.
Ford: Ok. And were - and does - did you do anything to do with the different type of light to see -
Sakevicius: - Polarized mic - yes, I used polarized light. You look at the birefringants and the side of enlongation with polarized light.
Ford: Ok. And when you put that - when you put the question fiber on that microscope where you spin it - where the slide spins it around, will the fiber change in color?
Sakevicius: I don't recall.
Ford: Ok. And do you recall whether you took the two slides and spun them both around to see if they change colors differently.
Sakevicius: I do that everytime I put fibers on the microscope, it's just standard procedure.
Ford: Ok. Alright, so you would have taken both of these slides and put them on a microscope that uses that type of light, spin them around and make sure they change colors the same way.
Sakevicius: You're speaking of pleacroism, yes I would do that.
Ford: Ok. And in this case, that was exact, is that correct?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Ford: They changed colors in the same pattern?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Ford: Ok. Now you also indicate that you put the fiber through some kind of process to draw - make a graph?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Ford: Is that -
Sakevicius: - I put it through two processes that draw a graph.
Ford: Ok. And in order for them to be similar, you would want to find a graph pattern like that, would you not?
Sakevicius: Something similar to that, yes.
Ford: Ok. Lisa, since you're the person who did this, would you draw - please, the type of graph you would expect to be - you would expect to find if they were - if they had the same dyes and the same colors, etc.
Sakevicius: I have the graph I did, would you like to see it?
Ford: Yeah, I would.
(pause)
(mumble)
Sakevicius: This is the infared graph, I also have a microspectrophotometer graph.
(pause)
Ford: Is the - which one is the top?
Sakevicius: The top one is E-2, the question. The bottom one is the - I'm sorry, that's the FBI library, I've got another one. Here we are. Ok, the top one is the standard, the bottom one is the question.
Ford: And they're identical?
Sakevicius: In my opinion.
Ford: (talking over, can't understand.)
Sakevicius: In my op - yes.
Ford: Now, did you run these before or after you altered the fiber?
Sakevicius: This one is after, and this one is before.
Ford: Ok. Now Lisa, are you telling this jury - are you telling this jury that the fiber that you found on this shirt, came from this robe?
Sakevicius: No, I'm not.
Ford: Ok. The water - you went to the crimescene, didn't you?
Sakevicius: Yes, I did.
Ford: And you saw that ditch.
Sakevicius: Yes, I saw the ditch.
Ford: And saw the condition of the water.
Sakevicius: There was no water at the time I was there.
Ford: OK. Alright. Would you agree with me that the water itself - with the stuff that floats in water, that water itself could be the source of this red fiber, couldn't it?
Sakevicius: I can't say what the source of the red fiber is.
Ford: But you definately can't say it's from this robe, can you?
Sakevicius: I can't say what the source is, only that they're similar.
Ford: Ok. Now let's go back to these knots. Do you have any evidence whatsoever that Jason Baldwin tied any of those knots?
Sakevicius: No, I do not.
Ford: Do you have any evidence whatsoever to indicate who tied those knots?
Sakevicius: I have, I can't tell that from my examination.
Ford: Ok. So you don't know who tied the knots, and you definately don't know - you're definately not telling the jury that Jason Baldwin tied those knots?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Ford: And you're definately not telling this jury that you found a fiber on this shirt that came from this robe?
Sakevicius: I'm not saying that.
Ford: Pass the witness.
Fogleman: Lisa, let's start with these graphs. I wanna mark - let's mark the before graph, before you flattened the fiber, is 93, is this the before graph?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: We're gonna mark that 93. And then, I wanna mark the after it's been flattened graph, 94.
Sakevicius: I would like for it to be clear that these are two different analysis.
Fogleman: Two different tests?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Alright. Now if you could - could write on 93, the - that that's a before uh - flattening part of the fiber.
(pause)
Fogleman: Flat, ok, that's enough right there. Ok, now I want - and at the top, what did you write above the -
Sakevicius: Microspectrophotometry. That's the particular analysis here and that's the dye analysis.
Fogleman: Alright. And then state's exhibit 94, if you would write after.
(pause)
Sakevicius: This is the infared analysis and that's for the polymer - or not polymer in this case, but the uh - uh - the chemical structure of the fiber.
Fogleman: Alright and in - now tell us again why you flattened the fiber.
Sakevicius: Infared analysis, if the fiber is not flat, sometimes it can scatter the beam as it goes through the fiber and this gives you a noisey spectra. It's easier to read and get a crisper spectra if you flatten it.
Fogleman: Your Honor, we would offer state's exhibit 93 and 94.
Ford: No objection.
The Court: Alright, they may be recieved. Do you have the standard with 'em?
