IT'S 1993 IT'S 9:56 A. M. PRESENT IS JOHN FOGLEMAN DEPUTY PROSECUTING ATTORNEY FOR CRITTENDEN COUNTY, BRENT DAVIS THE PROSECUTING ATTORNEY FOR THE 2ND JUDICIAL DISTRICT, AND TERRY GRINNELL, UH AND HIS UH COURT APPOINTED LAWYER DAVIS LOFTIN. UM, MR. GRINNELL IF YOU WOULD RAISE YOUR RIGHT HAND DO YOU SOLEMNLY SWEAR TO OR AFFIRM THAT TESTIMONY YOUR ABOUT TO GIVE PURSUANT TO THIS PROSECUTOR'S ATTORNEY SUBPOENA WILL THE TRUTH THE WHOLE TRUTH AND NOTHING BUT TRUTH?
GRINNELL: YEAH
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, UM, MR. GRINNELL FOR THE RECORD IF YOU WOULD STATE YOUR NAME AND WHERE YOU LIVE?
GRINNELL: TERRY GRINNELL, 913 BOX 913 UM, MARION, ARKANSAS AND IT'S IN (INAUDIBLE) LAKESHORE TRAILER PARK
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, IT'S AT LAKESHORE TRAILER PARK?
GRINNELL: RT 2, LAKESHORE
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, WHAT STREET DO YOU LIVE ON IN LAKESHORE?
GRINNELL: UH, LET'S SEE 245 WEST LAKE DRIVE SOUTH
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, IS THAT ON LAKE OR OFF THE LAKE?
GRINNELL: ON THE LAKE
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, AND WHO LIVES THERE AT THE TRAILER WITH YOU?
GRINNELL: MY WIFE, AND MY SONS
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, WHO ARE THEY?
GRINNELL: JASON MATTHEW, AND TERRY
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, TERRY GRINNELL AND OR JASON AND MATTHEW YOU REAL CHILDREN OR YOUR STEP-CHILDREN?
GRINNELL: UM, MY STEP-SONS
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT
GRINNELL: THEY BEEN, I'VE BEEN THERE LIKE TEN YEARS, THEIR MY SONS
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, AND HOW OLD IS MATTHEW?
GRINNELL: MATTHEW'S IS 15
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, AND
GRINNELL: 14
FOGLEMAN: 14, ALRIGHT, WHAT GRADE IN SCHOOL IS HE?
GRINNELL: I HAVE NO IDEA
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, AND HOW OLD IS JASON NOW?
GRINNELL: 16
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, NOW THE LAST TIME THAT UM, YOU WERE HERE WHO WERE REPRESENTED BY PAUL FORD IS THAT CORRECT?
GRINNELL: SUPPOSEDLY
FOGLEMAN: SUPPOSEDLY, OKAY, WELL HE SAID THAT HE WAS REPRESENTING YOU ALL AT THAT TIME?
GRINNELL: WE HE, WE DIDN'T TALK TO NOBODY, SO I DON'T GUESS I WAS REPRESENTED BY ANYBODY, I DIDN'T TALK TO ANYBODY, HIM AND ROBIN, UM, ROBIN CAME UP HERE BUT HE DIDN'T SHOW UP
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, EXCUSE ME ROBIN WADLEY WAS HERE UH, WAS ROBIN WADLEY REPRESENTING YOU AT THAT TIME?
GRINNELL: I GUESS
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, ALRIGHT, AND UM, DO YOU HAVE OTHER RELATIVES YOU OR YOUR WIFE, HAVE OTHER RELATIVES IN CRITTENDEN COUNTY?
GRINNELL: NO
FOGLEMAN: NO OTHER RELATIONSHIPS?
GRINNELL: UH, OH YES SHE'S GOT A UNCLE
FOGLEMAN: WHAT'S HIS NAME?
GRINNELL: UH, HUBERT BARTOUSH
FOGLEMAN: HUBERT BARTOUSH OKAY, I GUESS, DOES MR. BARTOUSH HAVE ANY CHILDREN?
