Victoria Hutcheson 6.24.2004

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Nancy Pemberton: Office of Mima Cazort and it is, uh, June 24th, the year 2004 and it's about 4:30 in the afternoon. And I'm Nancy Pemberton and also in the room is Theresa Gibbons, Jeff Rosenzweig, Sharon [Mash], Mima Cazort and Victoria Hutcheson.

Victoria Hutcheson: Victoria Hutcheson.

Nancy Pemberton: And you are Victoria Hutcheson, right?

Victoria Hutcheson: Right.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. And, uh, Mima Cazort is going to be kind enough to swear you in.

Mima: Victoria, would you raise your right hand please? Do you swear on our [Lord our God] to tell the truth and nothing but the truth as you remember it?

Victoria Hutcheson: I do.

Nancy Pemberton: Thank you. Thank you. Uh, I wanted to better explain to you, uh, I am working with Jeff Rosenzweig and Michael Burt and we represent Jessie Misskelley and Theresa Gibbons is working on the defense team of Damien Echols. And so you are aware of who we are and who we represent?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes ma'am.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay, you understand that. I wanted to talk to you about some of the events, uh, that happened in May and June of 1993.

Victoria Hutcheson: Okay.

Nancy Pemberton: Can you tell me where you were living in, uh, May of 1993?

Victoria Hutcheson: When the boys were killed?

Nancy Pemberton: Yes.

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, I lived in the trailer park in Marion and, uh, I can't remember exactly the address.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. And this is the trailer park. Who else lived there of importance to this case?

Victoria Hutcheson: Jessie Misskelley.

Nancy Pemberton: And you were friends with Jessie at the time?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes ma'am.

Nancy Pemberton: Can you tell me about, uh, the day of May 6, 1993 and just to orient you, this would be a day when you went to the Marion Police Department and met with Don Bray.

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, yes, I [unintelligible], uh, do you want to start at the very beginning?

Nancy Pemberton: Uh-huh, uh-huh.

Victoria Hutcheson: I dropped my son off at school and, uh, I went back to my trailer. Rhonda [Deadman] called me from the hospital. She was having her surgery for her knee and, uh, she called me and asked me who were Aaron's friends that I lived by in there in, uh, on Barton Street. And, uh, I said, "Michael and Chris." And said, "Well what are their last names?" I said, "Michael Moore and Christopher Byers," and she said, "Did you know there is three kids missing?" And I thought, immediately I thought that Aaron you know might be with them.

Nancy Pemberton: Right.

Victoria Hutcheson: I didn't know they'd been missing all night. So I got into my truck and went to leave for school and parked out in front of the school. I went into the school and, uh, the principal told me that, uh, "No, Aaron was in class." And I told her that I'm going to take him out of class and will take him to Dana and Todd's and, uh--

Nancy Pemberton: Dana and Todd are the Moores?

Victoria Hutcheson: The Moores, yes.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, so I picked Aaron up out of class. West Memphis then informed me later that there was, uh, cops questioning, uh, there was a lot of cops, that "we were questioning him." But I was right there and there was no cops.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: And, uh, then I picked Aaron up and we went to the Moores. And, uh, Todd began to question Aaron about, "Did the boys say anything to you about where they had gone and what they were going to do after school?" And I didn't realize it was Stevie Branch that was with them. Uh, I also had to go to Marion because of credit card theft that happened at the store I worked at. And we had had a polygraph and I had to go down there and I talked to Don Bray. Uh, I went into the Marion Police Department with my son, Aaron, and, uh --

Nancy Pemberton: And tell me who Don Bray is.

Victoria Hutcheson: The chief of police of Marion.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: And, uh, we sat in there, uh, and Aaron would not talk to Don. I told him, "You'll have to forgive him because his best friends are missing, uh, and he's upset." And Don began to talk to Aaron and then asked me would I leave the room so they could talk to Aaron further in-depth. And so I left the room and he questioned Aaron.

Nancy Pemberton: Before you -- well let me back up. When you said you went in there and sat down, where were you in the Marion Police Department waiting?

Victoria Hutcheson: In Don Bray's office.

