Fogleman: Detective Allen, you’re the same Detective Allen that has previously testified?
Allen: Yes, sir.
Fogleman: Detective Allen, I want to direct your attention to sometime in October, early November. Were you asked to make contact with some property owners at Lakeshore Trailer Park and also get with the Arkansas State Police dive team?
Allen: Yes, sir, I was.
Fogleman: And, specifically directing your attention to November 17th, 1993, did you take some action in relation to this case?
Allen: Yes, sir, I met with Sergeant Tommy Wicker of the Arkansas State Police and numerous other members of the dive team, including Joel Mullins and Lieutenant Yancey was also assisting them with the Shelby County Sheriff's office.
Fogleman: That’s Tennessee?
Allen: Yes, sir.
Fogleman: And after meeting with Tommy Wicker and the other members of the dive team what did y’all do?
Allen: We went to the area of Lakeshore, the lake itself, and we had two particular areas that the divers were gonna check in the lake, it was in the, it would be the southwest corner of the lake.
Fogleman: I’m gonna show you what’s marked for identification purposes as State’s Exhibit 79 and ask if you can identify that?
Allen: This is a map of--that was done by Castros there in West Memphis, of the areas that we searched, the lake.
Fogleman: If you could, your Honor, I think without objection, I hope I’m not presuming too much, but I think without objection we would offer State’s Exhibit 79.
(Wadley?): No objection.
Price: No objection.
Davidson: No objection.
The Court: All right, it may be received without objection.
Fogleman: If you would take this blue marker highlighter and along the edge and into the area where the lake is, so the jury will understand where the water is.
Allen: Yes, this, this is the lake area here, these are the property lines, uh, down through here, and the lake front, this would be the property lines, and this would be the lake itself here, this area.
Fogleman: Ok. Make some markings on there.
Allen: This would be the lake here, this whole area here, would be, this whole area
Fogleman: I want you to lay it down, take that highlighter, and draw a line all the way along on both property lines. And then do some diagonal lines there too. Ok that’s probably good. I think they’ll get the picture. All right, and this up in here is water, right?
Allen: Yes, the lake is almost square.
Fogleman: And are you familiar with the location of the residence where Jason Baldwin resided at the time that he was arrested?
Allen: Yes, sir.
Fogleman: All right, take this red marker and outline around that particular lot. All right, fine. All right now, after going to that area, what did you do?
Allen: We assembled with the team of divers at two locations in the lake. The, one team of divers went into, through lot number 244 which is the lot to the west, one lot next to the Baldwin residence. They went through this lot here to the bank and dove in this area. The other, I’d say half of the divers, dived over in this corner, which was a vacant lot, on this side of the lake, that was also--
Fogleman: All right, do you know which lot was the vacant lot? You have notes of that?
Allen: I have--I should have my notes, let me refer to them, I’ll tell you in a minute. (Pause) Should be lot 37 and 36, here.
Fogleman: If you can take this marker and outline those lots.
(mumbling)
Allen: 37 and 36. The lot 36 was a vacant lot. 37 was the, owner of lot 36.
Fogleman: So there is a residence on 37?
Allen: There was a trailer on 37. and the guy that lived in that trailer owned lot 36, which was a vacant lot. Which was a vacant lot, a vacant area.
Fogleman: All right, along 37, just so we don’t get confused, write trailer on there. And 36 was a vacant lot?
Allen: Yes, sir.
Fogleman: And if you could take, that pen and just draw in general the area that was searched, in, approximately lot 36 in general without—
Allen: In general as a—
(pause)
Fogleman: All right. And, was a similar area searched in relation to lot 45, which was the residence of the defendant Jason Baldwin at the time of his arrest?
The Court: Gentlemen, approach the bench just a minute.
(Bench Conference)
The Court: Shouldn’t I make another cautionary instruction?
(Unidentified?): Not necessarily, Judge.
The Court: A cautionary instruction about who it relates to.