GRINNELL: NO
FOGLEMAN: OKAY
GRINNELL: NO HE IS A ELDERLY MAN
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, UM, WILL, IT COULD BE ADULT CHILDREN DO YOU KNOW OF ANY ADULT CHILDREN?
GRINNELL: NO
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, DOES UM, DOES YOUR WIFE, DOES HER EX-HUSBAND LIVE IN THIS AREA?
GRINNELL: NO
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, DO YOU ALL HAVE ANY RELATIVES IN MISSISSIPPI COUNTY?
GRINNELL: UM, SHE'S GOT UM, I DON'T KNOW WHAT COUNTY IT'S IN SHE'S GOT A SISTER IN MISSISSIPPI, BUT I DON'T KNOW WHAT COUNTY IT'S IN.
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, I'M TALKING ABOUT UP THERE AROUND BLYTHEVILLE, OSCEOLA?
GRINNELL: NO NO NO NO
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, DO YOU HAVE ANY RELATIVES LIKE UP AROUND HARRISBURG?
GRINNELL: NO
FOGLEMAN: MARKED TREE?
GRINNELL: NO
FOGLEMAN: JONESBORO?
GRINNELL: NO
FOGLEMAN: PARAGOULD?
GRINNELL: NO
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, DO YOU WORK?
GRINNELL: NO, I'M... I'M UNEMPLOYED RIGHT NOW
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, BACK IN MAY WERE YOU WORKING?
GRINNELL: NO
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, WHEN WAS THE LAST TIME YOU WORKED?
GRINNELL: UM, OH I DO A LOT, A LOT OF SMALL JOBS FOR DIFFERENT PEOPLE, BUT UM, I HAVEN'T
FOGLEMAN: BUT I MEAN ON A PAYCHECK TYPE THING?
GRINNELL: UM, A COUPLE OF YEARS
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, UH, DOES YOUR WIFE IS HER NAME ANGELA?
GRINNELL: ANGELA GAYLE
FOGLEMAN: DOES SHE WORK? DOES SHE WORK?
GRINNELL: YEAH
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, WHERE DOES SHE WORK?
GRINNELL: UH, CUSTOM TRANSPORTATION
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, HOW LONG HAS SHE WORKED THERE?
GRINNELL: COUPLE OF YEARS
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, WHAT HOURS DOES SHE WORK?
GRINNELL: FROM 2:30 TO 11 O'CLOCK, OH WELL 3 TO 11
FOGLEMAN: 3 O'CLOCK IN THE AFTERNOON
GRINNELL: AFTERNOON TILL 11 O'CLOCK AT NIGHT
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, AND HOW MANY DAYS A WEEK DOES SHE DO THAT?
GRINNELL: 5
FOGLEMAN: OKAY
GRINNELL: SHE'S NOT WORKING RIGHT NOW
FOGLEMAN: OKAY
GRINNELL: SHE'S GOES BACK, SHE'S GOING BACK TO WORK MONDAY
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, HOW LONG HAS SHE BEEN OFF WORK?
GRINNELL: UH, SHE'S BEEN OFF A COUPLE WEEKS, SINCE SHE HAD THAT BREAK DOWN
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, WHAT KIND OF BREAK DOWN WAS THAT? I MEAN WHAT HAPPENED? WAS IT RELATED TO THIS SOME HOW OR?
GRINNELL: UH, GOD ONLY KNOWS
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, WELL I HAD HEARD THAT SEE HAD A BREAK DOWN SOME YEARS AGO IS THAT RIGHT?
GRINNELL: YEA
FOGLEMAN: UH-HUH
GRINNELL: I'M SURE THIS DIDN'T HELP IT ANY
FOGLEMAN: DO YOU KNOW HOW JASON WOULD GET TO SCHOOL? WHEN HE WAS GOING TO SCHOOL?
GRINNELL: HE RODE THE BUS EVERY DAY
FOGLEMAN: HE RODE THE BUS EVERYDAY, DID HE RIDE THE BUS HOME?
GRINNELL: YES
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, UM, I WANT TO DIRECTION YOUR ATTENTION TO WEDNESDAY, MAY THE 5TH, UM, DO YOU KNOW WHERE YOU WERE THAT DAY?