Nancy Pemberton: And, uh, Aaron was in the room with you?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes.

Nancy Pemberton: When you explained to Don Bray that Aaron was not being responsive because his friends were missing and Don began to question him, did you hear any of Aaron's answers at that time? Or do you remember any of Aaron's answers?

Victoria Hutcheson: He, uh, he really didn't say anything but, "Yeah, uh, my friends -- those are my friends." And then Don asked me would I mind stepping out of the room.

Nancy Pemberton: So it was very quick, there was just one or two questions before you left the room.

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes, because Aaron -- he thought Aaron was not talking because I was in the room.

Nancy Pemberton: Then, uh, excuse me. After you returned to the -- Don Bray's office, did he do anything in your presence, uh, about the information that Aaron had given you?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, no he just told me that Aaron did have, uh, some things he thought were important. That, uh, he asked me, asked Aaron to then go get a Coke and I sat him down outside the room and he told me they had found two of the boys and then the third one and I became very upset. Uh, I got Aaron and we went then in my truck and, uh, I went where had found the boys there at the end of the woods and, uh, was there when they, uh, were telling the parents. I then went to, uh, Dana and Todd's house.

Nancy Pemberton: Back to Dana and Todd's house; so the second time that day?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: While you were in Don Bray's office, did he make any phone calls to anybody?

Victoria Hutcheson: He did call the West Memphis Police Department and let them know -- he called them the first time just to let them know that Aaron said that, uh, he was -- they were at a club house and that's when they told him the two bodies had been found, which would be at the club house. And, uh, the second time was to tell West Memphis he believed that this little boy knew too much information; that, that, uh, maybe they should talk to him.

Nancy Pemberton: This is the same -- when you said the second phone call, it is both on the same day?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes.

Nancy Pemberton: Was one phone call made -- how far apart were these phone calls made?

Victoria Hutcheson: The, uh -- when I came back in the, the first time; when I came back in is when, uh, he called and said that, uh, Aaron -- it was maybe at the same time, I can't really remember.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: But I do know that he told the West Memphis -- anyway he had a -- there was maybe a period of time there where he might have been on hold; I don't know.

Nancy Pemberton: I gotcha.

Victoria Hutcheson: [Coughs] But, uh, he did tell West Memphis that they needed to talk to Aaron and then, and then had -- out of Aaron's presence had me tell -- told me that they had found two of them.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. And then you went to the -- sort of to the scene and, uh, then you went to Dana and Todd's?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes.

Nancy Pemberton: All right. Did you meet any police that day following May 6th?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, I talked to Gary Gitchell and Bryn Ridge and I don't know, Sudbury. I don't know his name.

Nancy Pemberton: And where was that?

Victoria Hutcheson: At the Marion Police Department.

Nancy Pemberton: How did you arrange to be there?

Victoria Hutcheson: Don Bray called me and told me to meet there because of the fact that, that, uh, West Memphis wanted to talk to Aaron and he was getting real disgusted with them not talking with Aaron because he felt that Aaron was pertinent to that case. [Coughs]

Nancy Pemberton: So, uh, it was Don Bray who invited you back to the, into the Marion Police Department and he apparently also invited these other three --

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes.

Nancy Pemberton: From, from the West Memphis Police Department?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes.

Nancy Pemberton: Can you tell me what happened on May 7th when you were there at the Marion Police Department?

Victoria Hutcheson: They, uh, took my son into a room and talked with him.

Nancy Pemberton: And who is they?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, Don Bray, Gary Gitchell, Sudbury and Bryn Ridge.

Nancy Pemberton: Do you have an idea about how long that interview lasted?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, it seemed like it went forever, uh, maybe an hour or so.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh-huh. Did you, uh, have any, uh, subsequent conversation with any of the police officers, including Don Bray, about what Aaron had said to them that day?

Victoria Hutcheson: What do you mean?

Nancy Pemberton: Did the police ever tell you what Aaron said that day?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, I had no idea what Aaron had said. Uh, Don had just told me he had pertinent information. That, uh, he also thought that Aaron needed to talk to West Memphis Police Department.

Nancy Pemberton: So Don never told you what Aaron said?