(Unidentified): I don’t have a problem with that—(mumbling)
The Court: Ok, fine. That’s what I wanted to know.
(mumbling)
Price: Are they saying they’re going to use this against us?
Fogleman: Your Honor, there’s a particular witness who may testify later who has said she has seen Damien with a knife like this.
The Court: All right. All right, go ahead, you may proceed.
Fogleman: All right, and what did the divers do, or what did you see done? I know you couldn’t run under the water with them but what did you see done?
Allen: The divers, uh, one diver on each location, and there was a diver, I guess a safety diver that stayed on the bank in case the other diver got in trouble because of the cold water at that time. There was another diver, or helper, that manned some ropes and they used some kind of pattern of search to where they went, or the diver would hold the rope and they would go, I guess make a sweep, and go to another section of the rope and make a sweep.
Fogleman: All right. You had people manning ropes?
Allen: We had people manning ropes.
Fogleman: All right, and after a period of time of searching, do you know whether any items were recovered?
Allen: Yes, sir.
Fogleman: All right. I wanna show you what has been marked for identification purposes as State’s Exhibit 77, and ask if you can identify that?
Allen: Yes, uh, I can identify this by my, uh, 11-17 of 93, M Allen. That I put here for future reference for identification on the handle on this knife.
Fogleman: When did you place your, uh, M Allen and the date? When was that placed on there?
Allen: Upon getting back to the police department with this object that same day.
Fogleman: All right, and where did you receive that item? Where did you get the knife?
Allen: I got this knife from Joel, uh, diver with the State police.
Fogleman: Would you like to check your notes?
Allen: Joel Mullins is his name.
Fogleman: And where did you obtain the knife?
(BLANK AUDIO)
Allen: --the knife, I had a, uh, I took it there and Yancey, Lieutenant Yancey with the Shelby County Sheriffs Department advised me that I needed to put it in something that would hold water to keep it preserved because he was informed, he’d evidently done that type of, getting things out of the water before where the evidence wouldn’t be disturbed, put it in the same water.
Fogleman: So you got something to contain--
Allen: I got a container. And placed, put some lake water in the container and placed the knife in there and transported it.
Fogleman: All right, now, did you also participate in making some measurements?
Allen: I was present when the measurements, I was a recorder of the measurements--
Fogleman: Did you--
Allen: --so I was present at that time.
Fogleman: And what items were used to measure from?
Allen: The grouping of trees that is in the property line between the Baldwin residence and the lot there, there’s a grouping of trees and a satellite dish which is on the next permanent structure that we could find, there weren’t any, look like a permanent structure was used, the satellite dish which was one property over, that was mounted
Fogleman: All right. And what did you record as the distance from the trees to the location where the knife was found?
Allen: Forty-seven, forty--
Fogleman: You can check your notes.
Allen: Ok. Forty-seven foot from the grouping of trees from this tree that was, that would be on this side here from the outside of it to the location that the, located the knife here.
Fogleman: Ok. And how far was it from the location where the knife was found to the satellite dish?
Allen: It was one hundred feet, six inches.
Fogleman: All right. Now, was, did somebody give you a degree of the angle?
Allen: Yes, sir.
Fogleman: All right. And what angle did they give you to record?
Allen: Uh, they advised me to record, to write down 30 degree heading.
Fogleman: All right. Detective Allen, I want to show you two aerial photographs marked for identification as State’s Exhibit 75 and 76. (Pause) See if you can identify those photographs.
Allen: Yes, sir, these are aerial--
Fogleman: Wait a minute. Can you identify them?
Allen: Yes, sir.
Fogleman: Do they fairly and accurately portray the scene as it appeared to you?
Allen: Yes, sir.
Fogleman: All right. Your Honor, we would offer State’s Exhibits 75 and 76.
Wadley: We don’t have any objection.
Davidson: No objection.
The Court: All right, they may be received without objection. You may exhibit.
Fogleman: Your Honor, may Detective Allen step down?