GRINNELL: I WAS AT MY MOTHER'S HOUSE
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, WHERE IS YOUR MOTHER'S HOUSE?
GRINNELL: UN UH, MEMPHIS, TENNESSEE
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, UH, HAD LONG HAD YOU BEEN AT YOUR MOTHER'S HOUSE?
GRINNELL: UM, I'M NOT SURE, I HAD BEEN OVER A COUPLE DAYS
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, UM, HAD YOUR MOTHER BEEN SICK OR ?
GRINNELL: UH, SHE'D, WELL SHE HAS HAD SOME PROBLEMS SHE HAD TO HAVE A EAR OPERATION AND THIS THAT AND THE OTHER AND I WENT OVER THERE AND STAYED WITH HER, I WAS OVER THERE FOR A FEW DAYS
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, WHEN DID YOU COME BACK? YOU DON'T KNOW HOW LONG YOU WERE OVER THERE OR WHEN YOU CAME BACK? YOU REMEMBER WHAT DAY OF THE WEEK YOU RETURNED?
GRINNELL: NO
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, UH, WERE YOU AND YOUR WIFE SEPARATED DURING THIS TIME?
GRINNELL: MORE OR LESS, I GUESS, WE, I WAS OVER THERE WE WERE HAVING SOME PROBLEMS
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, BUT YOU DON'T REMEMBER WHEN YOU CAME BACK?
GRINNELL: NO
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, UM, DURING THE TIME THAT YOU WERE LIVING WITH UM, OR STAYING WITH YOUR MOTHER DID YOU HAVE ANY CONTACT WITH MATTHEW OR JASON?
GRINNELL: NO, NOT OTHER THEN THEM ANSWER THE PHONE, AND TALKING TO GAYLE, NO
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, DID YOU TALK TO EITHER ONE OF THEM ON THE PHONE UM, ANYTHING OTHER THAN ANSWER THE PHONE?
GRINNELL: NO
FOGLEMAN: OKAY
GRINNELL: I DON'T THINK SO
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, UH, DO YOU KNOW WHETHER ARE NOT YOU TALKED TO EITHER ONE OF THEM?
GRINNELL: NO, NO, TELL THEM I LOVED THEM AND
FOGLEMAN: OKAY
GRINNELL: AND YOU KNOW WHAT EVER
FOGLEMAN: DO YOU KNOW WHETHER OR NOT YOU TALKED TO EITHER ONE OF THEM ON THE PHONE ON MAY THE 5TH?
GRINNELL: I DON'T HAVE ANY IDEA, UM, I DON'T GUESS I REALLY DON'T KNOW
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, YOU DON'T REMEMBER?
GRINNELL: DON'T REMEMBER AT ALL
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, UM, DO YOU KNOW WHETHER YOU TALKED TO THEM ON THE PHONE DURING THAT WEEK OF MAY THE 5TH?
GRINNELL: I DON'T KNOW
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, DO YOU HAVE ANY IDEA AT ALL THEN IT WAS YOU MOVED BACK?
GRINNELL: NO
FOGLEMAN: WAS IT
GRINNELL: DON'T EVEN REMEMBER
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, IT WAS BEFORE, UM IT WAS BEFORE JASON WAS ARRESTED, WOULDN'T THAT BE FAIR TO SAY?
GRINNELL: YEA, CAUSE I WAS THERE THE NIGHT THE WAS ARRESTED
FOGLEMAN: RIGHT, HOW LONG HAD YOU BEEN BACK WHEN HE WAS ARRESTED?
GRINNELL: UM, A FEW DAYS, I DON'T KNOW
FOGLEMAN: OKAY
GRINNELL: I'M... I'M NOT SURE
FOGLEMAN: UM, DO YOU KNOW WHY YOUR WIFE WHEN SHE CAME IN THAT NIGHT WHEN THE POLICE WERE THERE, WHY SEE WOULD OF, ACCUSED YOU OF TURNING JASON IN?