Victoria Hutcheson: No.

Nancy Pemberton: Did either, did Gitchell, Ridge or Sudbury ever say anything to you about what he had said?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, they just told me that, that, uh, that they might need to talk to him again or some kind of legally you know kind of like legal stuff.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. Did Aaron tell you what he talked to them about?

Victoria Hutcheson: Aaron couldn't talk to me about it. Aaron still doesn't talk to me about it to this day.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, how -- after the meeting on Septem -- uh, May 7th, how frequently did you and Aaron, uh, talk to the police for the next couple of weeks?

Victoria Hutcheson: It seemed like I talked to them everyday. They -- it seemed like they always wanted to interview Aaron all the time.

Nancy Pemberton: And by they do you mean Don Bray or do you mean the people from the West Memphis Police Department?

Victoria Hutcheson: Both. It would be both of them. [Uh, they put] -- if Don wasn't [unintelligible], West Memphis did.

Nancy Pemberton: Where were these, uh, interviews, where did the interviews with Aaron take place?

Victoria Hutcheson: Mostly at the, uh, the Drug Task Force Building in West Memphis. And there was different ones. We had them at, at Don Bray's, uh, office and also had them at his, uh, Marion -- he owns the Marion storage buildings. We had them there. We've had them, uh, in Jerry Driver's office.

Nancy Pemberton: Did you ever -- were you ever interviewed at the West Memphis Police Department?

Victoria Hutcheson: I went several times. Do you mean at the police department in West --?

Nancy Pemberton: Yes.

Victoria Hutcheson: No.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. Uh, in each of these meetings you've mentioned, uh, let's start with the, the, uh, storage building. Uh, how many times do you think that you met with the police there?

Victoria Hutcheson: Just once.

Nancy Pemberton: And was Aaron present at that meeting?

Victoria Hutcheson: I think so.

Nancy Pemberton: Were you allowed to listen to them interview Aaron at that meeting?

Victoria Hutcheson: They mostly talked to me at that meeting.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. Was Aaron in the room when they talked with you or was Aaron someplace else?

Victoria Hutcheson: He was probably outside playing. Don was probably playing with him.

Nancy Pemberton: And who was interviewing you in the office?

Victoria Hutcheson: Gary.

Nancy Pemberton: Was there anybody else other than Gary -- and by Gary you mean Gary Gitchell?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: Gary Gitchell and Bryn Ridge.

Nancy Pemberton: Both of them.

Victoria Hutcheson: It was always them together.

Nancy Pemberton: At the -- so there was one time there?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: How about at the Drug Task Force? How many times do you think you met them there?

Victoria Hutcheson: I [don't have any idea.] Quite a few times; over five or six at least.

Nancy Pemberton: As many as 10 times do you think?

Victoria Hutcheson: Could be.

Nancy Pemberton: And, uh, who were, who was present at those meetings?

Victoria Hutcheson: Well everyone from the Drug Task Force had been in there, but, uh, the ones that I seen were Sudbury and Bryn Ridge and Gary Gitchell. Mostly that's who I talked to.

Nancy Pemberton: When you talked to them at the Drug Task Force, where in that building were you meeting with them?

Victoria Hutcheson: When they talked to me it was in this little room, uh, off to the right, uh, with a desk and a tape recorder.

Nancy Pemberton: Did they --

Victoria Hutcheson: And two chairs.

Nancy Pemberton: Excuse me. Did they tape all of your conversations with them?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes. They always asked me was it okay to tape and I always told them, "Yeah." They taped it.

Nancy Pemberton: Were there times when they didn't tape the, the conversation?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes.

Nancy Pemberton: And was there any sort of rhyme or reason to when they would or when they wouldn't within reason if you could tell?

Victoria Hutcheson: There was -- there was a, uh -- well [unintelligible] would say things that they didn't want anybody else to hear. They were dirty. West Memphis Police Department is dirty.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. By dirty -- you need to explain what you mean by dirty.

Victoria Hutcheson: They, uh, they want to trick you into saying what they want you to say.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. These five to 10 meetings at the Drug Task Force, were these -- did these all occur, uh, before the arrest of the three charged in the, in -- for the homicides or were these both before and after?