Sakevicius: (mumbling)
Fogleman: Let me ask you real quick, just so it's understood. On 94, the top graph relates to what fiber?
Sakevicius: That's from the standard, E-99.
Fogleman: The known?
Sakevicius: It's a known.
Fogleman: That means one that you knew came from this robe?
Sakevicius: KF stands for known fiber. QF stands for questioned fiber.
Fogleman: Alright. And the bottom is the question fiber, which you got off of this shirt, which uh - is state's exhibit 44.
Sakevicius: Correct.
Fogleman: May I exhibit to the jury, your Honor?
The Court: Yes.
Fogleman: Now, in relation to - once you flattened - did you flatten the whole fiber or just a portion of it?
Sakevicius: I don't recall.
Fogleman: Ok. If - when you flatten a fiber, what does that do to the color of the fiber?
Sakevicius: It will lighten it.
Fogleman: OK. And why is that?
Sakevicius: Because you've spread the color out. It's sort of like a glass of water vs. the ocean, the more color that you put in one spot the more you can see it. And when I flattened it, that spreads it out making it - the color thinner or lighter.
Fogleman: Alright. In - Mr. Ford asked you - you know, you weren't saying that Jason aldwin tied those knots, remember that?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Fogleman: You're not saying he didn't tie the knots, are you?
Sakevicius: I can't say.
Fogleman: Alright. Alright, also there was a question they asked - asked about the cotton fiber and the match. And then also about some red cotton fibers found at - that matched not only a shirt from Damien's but also a garment from the Moore's house, is that correct?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Fogleman: Alright. And is there some difference in your ability to match cotton fibers as oppose to synthetic fiber?
Sakevicius: There's not a difference in the ability of a match, but there's less signifigance of the match.
Fogleman: Ok. What do you mean by there is less signifigance of a match of cotton fibers?
Sakevicius: Cotton is much more common, in fact there are some types of cotton we won't even analyze for, very light colors or blue denim. We don't examine for because they're too common.
Fogleman: Now in relation to how common the fiber is, a fiber like that found in uh - state's exhibit uh - 88, the robe, uh - how common were these fibers in your experience in examinations in the lab?
Sakevicius: I don't come across them nearly as much as I do cotton.
Fogleman: Alright, also on the slide - on the known slide that's been introduced in evidence, you can see a little red spot in - is there more than one fiber there?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Ok. And in the Baldwin exhibit 1, uh - how many fibers?
Sakevicius: There's just one.
Fogleman: There's just one.
(pause)
Fogleman: Alright now, you did come to West Memphis at the request of the police department to get some fibers uh - known fibers for comparison from the victims' homes, is that right?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Fogleman: And you got those from the Moore's house and the Byers' house, is that right?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Fogleman: And why didn't you get any from the Branch's house?
Sakevicius: I don't believe their residence was intact anymore. Wasn't in town or - I'm not quite sure.
Fogleman: Ok. Now in relation to these clothes, where the - the disposable razors and there were a number of clothing items - I think it was listed as BR1?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Fogleman: Could you check your notes about the condition of those clothes when you got those?
Sakevicius: I have 1 razor, it has a broken head not completely broke off. All items packaged together in a brown paper bag. Uh - no attempt made to discriminate where the fibers originated, meaning which particular item because they were all packaged together. They were wet. Uh - they were also moldy.
Fogleman: Moldy?
Sakevicius: Moldy.
Fogleman: Ok. The clo - this clothing, BR1, this group of clothing was moldy?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Alright. Any of the clothing - the victims' clothing that you got moldy?
Sakevicius: No.
Fogleman: Your Honor, can I have just a moment?
(pause)
Fogleman: Alright. Back on the red cotton fibers that you had originally reported matched the garment from Damien Echols' home, which as a result of further investigation you concluded that it also matched a garment from the Moore's home. You can't say which home that came from?
Ford: Your Honor, I object to the question because he keeps using the language 'matched'. She's testified that they're not matches, but they're microscopically similar. And I'd ask that he not indicate to the jury that they're matches when that's not her testimony.
The Court: Alright.
Ford: I object to the form of the question.
Fogleman: I'll rephrase.
The Court: Alright, rephrase your question.
Fogleman: In - the microscopic characteristics are similar, is that correct?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Fogleman: Alright. Now in relation to the uh - on these red cotton fibers, you found that they matched a garment - or was similar in characteristics to a garment from Damien Echols' house?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Fogleman: And you later, as a result of futher investigation found that those fibers could um - also have come from a garment from the Moore's house.
Sakevicius: Correct.
Fogleman: Alright, in looking at the fibers in clothing from the Baldwin's house, the Echols' house, the Misskelley's house, the Moore's house, and the Byers' house did you find any other garments with fibers that were similar in characteristics to exhibit 88, the robe?