GRINNELL: GOSH SHE WAS NEARLY FLIPPED THE WHOLE THING, (INAUDIBLE) SHE WAS JUST FLIPPED OUT
FOGLEMAN: OKAY
GRINNELL: THE WHOLE THING FLIPPED HER OUT
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, DID UM, ANYBODY JASON OR ANYBODY EVER TELL YOU ABOUT WHERE THEY WERE THAT DAY?
GRINNELL: UH-HUH
FOGLEMAN: WHERE DID JASON TELL YOU HE WAS THAT DAY?
GRINNELL: HE DIDN'T TELL ME ME, BUT I KNOW WHERE HE WAS
FOGLEMAN: WELL, WHO TOLD YOU WEE HE WAS?
GRINNELL: HIS UNCLE
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, WHAT DID HIS UNCLE TELL YOU?
GRINNELL: HE CAME OVER AND CUT HIS GRASS AND HE PAID HIM FOR IT.
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, DID... DID HIS UNCLE SAY WHEN HE GOT THERE? WE TALKING ABOUT MR. BARTOUSH?
GRINNELL: UH-HUH
FOGLEMAN: DID MR. BARTOUSH SAY WHAT TIME JASON GOT OVER THERE?
GRINNELL: YEA
FOGLEMAN: WHAT TIME DID HE SAY?
GRINNELL: I DON... WELL IT WAS, I THINK HE SAID HE WAS THERE FROM FOUR TILL ABOUT 6:30 OR SOMETHING LIKE THAT, YEA
FOGLEMAN: OKAY
GRINNELL: 6:30 OR 7 O'CLOCK, CAUSE HE UH, HE WELL I KNOW IT WAS AFTER, I KNOW IT WAS THAT LATE BECAUSE UH, HE WENT OVER AFTER SCHOOL
FOGLEMAN: OKAY
GRINNELL: HE TOLD ME HE CAME OVER AFTER SCHOOL
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, DID MR. BARTOUSH SAY WHETHER ANYBODY WAS WITH HIM OR NOT?
GRINNELL: UM, NOW THAT I'M NOT SURE ABOUT, I THINK HE SAID THERE WAS A LITTLE BOY UM, NO HE... HE SAID HE DIDN'T REMEMBER, HE SAID HE THOUGHT THERE WAS A LITTLE BOY OUTSIDE WITH HIM, BUT HE DIDN'T, THE BOY DIDN'T COME IN THE HOUSE WITH HIM
FOGLEMAN: UH-HUH, OKAY, DID YOU KNOW WHERE HE WENT, HAVE YOU HEARD WHERE HE WENT AFTER HE LEFT MOWER THE YARD? WHERE HAVE YOU HEARD THAT HE WENT?
GRINNELL: WELL, HE WENT DOWN TO THE UH WAL-MART
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, WHO TOLD YOU THAT HE WENT DOWN TO WAL-MART?
GRINNELL: HE DID
FOGLEMAN: JASON DID? ALRIGHT, WHAT DID JASON
GRINNELL: I THINK HE DID, YEA
FOGLEMAN: WHAT DID JASON TELL YOU ABOUT GOING TO MOWER THE GRASS?
GRINNELL: UH, HE AIN'T, HE AIN'T TOLD ME NOTHING ABOUT IT BECAUSE I AIN'T ABLE TO TALK TO HIM ABOUT IT
FOGLEMAN: WELL YOU'VE BEEN TO VISIT HIM NUMBERLESS TIMES
GRINNELL: YEA, BUT I WAS TOLD NOT TO TALK TO HIM ABOUT IT, AND I AIN'T EVEN BROUGHT IT UP
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, WELL YOU SAID THAT JASON TOLD YOU THAT HE HAD GONE TO WAL-MART
GRINNELL: YEA, (INAUDIBLE) HE TOLD ME THAT UH, THEY UM, WENT DOWN TO WAL-MART AND PLAYED SOME VIDEO GAMES, YEA
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, WHEN DID JASON TELL YOU THAT?
GRINNELL: I DON'T KNOW
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, WHAT ELSE DID JASON TELL YOU WHEN HE TOLD YOU THAT?