Victoria Hutcheson: Before and after.

Nancy Pemberton: Can you separate out how many times you think you met with them before the arrests at the Drug Task Force?

Victoria Hutcheson: More before than after.

Nancy Pemberton: So if there were 10, for example, there would be no --

Victoria Hutcheson: About six before and four after.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. Good. Uh, how did you get from the, uh, how did you get to the Drug Task Force office or to Don Bray's storage unit?

Victoria Hutcheson: When I went to Don Bray's I drove my truck. But, uh, if I went to the Drug Task Force, they would come and pick me up in a black car and Bryn Ridge was always driving.

Nancy Pemberton: At the Drug Task Force were there times that they interviewed Aaron and not you?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes.

Nancy Pemberton: And where would you be when they were doing that?

Victoria Hutcheson: I would have to sit out there and drink a pop or sit out in, in a room where they have a pool table and like a refrigerator and all kinds of different stuff. I did happen to see once when they interviewed Aaron -- [Coughs] -- they opened the door to let him out and they had like -- I don't know if you remember, but in Sunday School they have like this felt board --

Nancy Pemberton: Yes.

Victoria Hutcheson: And they used to put pictures. Well they had a big picture of [unintelligible] up on it and then little pictures around it. And, uh, that's, that's what I saw when, when I you know grabbed his hand and took him out. And, uh, he told me that he just had to pick stuff off of there.

Nancy Pemberton: And was this before they, before they were arrested?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. Were you asked to sign, uh, some documents by the West Memphis Police --

Victoria Hutcheson: Several times --

Nancy Pemberton: Or other people? Okay. Can we talk about the variety of documents that you were, uh, required to sign. Uh, let's start with sort of releases for information. Was there, were there any releases for information that you were required to --?

Victoria Hutcheson: They had to have mine and Aaron's release for information to the East Arkansas Clinic.

Nancy Pemberton: And is that the East Arkansas Mental Health Clinic?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: And, uh, that's where Aaron and I were both seen for treatment. I also had to have a release for Aaron to be examined by the pediatrician in West Memphis to find out if he had been raped or not. I signed an affidavit of silence to say that I never heard my son say that Mark Byers was involved in the murders. And, uh, I also had, uh -- I signed several different things just, uh, that my statements were true or just different [unintelligible] like that.

Nancy Pemberton: Was there, uh, uh, something that you had to sign for them to -- in connection with them taping some --?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, for them to wire my house. They asked me to wire my house that, uh, so I could set Damien up. And, uh, they wanted to come in and wire my home and I had to sign a release for that.

Nancy Pemberton: And were you, uh -- okay so, so that's another form that you had to sign.

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: And then was there anything in connection with, uh -- did you sign anything in connection with a polygraph?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes. I had to sign for my poly -- Aaron and I both took a polygraph.

Nancy Pemberton: And when you did that they asked you to sign something --

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes.

Nancy Pemberton: In connection with that? Okay. Do you remember anything else that you might have had to sign?

Victoria Hutcheson: Not right off my head.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. Uh, during the time that you are -- before the arrest, other than going to the Drug Task Force, were you receiving phone calls or in contact with anyone else, uh, for instance, Don Bray or Jerry Driver?

Victoria Hutcheson: John -- Don Bray and then Don Bray took me to meet Jerry Driver. I met him -- well he actually came, he actually came to the Marion Police Department once. But, uh, one time Don and I went to, uh, to the, to the, uh, courthouse where Jerry's, uh, office is and talked with him and he told me all kinds of stories about Damien; how weird he was and how you know the things that he did.

Nancy Pemberton: Let me, let me stop you there because -- and then I'll ask you some questions about that. Uh, how frequently were you hearing from Don Bray during the time prior to the arrest of Damien and, uh, Jason and Jessie?

Victoria Hutcheson: Almost everyday.

Nancy Pemberton: And how were you hearing from him?

Victoria Hutcheson: The phone or you know go down there or he would you know -- just somehow we contacted each other.

Nancy Pemberton: You mentioned that you went and met Jerry Driver at the Marion Police Department at one time.