The Court: Yes.
Fogleman: Detective Allen, if you would, starting with State’s Exhibit 75, if you could exhibit to the jury and uh, point out to the jury the items that you have referred to in your testimony.
Allen: Ok. As, this trailer here is the Baldwin trailer.
Fogleman: All right, let me ask you a question. What is this item right there?
Allen: This is a fishing pier.
Fogleman: All right, could you circle that? All right. All right and then if you could, point out the grouping of trees that were used to measure.
Allen: This is the grouping of trees, which is, as you see there’s a chain link fence down the property line here and the grouping of trees right here. This is the grouping of trees that was point of measure here.
Fogleman: All right, and is the satellite dish visible in--
Allen: In this photograph I -- it’s visible here behind this white fence over back at this lot here.
Fogleman: Could you circle, could you circle the satellite dish? Ok, and circle the--
Allen: The tree--
Fogleman: Yeah. And if you could, point out again which of the trailers was the Baldwin residence?
Allen: Baldwin residence is the trailer here with the gray car parked out here in the front, this one with the fishing pier directly behind it.
Fogleman: All right, now if you could go to State’s Exhibit 76. You can do the same thing. Now, is this taken from a little bit different angle?
Allen: This is taken from, uh, this is taken from a different angle, this photograph right -- taken from a different angle getting the other, in this photograph, this would be the fishing pier which was referred to in this other photograph. Here would be the, uh, the other side of the bank that the divers also searched and this vacant lot here. This would be the trailer that was referred to, circled where the guy here owned this lot here. And the divers went off of this bridge here and the diver--
Fogleman: Could you again circle the pier behind Jason Baldwin’s residence? All right, now, if you would in referring to the diagram again where the jury can see the, take the pointer if you would, and point those items out again.
Allen: This right here is the grouping of trees that you see in those photographs that I have circled. In this diagram here the fishing pier is not there, but it’s, it comes off right in this area right here, and comes out, and the satellite dish is photographed, I mean it’s drawn in here. 106--100 foot, 6 inches from the satellite dish to the location. And from the grouping of trees, forty-seven feet.
Fogleman: All right. You can retake the stand Officer. Detective Allen, if you would, take that red marker and just put a red dot in that location where the knife was located. Ok. I don’t have any further questions at this time, your Honor.
Davidson: I just have a couple for you, Detective Allen. Now, this diagram, State’s number 79 that’s just a part of the lake, is that correct?
Allen: That is the southwest corner.
Davidson: And the lake is actually much bigger than the portion depicted on this exhibit, is that correct?
Allen: Yes, sir.
Davidson: How many trailer lots are there out there?
Allen: I have no idea.
Davidson: Don’t have any idea?
Allen: No, sir.
Davidson: How many docks are there out there?
Allen: Uh, I’d be guessing, I don’t know, probably, I don’t know, thirty.
Davidson: How many boat ramps are there out there?
Allen: I’ve been in Crittenden County since ‘81 and, I’ve never seen a boat on that lake, I’ve seen--
Davidson: How many boat ramps?
Allen: Boat ramps?
Davidson: Yes.
Allen: Don’t believe they have any.
Davidson: I’m handing you an item, can you look on there and see if you can determine if there’s a boat ramp out there?
Allen: In this photograph, there’s a boat ramp.
Davidson: And is that--
Allen: In this drawing.
Davidson: And did that drawing come out of your police investigation file?
Allen: This was one when they set up from the, I understand when they first incorporated this area. This is what the drawing was--
Davidson: And--
Allen: --to my knowledge.
Davidson: How many lots are out there in that particular subdivision, how many trailers?
The Court: Are you asking him how many trailers or how many lots?
Davidson: How many trailers and how many lots, I’ll ask it that way.
Allen: I have no earthly idea.
Davidson: Ok, so these pictures that you just introduced, that the jury has, that’s just showing a small portion of that area, is that correct?
Allen: That’s correct.