GRINNELL: I DON'T KNOW
FOGLEMAN: DID HE TELL YOU WHO HE WENT TO WAL-MART WITH AND PLAYED THE VIDEO GAMES?
GRINNELL: NO, BUT I KNOW WHO HE WENT WITH
FOGLEMAN: WELL WHO DID HE GO WITH?
GRINNELL: UM, I DON'T KNOW THE LITTLE BOY'S NAME
FOGLEMAN: WOULD IF I SUGGESTION A NAME WOULD IT HELP YOU, TO REMEMBER HIS NAME, HAVE YOU HEARD HIS NAME BEFORE?
GRINNELL: YEA, I DIDN'T KNOW THE LITTLE BOY
FOGLEMAN: KEN, DOES THAT RING ANY BELLS
GRINNELL: YEA, BUT I DIDN'T KNOW THE LITTLE BOY PERIOD.
FOGLEMAN: OKAY
GRINNELL: YEA, I THINK I SO, I DON'T KNOW
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, AND UM, WHAT DID JASON SAY AFTER HE PLAYED VIDEO GAMES AT WAL-MART WHERE HE WENT?
GRINNELL: WENT HOME
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, UH DID HE SAY WHAT TIME HE GOT HOME?
GRINNELL: UH, I'M NOT SURE NOW IF JASON TOLD ME OR IF IT WAS UH DINK TOLD ME
FOGLEMAN: WHO'S DINK?
GRINNELL: AFTER HE GOT HOME, HE GOT HOME ABOUT 7:30
FOGLEMAN: WHO'S DINK?
GRINNELL: HE WAS A GUY THAT WAS STAYING OVER AT THE HOUSE WHEN I WAS GONE, HE WAS STAYING OVER THERE, HE WAS YOU KNOW WATCHING THE KIDS
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, WHAT IS HIS NAME?
GRINNELL: DINK, DENNIS DENT
FOGLEMAN: AND YOU ALL CALL HIM DINK, WHERE DOES HE WORK?
GRINNELL: HE DON'T, MATTER OF FACT HE'S IN JAIL OVER IN MEMPHIS
FOGLEMAN: HE'S IN JAIL OVER IN MEMPHIS?
GRINNELL: UH-HUH
FOGLEMAN: RIGHT NOW?
GRINNELL: UM-UM
FOGLEMAN: WHAT'S HE OVER IN JAIL FOR?
GRINNELL: I HAVE NO IDEA
FOGLEMAN: BUT YOU THINK THAT DINK TOLDYOU THAT UH, THAT HE GOT HOME AROUND 7:30?
GRINNELL: DINK OR GAYLE ONE, BECAUSE TH... YOU KNOW I WAS ASKING HER ABOUT IT AND SHE HAD CALLED HOME ABOUT 8:00 AND THE BOYS WASN'T HOME, OR YOU KNOW
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT
GRINNELL: BECAUSE SHE CALLS AND CHECKS ON THE KIDS AND WHAT HAVE YOU
FOGLEMAN: SO IT'S YOUR TESTIMONY THAT JASON HADN'T TOLD YOU WHAT TIME HE GOT HOME?
GRINNELL: I DON'T THINK, I CAN'T REMEMBER, I AIN'T GOING TO SWEAR TO GOD ON NOTHING, YOU KNOW I MEAN LIKE THAT, BECAUSE I REALLY DON'T REMEMBER
FOGLEMAN: BUT YOU THINK DINK TOLD YOU THAT HE GOT HOME AROUND 7:30?
GRINNELL: YEA
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, NOW
GRINNELL: I THINK HE DID, IT WAS
FOGLEMAN: YOU THINK HE DID
GRINNELL: IT WAS HIM OR GAYLE ONE DID
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT
GRINNELL: BECAUSE SHE CALLED HOME TO MAKE SURE THE BOYS WERE HOME
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, WHAT DID SHE TELL YOU ABOUT CALLING HOME?
GRINNELL: SHE JUST CALLED HOME, SHE SAID YOU KNOW, MAKE SURE THE BOYS ARE IN THE HOUSE YOU KNOW
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, WELL I MEAN DID SHE SAY WHO SHE TALKED TO?