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: And you also had mentioned sort of at the outset of this that you had met the West Memphis Police at the Marion Police Department.

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: Other than those two occasions, was there any other time after the bodies were found that you were at the Marion Police Department?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes. I went to the Marion Police Department and, uh, Don Bray talked with me about setting that meeting up for him and Jerry and, uh --

Nancy Pemberton: And that was separate than the first time that you met Jerry?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: And, uh, then to convince me about Damien he took me to Jerry.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. So let's talk about the time. About how long after, uh, the boys were, the boys went missing did you meet Jerry Driver at the Marion Police Department? Give or take.

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, it was probably a couple weeks.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. And, uh, tell me a little bit about that. What happens?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, we went in there and I know, knew that Jerry Driver was a probation officer because I had met him down at the Marion Police Department. He was Don's friend. And, uh, he had told me about all the times that Damien had been, uh, on probation with him and how he had had such a hard time and he'd had to put him in hospitals because he was just really crazy. That he was a problem boy. That he like, he even tried to -- threatened to [ unintelligible] his father through the door of the closet, a room or something. He just had me all kinds of convinced about this boy. And I, I really expected a, a monster.

Nancy Pemberton: And this was, this conversation took place at the Marion Police Department or at Jerry Driver's house?

Victoria Hutcheson: The courthouse.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. So back up for one minute to the time, uh, the first time that you meet Driver, which is at the Marion Police Department. Had you -- did you know who he was before you met him?

Victoria Hutcheson: No.

Nancy Pemberton: You had had no contact with him--

Victoria Hutcheson: No.

Nancy Pemberton: Through the juvenile probation or anything?

Victoria Hutcheson: No.

Nancy Pemberton: And, uh, so you're in Don Bray's office, presumably with Jerry Driver?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: And what does he say at that point?

Victoria Hutcheson: He's just kind of telling me that, uh, what he thinks about these murders. And he said that, uh, he said he had talked to Don and he knew, he knew about the story and, uh, here's what he thought. He was just more or less laying it out you know. And more or less saying that Damien was guilty. It was always just Damien you know.

Nancy Pemberton: Why, if West Memphis -- I mean the crime occurred in West Memphis. The West Memphis Police Department are investigating this. What do you think is Don Bray's and Jerry Driver's motivation?

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't have any idea. They just seemed like they were just driven you know to -- well it was so bad that Don Bray had a stroke from it. And, uh, I don't know. I have no idea. All I know is that they were working -- you know if Gary was [unintelligible] -- I don't know.

Nancy Pemberton: And so you meet him at the Marion Police Department. Does anything come out of that meeting? Does anybody ask you to do anything during that meeting or is this just sort of an informational thing?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, they kind of, they kind of alluded to a, uh, would I? You know would I be willing to, uh, do this.

Nancy Pemberton: And what is this?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, like try to get, uh, Damien to talk to me because I do hang out with the kids at -- uh, you know I had a lot of kids around at my trailer because Jessie did hang out there and so they were wanting to know if I know Damien. Well I didn't know Damien or Jason or -- I did know Jessie. But, uh --

Nancy Pemberton: Did you know whether -- at that point when you are being asked to do this, did you know whether Jessie knew Damien?

Victoria Hutcheson: I heard Jessie say something about a kid that drank blood. You know that it was really weird and he had [unintelligible] friends and they were around that trailer park and wore a trench coat. Just you know gossip.

Nancy Pemberton: And so when, when Jessie is talking about this person, he's not talking about him as a friend, he's talking about him as this kind of weird guy over there in another place?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: Did you, did you think that they were actually friends or did you think that he just kind of knew him?

Victoria Hutcheson: I thought he just might know him. I didn't think they would be friends.

Nancy Pemberton: And, uh, so then you go to the courthouse.

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, is, is there much time between the time that you meet him at the Marion Police Department and the time --

Victoria Hutcheson: No, it was --

Nancy Pemberton: And the time you go to the courthouse?

Victoria Hutcheson: It was really close.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. So you go to the courthouse and what happens at the courthouse?