Davidson: Do you know how many people live out there?
Allen: I don’t have any idea.
Davidson: That’s all I have.
Wadley: Detective, so I can see you… Do you have the photographs or do the jury still have that?
The Court: Yes.
Wadley: Your Honor, if I may I’d like to wait until they--
The Court: All right.
(mumbling)
The Court: There are two of them.
Davidson: Your Honor, may I ask him one more thing before, so I don’t go out of order here. Did you all drag the whole lake, or did the divers search the whole lake or just a certain portion of that lake?
Allen: A certain portion of that lake.
Davidson: And so, even after you discovered something you didn’t continue to look through the whole lake?
Allen: They continued to look in that given area from around where the knife was located.
Davidson: But the whole lake was not dragged, was it?
Allen: No, sir.
Davidson: And the divers didn’t even go over the entire lake, did they?
Allen: No, sir.
Davidson: Now, what day were these individuals charged? What day did y’all charge Damien Echols with this crime?
Allen: It was, I’m not sure the particular date, it was like a month after the, uh, I don’t have the particular date in my mind.
Fogleman: Your Honor, we’ll stipulate they were charged, I believe it was June the third.
Davidson: Was it June the third?
Allen: Yes, sir.
Davidson: And what day was it that you were out there searching this lake?
Allen: This was on 11-17 of 93.
Davidson: November 17th of 1993?
Allen: Yes, sir.
Davidson: That’s all.
The Court: you ready?
Wadley: I was waiting for one of the photographs, Your Honor.
May I approach, Your Honor?
Detective, you made some markings on state's exhibit number 75. If you would uh--would you draw where the knife was found on this photograph, or have you already done that?
Allen: Uh--without, uh--I can give you a general uh--
Wadley: Where do you think it was? Give me a idea--draw on there and put your initials.
Allen: It was a hundred--a hundred foot, six inches from this location and thirty-seven foot--
Wadley: You have other markings on there, Detective, so mark on there where you think that was.
Allen: Let me get my other drawing here.
(pause)
(mumbling)
Wadley: Put your initials by that. Now--now, Detective, the day that you were--the day--I tell ya, step down and show the jury where you have marked on this photograph where you believe by this photograph where this knife was.
Can you show them where on this photograph where you believe it to be?
Allen: It was out uh--now this is not--we had an engineer with the drawings and the--
Wadley: I'm asking you where you believe it to be on this photograph.
Allen: If you're standing at the group of trees, it's directly--almost directly straight out.
(mumbling)
The Court: You've got an objection?
Davis: He may have done what I asked, but Mr. Wadley was cutting off his explanation, at one point I'm sure--
Wadley: Judge, we sure don't want to do that.
The Court: Please don't.
Wadley: I sure don't want to do that.
The Court: Alright, go ahead.
Wadley: Can you show them where you've marked, Detective?
Allen: This is roughly the area, I'm pointing at.
Wadley: Right here, is that correct?
Allen: Yes sir.
Wadley: Ok. And where is the Baldwin trailer?
Allen: Baldwin trailer, is right here.
Wadley: It's which one?
Allen: This is the fishing pier right here, this is the Baldwin trailer, and this is--I believe, uh--Mr. Nelly's car, which is Baldwin's mother's--
Wadley: Ok, this is the Baldwin trailer, is that correct?
Allen: Yes, it is.
Wadley: Ok. Now, did you know what--Detective, I'm sorry, take a seat.
Do you know the depth of that water where the knife was found?
Allen: No sir, I have no idea.
Wadley: Was it deep enough where they had to go out there and actually--could a man walk out there--straight out there and look?
Allen: From just--from all I know, from what I've heard--no sir.
Wadley: Well, you were out there, right?
Allen: Yes sir.
Wadley: And based on what you know, a person couldn't walk out there and retrieve it and come back out?
Allen: From what I gather from talking to one of the divers, no sir.
Wadley: As a matter of fact, you had to have a diver--is that right?