GRINNELL: I GUESS TO TALKED TO DINK OR ONE OF THE KIDS, I DON'T KNOW
FOGLEMAN: YOU DON'T KNOW WHO SHE TALKED TO? OKAY, DID AFTER THE UM, HAS YOUR WIFE TOLD YOU ANYTHING ELSE ABOUT WHAT JASON'S TOLD HER?
GRINNELL: HE'S INNOCENT AND HE'S NOT WORRIED ABOUT IT, HELL HE DIDN'T DO IT, AND HE SAID I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT IT
FOGLEMAN: UH-HUH, HE THAT WHAT HE SAID?
GRINNELL: YES
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, WHEN DID HE TELL YOU THAT?
GRINNELL: WELL HE TOLD A LAWYER THAT, HE'S TOLD ME, YOU KNOW, I ASKED HIM WHY HE'S SO CALM NOW, HE SAYS HEY I'M NOT WORRIED ABOUT IT BECAUSE I KNOW THAT I'M INNOCENT, AND I DIDN'T DO IT
FOGLEMAN: UH-HUH
GRINNELL: AND I BELIEVE HIM
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, HE TOLD YOU THAT?
GRINNELL: I KNOW, I KNOW JASON IS KIND HEARTED, (INAUDIBLE) HEY, I KNOW HOW THE BOY IS AND I HAVE NO, NOTHING TO THINK, THAT WOULD MAKE ME TO THINK THAT BOY COULD EVER DO ANYTHING LIKE THAT
FOGLEMAN: HOW ABOUT DAMIEN?
GRINNELL: NO, I DON'T THINK DAMIEN COULD DO IT
FOGLEMAN: YOU DON'T THINK DAMIEN COULD DO ANYTHING LIKE THAT?
GRINNELL: NO I DON'T
FOGLEMAN: DO YOU KNOW ABOUT DAMIEN'S
GRINNELL: HE CAME ON, HE'S CAME OVER TO HOUSE AND PLAYED VIDEO GAMES WITH MY LITTLE SON, AND JASON, AND THERE'S NO WAY IN THE WORLD I THINK THAT BOY HAD ANYTHING TO DO THAT, NO
FOGLEMAN: WELL, DID YOU KNOW THAT DAMIEN HAD I TATTOO OF A PENTAGRAM ON HIS CHEST?
GRINNELL: NO, BUT UH, I DON'T KNOW THEIR KIDS, I MEAN
FOGLEMAN: OKAY
GRINNELL: I DON'T BELIEVE, I MEAN THE BOY NEVER GIVE ME ANY REASON TO THINK HE WOULD DO ANYTHING LIKE THIS
FOGLEMAN: DO YOU KNOW DAMIEN SAYS HE'S A WITCH?
GRINNELL: NO HE'S NEVER TOLD ME ANYTHING LIKE THAT, NO
FOGLEMAN: YOU HAVEN'T HEARD, JASON DIDN'T TELL YOU ANYTHING ABOUT THAT?
GRINNELL: NO, DONE WHAT SO EVER
FOGLEMAN: WHEN DID JASON AND DAMIEN BECOME REAL GOOD FRIENDS?
GRINNELL: UH, I DON'T REMEMBER, IT WAS A WHILE BACK BUT I DON'T REMEMBER WHAT EVER, I HAVE NO, NO REASON TO EVER BELIEVE THAT HE, HE'D ANYTHING LIKE THAT
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, DID YOU NOTICE ANY CHANGE IN JASON'S BEHAVIOR OR DRESS AFTER HE STARTED, HANGING AROUND DAMIEN?
GRINNELL: NO, HE ALWAYS WEAR, HE ALWAYS INTO ROCK SHIRTS AND THIS THAT AND THE OTHER AND DOING HIS LITTLE, YOU KNOW DOING HIS LITTLE DRAWINGS AND STUFF, NAW
FOGLEMAN: YOU DIDN'T NOTICE THAT HE STARTED WEARING ALL BLACK?