Victoria Hutcheson: At the courthouse Jerry is more or less convincing me that Damien is guilty. I mean they had me totally convinced that Damien was guilty. And, uh, they never involved anyone else in it, but, uh, they talked about Damien like he was Jeffrey Dahmer you know. And I thought, "Oh my god, you know this kid is running around loose and you know my little boy is -- I've got a child eight-years-old." [Coughs] Of course I was going to help if I could help. And so Don tells me I should get some witchcraft books and that he has a Marion Library card and I can use that, but he didn't go into the library with me. I went in by myself.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. Uh, what did they ask you do to? Well let me say; did they ask you to do this at the courthouse? Is that where this conversation where they specifically asked you to do something?

Victoria Hutcheson: Do I think -- they asked me do I think I could get, uh, Jessie to introduce me to Damien.

Nancy Pemberton: And what did you tell them?

Victoria Hutcheson: And I told them, "Well yeah, Jessie knows him. You know I'm pretty sure he would." And that's when, uh, West Memphis became involved.

Nancy Pemberton: And how did West Memphis become involved?

Victoria Hutcheson: Because they come over to my house and, uh, I signed a release form. They came over to my house like they were a cable company and, uh, Sudbury came in --

Nancy Pemberton: Say that again.

Victoria Hutcheson: Sudbury came in and did it. [He hid] a big, a big -- I don't know what it's called; transmitter or whatever underneath my bed in my bedroom; a wire that went out my bedroom window and then a multi-plug-in thing that I had to plug in and you plug the lamp into it to make it work.

Nancy Pemberton: And what did you tell them about, uh, them putting in this big -- what was the pretense for putting this in? The pretext, excuse me.

Victoria Hutcheson: They, uh, wanted me to invite Damien over.

Nancy Pemberton: But when they're putting all of this stuff in, they don't want everybody in the trailer park to know what it, what it was, right?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah. They were trying to be discrete, but yet I'm a poor, I'm a poor little, uh, divorced woman with a husband that just ran off and two kids to support and living in a little gross trailer park and they're coming in with this big fancy cable van and I was like, "That's very -- don't you think that looks a little stupid to be driving up in this poor girl's driveway putting in big cables?" And he was like, "Well I really didn't think about it." And I was like, "That's so stupid." Because they did, they put it -- they tried to discrete, yet if anyone had been watching them they would have you know blown it right there. But yeah, they were stupid.

Nancy Pemberton: So at this point, where is, where is Aaron?

Victoria Hutcheson: Aaron went to stay -- there was so much coverage on the, uh, TV in West Memphis, uh; I mean I'm a mom and my little boy is nine-years-old and these were his best friends. I don't know whether he's been involved in it. I don't care. Those were still his best friends and, uh, whether or not he seen it, he's still hurt and everyday there was something new on TV. And I didn't want him to see it everyday.

Nancy Pemberton: Yeah, yeah.

Victoria Hutcheson: So I sent him to, uh, to my sister's in [unintelligible].

Nancy Pemberton: How long did he -- and how long did he stay there do you think?

Victoria Hutcheson: About a week. Uh, he can't stay very long because of Mom.

Nancy Pemberton: Without you you mean?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

[Laughter]

Nancy Pemberton: Are you okay?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: Do you want a little water?

Victoria Hutcheson: [unintelligible].

Nancy Pemberton: Uh --

Victoria Hutcheson: I'm sorry.

Nancy Pemberton: No, that's okay. That's all right. Uh, I totally understand it's an emotional thing to think about, isn't it? And you know you've been carrying this with you for a long time.

Victoria Hutcheson: Almost 11 years.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, when, uh -- so tell me about your, your trailer is now wired, right?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes.

Nancy Pemberton: Have you talked to Jessie yet about, uh, hooking up with Damien?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, but Jessie's at my house everyday so, uh, Jessie comes over and we were sitting there and just you know talking. I said, "Jess do you know Damien Echols?" And he just gave me this weird look like, "Well yeah." And, uh --

Nancy Pemberton: You know, let me back up a little because I think I forgot something. You had gone to the library?

Victoria Hutcheson: I went to the library and got those witch books.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay, so you have the -- the, the trailer is wired and you already have the books?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, they're out on the coffee table.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. How is it that -- I mean Don suggested that you go to the library and get them. What were you supposed to use the books for?