Allen: Yes sir.
Wadley: Ok. Now, when did this search take place?
Allen: When did this search take place?
Wadley: Yes sir.
Allen: Uh--11/17 of '93.
Wadley: Ok. Was this photograph taken on the same day?
Allen: No sir, it was not.
Wadley: When was this photograph taken?
Allen: Uh--I did not take the photograph. It was taken after 11/17 of '93, but, uh--Lt. Sudbury took that photograph with a--in a Memphis helicopter.
Wadley: So, y'all didn't take any photographs the day you were out there did you?
Allen: Yes sir.
Wadley: Did you?
Allen: Yes sir.
Wadley: Ok. Now, before I get into some particularities, Detective, are you telling this jury that this knife is the murder weapon? Is that what you're telling this jury?
Allen: No sir, I'm not telling the jury that.
Wadley: Ok. Now that we got--now that we understand that. You would agree with me, Detective, that this lake is open to anyone--would you agree with that?
Allen: I don't know--I don't know what their rules are out there. I know the old--
Wadley: You know they have--I'm sorry, go ahead.
Allen: I know they have people that own lots that--I would say--I don't know.
Wadley: Do you know if they have any rules as to where you can fish or who can go where or whatever?
Allen: No, not particularly.
Wadley: You don't know that, do you? Do you know how many people out there fish?
Allen: Uh--no sir.
Wadley: Did you go door to door at this trailer park and say--knock on the door and say, "Ma'am, do you fish--sir, do you fish--do you go down to the bank and fish?" Did you ask anyone that?
Allen: No sir.
Wadley: Did you ask them where they go fish?
Allen: I would assume they go fishing from their back pier.
Wadley: Did you go door to door in this trailer park and ask people whether or not they own knives like this?
Allen: No.
Wadley: Did you ask anybody?
Allen: No sir.
Wadley: Did you go door to door at the trailer park and ask them, "Sir, we're conducting an investigation, have you lost a knife in the last--whenever? Have you ever lost a serrated knife out there" Did you ever ask anybody that?
Allen: No sir.
Wadley: Never made that inquiry at all, did you?
Allen: No sir.
Wadley: Now, you got the--the knife was handed to you, correct?
Allen: Yes sir.
Wadley: And you were very careful on how took care of that knife once it was handed to you, correct?
Allen: Yes sir.
Wadley: And the reason that you were very careful is because you wanted to make sure that if there was anything on that knife it could be sent off to the crimelab, correct?
Allen: Yes sir.
Wadley: And in fact, it was sent off to the crimelab, is that correct?
Allen: I hand carried it to the crimelab, no.
Wadley: Ok. Detective, there were no finger prints found on that knife, were there?
Allen: No sir.
Wadley: There was no blood found on that knife, was there?
Allen: No sir.
Wadley: There was nothing found on that knife, is that correct?
Allen: To the best of my knowledge, that's correct.
Wadley: Ok. Now, we any other tests performed on this knife? Other than what I described to you.
Allen: Uh--I would assume, yes sir.
Wadley: Let me ask you this question, was any tests conducted on this knife to determine the age of it?
Allen: The age of that knife?
Wadley: Yes sir.
Allen: How old the knife was?
Wadley: Yes sir. Was that ever done?
Allen: We determined about when that knife was distributed.
Wadley: Do you know the age of this knife?
Allen: Around--roughly, '85--'86. 1985--1986 is when it was distributed.
Wadley: Distributed?
Allen: Distributed. You asked me the age of it, I don't know when it was made in Japan, but--
Wadley: Did you do any metallergy tests on this knife?
Allen: Any--no sir, if the crimelab did--
Wadley: You know what that is, don't ya?
Allen: What kind of test?
Wadley: Metallergy.
Allen: Metallergy?
Wadley: To determine the age of that knife--the metal.
Allen: Uh--no sir, I don't work for the crimelab.
Wadley: Ok. You don't know how old that knife is, do you?