Sakevicius: No.
Fogleman: Did you find any other fibers the were similar in characteristics in uh - to the shirt?
Sakevicius: No.
Fogleman: I don't have any further question, your Honor.
Price: Can we approach the bench, your Honor?
Ford: Judge, I have a couple more questions, your Honor.
Price: Go ahead.
Ford: Did you say you found a razor out - there was a razor in the bag? Like a bic razor?
Sakevicius: There were two of 'em.
Ford: Ok. And that they were partially broken?
Sakevicius: Atleast one of them was.
Ford: Was the guard - the bottom part of the guard was what broken off?
Sakevicius: I don't recall.
Ford: Was the handle broken off?
Sakevicius: I don't recall.
Ford: Now you - you live and work in Little Rock, is that correct?
Sakevicius: I don't live there, but I work there.
Ford: Ok. And you drove from Little Rock, or surrounding area, to West Memphis to two homes?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Ford: But you didn't drive from Little Rock to Blythville to check the residence of another home?
Sakevicius: Um - no.
Ford: You never went to Blythville to look in the uh - uh - home that Stevie Branch lived in?
Sakevicius: Correct.
Ford: Ok. Did you ever go to the residence of Stevie's father - mom and dad are divorced, who still lived in West Memphis, did you ever go to his house?
Sakevicius: No.
Ford: So you only went to two of the four residences of the victims family, is that right?
Sakevicius: I'll take your word for it.
Ford: Ok.
Fogleman: Who are four?
Ford: There's two Branches - two Branch households.
Sakevicius: I only went to two households.
Ford: Ok. Lisa would you agree with me that this is a woman's robe?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Ford: Ok. Now do you remember where you found that robe?
Sakevicius: I think it was from a bedroom in the back.
Ford: Ok. You remember where in the bedroom it was?
Sakevicius: I think the closet, I'm not certain.
Ford: You think a closet, do you know if it was hanging, folded, laying in the floor?
Sakevicius: That, I don't know.
Ford: Ok. One more time about the - Baldwin exhibit number 1, which is the question fiber, is that the entire fiber?
Sakevicius: I believe so.
Ford: Ok. Although you flattened part of it, you didn't discard part of it - this is it in it's entirety?
Sakevicius: I believe so.
Ford: Ok. Lastly, did you ever look at the knife to determine whether - if there was a red fiber in this knife, that might be microscopically similar to the fiber that you found on this shirt? Did you ever do that?
Sakevicius: I don't think so, I did not - have not labeled that items as being looked at.
Ford: Ok. So if there has been testimony previously that there was a red fiber visible in there, you never looked at that red fiber to see if it matched to the fiber, Baldwin's exhibit number 1?
Sakevicius: If it was visible to the naked eye, it probably did not match.
Ford: Ok. But you did not look, you did not do that, did you?
Sakevicius: No.
Ford: Ok. Pass the witness.
Price: Can we approach the bench, your Honor?
The Court: Alright.
Fogleman: I don't have any further questions.
(bench conference)
The Court: I want one of ya to ask whether or not - you know, this, about the type - I want somebody to ask - or I will, whether or not fiber could commonly transfer from washing and drying in the household. Alright, what's your question?
Davidson: Your Honor, the uh - fiber that was visible in there the other day is no longer there.
The Court: Gee, what do you want me to do?
Davison: I don't know. But I think we need to um -
The Court: I'm sure we can find -
Davidson: - (can't understand) said it was there. I mean, he looked at it and said it was there and that he transferred it over -
The Court: Well, I don't know -
Fogleman: - I saw a red fiber in there too. I don't remember if it was there when we got the knife, but I did see a red fiber.
The Court: I don't have any idea how to answer that question.
(pause)
The Court: You don't think it's about time for a recess do ya?
Fogleman: I'll ask her this question about -
The Court: Alright.
(open court)
Fogleman: One more question, uh - in the secondary transfer of fibers uh - what happens when clothes are washed together?
Sakevicius: Fibers are redistributed around.
Fogleman: Ok, is that another way of getting secondary transfer of fiber? You wash your clothes together and then you get fibers from another - like I had a fiber from some other uh - my clothing that got on this shirt and I came into contact with Mr. Davis and it could transfer?
Sakevicius: That's correct.
Fogleman: I don't have any further questions, your Honor.
The Court: Anything else?
Price: Nothing further, Judge.
Ford: So, it's also possible - isn't it, Lisa, based on that question that the red fiber could have been on that little - that young man's shirt that morning when he got up and put it on and went to school? 'Cause it could have gotten in the dryer from some other source in his own household, couldn't it?
Sakevicius: I can't say what the source it -
Ford: Ok.
Sakevicius: - Of the fiber.