GRINNELL: HE'S ALWAYS, KIDS HAVE ALWAYS WORE BLACK T-SHIRTS, NAW,
FOGLEMAN: BUT NOTHING BUT BLACK?
GRINNELL: NO I DIDN'T SAY THEY DIDN'T WEAR NOTHING BUT BLACK, DON'T PUT WORDS IN MY MOUTH
FOGLEMAN: WHAT ELSE DID JASON WEAR BESIDE BLACK?
GRINNELL: HE WORE BLUE JEANS, HE HAD OTHER SHIRTS THAT WERE DIFFERENT COLORS
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT
GRINNELL: BUT THEY WORE A LOT, YOU KNOW BLACK ROCK SHIRTS
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT
GRINNELL: I MEAN HIM AND HIS BROTHER, AND ALL THE KIDS IN THE NEIGHBORHOOD DID, (INAUDIBLE) YOUR MAKING SOMETHING OUT OF NOTHING
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, AND UH, WERE YOU EVER AWARE OF JASON GOING WITH DAMIEN TO ANY OF THESE MEETINGS THAT DAMIEN WOULD GO TO?
GRINNELL: NO, HE NEVER WENT TO NO MEETINGS WITH HIM, OR (INAUDIBLE)
FOGLEMAN: HOW DO YOU KNOW THAT?
GRINNELL: WELL FIRST OF ALL HE HAD TO BE IN THE HOUSE BY 8 O'CLOCK, I MEAN YOU KNOW
FOGLEMAN: WHO WAS THERE TO MAKE SURE HE WAS IN THE HOUSE?
GRINNELL: I WAS THERE
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, BUT YOU WEREN'T THERE
GRINNELL: I WASN'T THERE THAT PARTICULAR NIGHT, BUT I UM, WAS THERE EVER NIGHT, YOU KNOW UP TILL THEN, THAT BOY DIDN'T GO OUT AND STAY, HE DIDN'T RUN THE STREETS
FOGLEMAN: WHEN DID
GRINNELL: THEY GOT, THEY GOT A CURFEW TO START WITH
FOGLEMAN: UH-HUH
GRINNELL: NO, THAT BOY AIN'T BOY RUNNING THE STREETS
FOGLEMAN: WHEN DID YOU AND YOUR WIFE SEPARATE?
GRINNELL: I DON'T KNOW
FOGLEMAN: WAS IT IN APRIL?
GRINNELL: ABOUT THE END OF THE MONTH, I HAD BEEN OVER AT MY MOTHER'S HOUSE A COUPLE OF DAYS, SO I DON'T, SO I DON'T EVEN REMEMBER
FOGLEMAN: OKAY
GRINNELL: MY MOTHER JUST GOT OUT OF THE HOSPITAL HAVING EAR OPERATION, THIS THAT AND THE OTHER, AND I JUST WENT OVER THERE AND STAYED WITH HER AND HELPED HER OUT DO SOME THINGS ON HER YARD, SHE'S ALMOST 60 YEARS OLD, I WENT OVER THERE, YOU KNOW AND HELPED HER OUT WITH HER YARD AND THIS THAT AND THE OTHER I WAS GONE A FEW DAYS, I DON'T REMEMBER HOW LONG IT WAS.
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, CAN YOU THINK OF ANYMORE QUESTIONS FOR HIM?
DAVIS: NO
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, IT'S NOT 10:14 A. M., SEPTEMBER THE 23RD 1993 AND THAT CONCLUDES THIS INTERVIEW OF TERRY GRINNELL.
DAVIS: THERE IS ONE QUESTION I THOUGHT OF
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT WE'VE GOT ONE MORE QUESTION.
DAVIS: WHO HE HAS TALKED TO ABOUT THE SPECIFICS OF THIS PARTICULAR CASE, WHAT HAPPENED, WHAT OCCURRED, WHO ALL HE HAS TALKED WITH?
FOGLEMAN: WHO ALL HAVE, MR. GRINNELL
GRINNELL: UH-HUH
FOGLEMAN: WHO ALL HAVE YOU TALKED TO DISCUSSING THE SPECIFICS OF THIS CASE WITH?