Allen: How old that knife is?
Wadley: Yes sir.
Allen: The best of my knowledge, it was made--like I told you, in '85 or '86 is when--
Wadley: '85 or '86.
Allen: Is when that knife came out.
Wadley: Ok. Now, do you know how long that lake has been where it is?
Allen: No sir. It's been there as long as I've lived in Crittendon county.
Wadley: It's been there a long time, hasn't it?
Allen: I don't know.
Wadley: Do you know who lived in that trailer before Jason lived there?
Allen: No sir.
Wadley: You don't have any idea?
Allen: No sir.
Wadley: Ok. And are you trying to tell this jury that the only person that had access down there to where this knife was found was Jason Baldwin? Is that what you're trying to tell these folks?
Allen: No, I'm not trying to tell this jury that.
Wadley: You've told us that knife--you think the age of it is--what, '85 or '86?
Allen: The knife was distributed in '85--'86 from the information I've been able to nail down on it.
Wadley: So knowing that Detective, then we could make this assumption--couldn't we--we could assume that that knife could have been in that water in 1986, couldn't we? Couldn't we?
Allen: Uh--
Fogleman: Your Honor, we will stipulate, he could assume anything.
Wadley: Judge, I can ask the witness the question.
Fogleman: Well, I was trying to speed things up--we can assume it had been there from '85--'86--'87--
Wadley: I don't want to speed anything up, Your Honor. I can ask those questions.
(mumbling)
The Court: I think you've established that anybody could have thrown it there at any time from 1985 foward.
(mumbling)
The Court: Well, you can ask in that fashion.
(mumbling)
Wadley: Detective Allen, that knife could have been in that lake back in 1986, couldn't it? Could have been, couldn't it?
Allen: I would assume.
Wadley: It could have been in that lake the day before y'all went out there, couldn't it? Isn't that possible?
Allen: From what I've talked to the divers, uh--
Wadley: No, I'm--do you know?
Allen: Do I know?
Wadley: Yes. Do you know?
Allen: Do I personally know?
Wadley: Yeah.
Allen: No, I don't know.
Wadley: After this knife was brought out of the lake, you stopped your search at that time, is that correct?
Allen: No sir. They were uh--in fact, they concentrated the search from the other area over into that area more, when they brought--
Wadley: But in that area right there, you stopped--right?
Allen: Where they found the knife at?
Wadley: Yes sir.
Allen: No. I believe Yancey, that is here today, came over--
Wadley: I'm asking you.
Allen: No, he was there and he came over there and dove in that particular area--they saturated more in that area at that time.
Wadley: Correct.
Allen: Yes sir.
Wadley: Any other place looked at?
Allen: Besides the other area of the--
Wadley: Yes.
Allen: --vacant lot and that, that day--that's it.
Wadley: That's it?
Allen: Yes sir.
Wadley: Ok. Now--if I could ask for just one minute, Your Honor.
(pause)
Wadley: That's all I have, Your Honor.
Fogleman: Detective Allen, uh--were--did any of the other defendants live in Lakeshore?
Allen: The--
Fogleman: Did any of the other defendants live in Lakeshore?
Allen: No sir.
Fogleman: Other than the defendant, Charles Jason Baldwin?
Allen: Charles Jason Baldwin was the only defendant that lived in Lakeshore.
Fogleman: Alright. Now, why was this area near the vacant lot searched?
Allen: That was an accessible point to a girlfriend of Damien Echols--Domini Teer who lived uh--across, down from that location.
Fogleman: Across the street from?
Allen: On Westlake Drive. Uh--that was the only accessible vacant lot that uh--that we would--that we searched because of the connection with the residence of Domini Teer.
Fogleman: Now this uh--state's exhibit 79, that was drawn by the engineer--is that correct?
Allen: Yes sir.
Fogleman: Alright. And the measurements are exact, is that correct?
Allen: Yes sir. They're done by--they were done by an engineer.