Ford: But that - but that shirt being washed and dried with another shirt could be the very source of the red fiber transfer, could it not? That's possible, isn't it?
Sakevicius: Which household was that from?
Ford: I don't know, they never identified what shirt - that came from. So that washing and drying could be the source of the fiber and he could have - he could have had the red fiber on that shirt.
Sakevicius: Some of the households we examined for this fiber type, if this is one of the households examined for that fiber type, I would say it didn't come from washing his clothes there.
Ford: Ok. But if it came from the other two households, it could have, correct?
Sakevicius: The two households we examined.
Ford: Ok. And the other two households could be the source. Correct?
Sakevicius: If that person was from one of those households.
Ford: Alright. That's all. Thank you.
Price: Nothing further.
The Court: Alright, do we need to keep her in attendance?
Fogleman: Uh - your Honor, she makes - from the - she can go back to Little Rock, but we may need to recall her at a later time.
The Court: Alright, you're free to go. Alright ladies and gentlemen uh - we're going to take a - is there any reason why we can't take our noon recess now?
(mumbling)
The Court: Wanna come back at 12:30 or 1?
Price: 1.
Fogleman: Your Honor, there - if I could approach the bench.
(bench conference)
Fogleman: It depends on how long they're going to question - I think Lisa probably rode up here with Ralph -
The Court: Uh huh.
Fogleman: And - you know, if they're going to question Ralph a long time, all I want to put him up there, to show -
The Court: What's he gonna do, the hair?
Fogleman: No. Fingerprint. That he examined -
The Court: - Were there?
Fogleman: No, that's the point. That's what he's here - that he examined items, things in water - you know, you -
Price: (mumbling)
Fogleman: You know, it depends on how long - well, I want him to be able to testify about the affect of water on the - on items, It just depends on if they're gonna cross - if examine - if they're not gonna cross examine him, well, I want to go ahead and do it.
The Court: Ok.
Fogleman: But I don't know how long they're gonna cross examine.
Price: I don't know what to say, Judge.
The Court: Ok. Let's go ahead and come back.
Fogleman: Ok.
The Court: Alright ladies and gentlemen, I'm going to allow you to take your noon recess at this time, with the usual admonition not to discuss the case among yourselves or with anyone. You may stand in recess until 1:00.
(tape turned off, then resumes with the following)
The Court: Alright, court will be in session. Call your next witness.
Fogleman: Alright, your Honor, I need to recall uh - Lisa Sakevicius.
The Court: Alright.
(mumbling)
Fogleman: Ms. Sakevicius, I want to show you what I have marked for identification purposes as state's exhibit 95 and ask if you can identify that.
Sakevicius: Yes, I can. This is my item BR1, with the case number and my initials.
Fogleman: Alright. And what is that?
Sakevicius: This is the clothing that was recovered from the pipe near the scene.
Fogleman: Alright. Now are those clothing that you talked about that had a dispo - a couple of disposable bic razors and that were moldy?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Alright. If you could - if you could remove those clothes and - at the bottom, if you can get to the disposable bic razors.
(pause)
The Court: You need gloves?
(no voice response)
(pause)
(mumbling)
Fogleman: Alright. And here on the - this one, is it the handle that's broken on the bic razor?
Sakevicius: No, it's this part right here. Where the head is joined to the handle.
Fogleman: Alright. Where the head is joined to the handle?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: And uh - when you examined them before, did it have these guards on -
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Your Honor, we would offer state's exhibit uh - 95.
Price: (mumbling)
Sakevicius: You want me to put that back in?
The Court: Any objection?
Ford: No objection.
Price: No objection, your Honor.
The Court: Alright it may be recieved.
Sakevicius: Want me to put that back in the bag?
Fogleman: Yeah.
(pause)
Fogleman: Now Ms. Sakevicius, uh - Dr. Peretti testified something about a - a blue fiber in or on one of the boy's hand.
Sakevicius: Uh - Yes, that would have been Michael Moore.
Fogleman: Alright. And did you make any comparisons of that fiber with some known fibers?
Sakevicius: Yes, I did. I compared it to fibers that I collected from the mortuary.
Fogleman: Alright. What types - from what type of garment did you collect fibers from?
Sakevicius: They were from a blanket.
Fogleman: Alright. And what was the - after doing - did you do the same tests that you did on the other items?
Sakevicius: Yes, I did.
Fogleman: And what were the results of yourexaminations and tests?
Sakevicius: The - the fiber from the hand was microscopically similar to the fibers from the blanket, I believe they were nylon.
Fogleman: Alright. And the blankets came from the funeral home?
Sakevicius: Yes.
Fogleman: Ok. I don't have any further question, your Honor.
Price: No questions.
The Court: Alright, you may stand down, you're free to go. Call your next witness.