GRINNELL: FIRST OF ALL, I WASN'T THERE SO HELL I AIN'T REALLY TALKED TO ANYBODY ABOUT IT
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, WILL DIDN'T YOU ALL GO ON THE TV NEWS UM, PROCLAIMING JASON'S INNOCENT'S?
GRINNELL: YEAH, I DID
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, WHO ELSE HAVE YOU TALKED TO ABOUT THIS MURDER
GRINNELL: ALL I SAID WAS, I THINK THIS WHOLE THINGS IS A FRAME UP
FOGLEMAN: WELL LET ME ASK YOU THIS DO YOU SOME BASIC
GRINNELL: WELL I STILL BELIEVE IT
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, DO YOU HAVE SOME REASON TO BELIEVE THAT THE POLICE WOULD FRAME JASON?
GRINNELL: YEA, BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T HAVE NOBODY, THEY COULDN'T FIND NOBODY ELSE TO PIN IT ON
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, WELL WHY WOULD THE POLICE PICK JASON?
GRINNELL: CAUSE YOUNGER, CAUSE THEY, THEY WANTED TO GET DAMIEN AND JUST PUT SOMETHING ON HIM, BECAUSE THEY HE, THEY I THINK WERE AFTER DAMIEN BECAUSE HE, HIM AND HIS LITTLE GIRLFRIEND, SOME LITTLE GIRL THAT, THAT THEY HE WAS GOING WITH ONE TIME, THEY I BELIEVE THEY WERE AFTER HIM AND UH, AND THEY WERE JUST TO LIKELY SUSPECTS, YOU KNOW, I MEAN THEY JUST PICK ON THEM, I MEAN YOU KNOW JUST DO IT
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, WELL WHY DO YOU THINK THE POLICE WOULD BE AFTER DAMIEN?
GRINNELL: UH, BECAUSE HE CAME BACK TO TOWN, AFTER HE GOT IN TROUBLE WITH THAT LITTLE GIRL, I THINK THEY WERE JUST... JUST OUT TO GET HIM, THEY HAD TO PUT IT ON SOMEBODY
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, SO YOU THINK
GRINNELL: AND THEY DIDN'T HAVE NOBODY ELSE TO PUT IT ON SO THEY JUST (INAUDIBLE) GRABBED A COUPLE OF KIDS
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, SO YOU THINK THE POLICE JUST... JUST DECIDED TO FRAME UP A COUPLE OF KIDS?
GRINNELL: YES
FOGLEMAN: OKAY, WELL WHO HAVE YOU TALKED TO ABOUT YOUR BELIEFS ABOUT THIS, THAT YOU THINK IT'S JUST A FRAME UP?
GRINNELL: I AIN'T TALKED TO ANYBODY ABOUT IT, BUT THAT'S WHAT I BELIEVE IN MY HEART
FOGLEMAN: YOU HAVEN'T TOLD ANYBODY THAT?
GRINNELL: NOT THAT I KNOW OF
FOGLEMAN: YOU HAVEN'T TOLD THE LAWYERS THAT?
GRINNELL: MY WIFE
FOGLEMAN: YOU'VE TOLD YOUR WIFE, HAVE YOU TOLD THE LAWYERS THAT?
GRINNELL: I DON'T KNOW
FOGLEMAN: HAVE YOU TOLD ANYBODY THAT? BESIDES YOUR WIFE?
GRINNELL: I DON'T KNOW
FOGLEMAN: YOU DON'T KNOW WHO YOU'VE TOLD THAT?
GRINNELL: NO, WHAT DIFFERENCE DOES IT MAKE ANYWAY?
FOGLEMAN: THE QUESTION IS DO YOU KNOW WHO YOU HAVE TOLD THAT DO?
GRINNELL: NO! I DONE SAID NO ABOUT 4 OR 5 TIMES, I DON'T KNOW
FOGLEMAN: ALRIGHT, THAT CONCLUDES THIS INTERVIEW OF TERRY GRINNELL, 10:17 A. M., SEPTEMBER 23RD 1993.