Fogleman: And your marking on the photograph, is more of a guesstimate, is that correct?
Allen: More of a guesstimate.
Fogleman: Now this tree that was used as a reference point, uh--can you describe that tree for the jury?
Allen: Well, it was just a--like a--it was just--several trees that came out of, like a--there was a grouping of like three trees--
Fogleman: Ok.
Allen: --That came up.
Fogleman: Approximately how tall was it?
Allen: I--
Fogleman: Well, was it --
(talking over)
Allen: I would guess like uh--it would be uh--I would just be guessing--uh--to the ceiling here in the courtroom.
Fogleman: Ok.
Allen: I don't--
Fogleman: Alright. Uh--Now, Mr. Wadley--I believe it was--asked you about the number of fishing piers out there and all that. Who's fishing pier was closest to where the knife was found?
Allen: Uh--the fishing pier behind the Baldwin residence.
Fogleman: I don't have any further questions, Your Honor.
Wadley: Do you know who may have been on that fishing pier June of '93, July of '93 or August of '93?
Allen: On the Baldwin fishing pier?
Wadley: Yes.
Allen: No sir, I have no idea.
Wadley: No idea. Now, I'm handing you again, a sheet that uh--I believe you looked at earlier--does that sheet show all of the uh--lots as you know them to be out there at the trailer park, rather than just a view in a small corner?
Allen: I would assume--I would assume, yeah.
Wadley: Could you uh--first of all, could you tell us the dimensions of this entire lake?
Allen: The dimension of it?
Wadley: Yes
Allen: Uh--no. I mean--
Wadley: Roughly, how much area was searched?
Allen: I explain that just the areas uh--I don't know how many feet or how many--you know, how far they went out. They just made these circular motions with their ropes. They would be more apt to be able to tell you underwater how far they went out there and what they searched.
Wadley: You don't know how long their ropes were?
Allen: I have no idea.
Wadley: Uh--
Allen: I know they were atleast uh--a hundred foot, six inches that they measured from with those ropes--I believe.
Wadley: Ok. Could you take a uh--this blue pen and mark on there roughly the area that was searched out of the entire lake.
Allen: Now, this would be just--this would be very rough, ok.
(pause)
Allen: What were the lot numbers on the--8637
(mumbling)
Wadley: Is this fairly and accurately--you circled the area first of all that you say was searched, is that correct?
Allen: Roughly.
Wadley: Roughly?
Allen: Yes sir. The divers were underwater and I don't know where they're going--you know, I--you know, there's not like a bubble trail or whatever, I don't know exactly--what exactly they searched and how much they searched and they're underwater.
Wadley: But you were out there and watched as they searched and you pretty well know where they went.
Allen: I saw when they came up in different areas and--
Wadley: Ok.
Fogleman: I don't have any objections, Your Honor.
Wadley: Your Honor, we would seek to introduce this as Echols number--(mumbling)--Echols number 7.
The Court: Alright, it may be recieved without objection.
(pause)
The Court: Anything else?
Wadley: One other question. Could I distribute this to the jury?
The Court: Ok.
Wadley: Thank you.
The Court: You can give it to 'em.
Wadley: One other question, Officer. How many other people that you talked with in this investigation live at Lakeshore Trailer Park?
Allen: Uh--that I talked to personally myself, uh--
Wadley: Or that you have knowledge of within this investigation. How many other people that you all talked to regarding this, live there?
Allen: I have--I don't know--I don't have a number.
Wadley: How many other suspects lived out there?
Allen: Uh--I don't have a number--I don't really know.
Wadley: Would you agree with me that there were several?
Allen: You may have to probably ask Inspector Gitchell that--I don't--I interviewed some witnesses out there, but as far as suspects other than uh--I don't have a number.
Wadley: Ok. We'll ask him. Thank you.
(pause)
Wadley: Detective, Prosecutor Fogleman showed you this photograph and asked you, uh--the pier uh--behind the Baldwin trailer, is that right?
Allen: Yes sir.
Wadley: Is it your testimony that from the only place out there, this knife could have been thrown in the water is from that pier? Is that your testimony?
Allen: If it was thrown, uh--I would say it would have been thrown from an area on that side within a given--whatever that person had on his arm reach.
Wadley: So, you're saying--you're saying that you know it was thrown? Is that what you're telling this jury?
Allen: No, no. I said that if it was thrown, then that would be--
Wadley: Let me ask you something--
Allen: That would be--on that side of the lake, that would be an area which I would say in--with common sense--it would show--
Wadley: Detective Allen, you--are you saying the only place that that knife could have been placed in the water or the only way that knife could have been placed in the water would be from that pier? Is that what you're saying?
Allen: No sir.
Wadley: You're not saying that at all, are you?
Allen: No sir.
Wadley: That knife could have been put out there--
Fogleman: Your Honor, could he complete his answer?
Wadley: He just finished.
Fogleman: He was trying to talk and Mr. Wadley was talking--
The Court: Give him--
Wadley: I want him to talk, Judge.
The Court: Alright.
Allen: Go ahead and ask the question.
Wadley: I thought you had talked, are you not going to finish talking?
The Court: Go ahead and ask him the question.
Wadley: Detective, that--you're not--you would agree with me that that knife could have been put in that water from anywhere, correct?
Allen: I wouldn't say from anywhere. I would--it would make good sense--it would just make common sense that the knife uh--if it was dropped out of a boat, if it was thrown, uh--but as far as when you said while ago, "would that knife been thrown just from the Baldwin residence", I said it would make good sense that side of the bank.
Wadley: I'm asking you--
Allen: It would be too far from any other sides of the bank.
Wadley: I'm asking you, Detective, that knife could have been placed in there--that's not the only place that knife could have been placed in--isn't that right? Isn't that right?
Allen: That's correct.
Wadley: It could have been put in there from a number of places, couldn't it?
Allen: I wouldn't say a number of places.
Wadley: And as I've asked you before, you're not telling this jury that knife was tossed from that pier, are you? You're not saying that, are you?
Allen: I wasn't there--the--I don't know how the knife got to that location. I don't know if it was thrown--I don't know.
Wadley: You don't know how it got there, do you?
Allen: That's exactly right.
Wadley: That's what we do know, isn't it?
Allen: Yes sir.
Wadley: Ok. How long did this search take place?
Allen: How long?
Wadley: Yes sir.
Allen: We got there about 10--uh--let me refer to my notes, excuse me. We got out there around 10:30 that morning and uh--I guess we were out there roughly, 2--2 and half hours that day.
Wadley: You got out there--what time did you get out there?
Allen: It was around 10:30AM on 11/17 of 1993.
Wadley: And when did they start to go into the water? After you got there, when did they actually start going into the water?
Allen: I wrote down in my notes, started search at 10:30AM. Uh--from memory, I'm thinking it was about 10:30AM is by time they got suited up and started to look.
Wadley: And quit--quit when?
Allen: They located the--knife at 11:35AM
Wadley: That's all I have.
Allen: Or 11:30--11:35AM
Wadley: About an hour?
Allen: About an hour and a ha--you know.
Wadley: That's all I have.
Fogleman: Now, Detective Allen, about how long did they continue to search after they found the knife?
Allen: Uh--they pulled up numerous items from the lake--they, uh--old shoes, bowling ball, uh--all kinds of other things. They run into matress springs, alot of stuff in the water.
Fogleman: Did they find--number one, any other knives?
Allen: No sir.
Fogleman: So, exhibit 77 for identification purposes, was the only knife found there?
Allen: The only knife that they found.
Fogleman: Of any kind?
Allen: Of any kind.
Fogleman: And uh--at who's direction was this search made?
Allen: To me, it was Inspector Gitchell that instructed me to get with Tommy Wicker of the state police.
(pause)
Fogleman: I don't have any further questions, Your Honor.