Victoria Hutcheson: Well I'm going to kind of -- if Damien comes over I'm just going to kind of bring the subject up that I want to like get into something like that. You know they told me that and I told him that I really didn't think I fit the part. You know I'm a mom with two kids and I've got a boyfriend next door. You know I just really didn't fit the part of being -- wanting to be with a teenage witch you know. So, uh, anyway they blew that off. So, uh, I said, "Well if you think I can then I'll go ahead and do it." So I put the books all on my, my, uh, coffee table, but poor Jessie can't read, you know barely. So, so he's sitting there -- he comes over to the house and he's sitting there. Well he's pretty much -- he probably seen them, but he didn't have any idea what it was. I'm sure he saw some pictures. He don't say nothing because he can't even really read it. So, uh, and we're like talking and I said, "Do you know Damien?" He said, "Yeah. Well you know he's kind of weird." And I said, "Well do you think you could like introduce me to him?" He just goes, "What for?" And, uh, I said, "Well I've been thinking he's kind of hot. " And he just goes, "What! You think he's hot?" You know because I'm like 30-years-old. And you know I just didn't fit the part.

Nancy Pemberton: No.

Victoria Hutcheson: And he's like, "Yeah, I guess I can if you want to meet him." And you know poor old Jessie is just good-hearted, you know. He'll do anything for you. And, uh, so he said, "Well I can talk to him if you're sure you want go out with him." And I said, "Well I really do Jess. Now really hook that up for me." And he did. He went over and saw Damien I guess the next day or that night or something. He made a special trip over there to tell Damien that here's this old woman thinking he's hot you know. And I'm sure Damien wanted to check that out. He didn't know. And he already had a girlfriend anyway. So, uh, Jess comes back and tells me, "Well yeah he said he'll meet you and everything." And he was trying to tell me; he said, "You know how weird he is don't you?" He's trying to tell me again. And I was like, "It's okay Jess; it's okay." He's like, "Okay, you know it's up to you." And, uh, so then we made arrangements to go pick up Damien.

Nancy Pemberton: How long after this was that?

Victoria Hutcheson: Probably the next day. Uh, I drove a little Toyota truck so it was like one of those little -- we're all connected there together. And Jessie gets out when we get over and Jason [unintelligible]. Jason I didn't know about at the time. But we were at Jason's picking him up and --

Nancy Pemberton: Let me interrupt you. Why did you pick him up? Why didn't Damien just meet you?

Victoria Hutcheson: Damien doesn't drive.

Nancy Pemberton: And how did you know that?

Victoria Hutcheson: Jessie told me.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. So when Jessie said, "Okay, he's ready to go. He's willing to meet you," --

Victoria Hutcheson: I said, "Well [are we going to pick him up] or can he drive over here?" He goes, "No," he goes, "Damien don't drive." He said, "He walks everywhere."

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: So, uh --

Nancy Pemberton: So now you go over and you get --

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, I go get him over at Jason's house, which I thought was Damien's house. And I guess the reason that was was because Jason actually wanted to see me you know. [Laughs] So, uh, because he was looking out when -- [Laughs] -- it was this big joke. And, uh, so Jessie gets out of the truck and says, "Here you can sit in the middle. " [Laughs]

Nancy Pemberton: He says that to Damien?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah. And Damien is looking at him crazy and, and then Jess just you know -- [Laughs] -- thinking it's real funny. And I just -- I was just like wanting to die you know because then I'm like, "Well this is not going to work." Because I'm like almost old enough to be this kid's mom. [Laughs] So, uh, he gets in the truck and he's just this ordinary old kid you know. He's got some black hair and that's about it. [unintelligible] real dark, dark hair. So, uh, we dropped some movies off at Block Buster and then went over to my house and we were going to hang out. And, uh, I tried to pump him for information like they wanted me to.

Nancy Pemberton: Who is at the house?

Victoria Hutcheson: Christy [Anderson], uh, the Jessie gets -- [me and] Jessie Misskelley, me and then Damien.

Nancy Pemberton: And about what time of the day is this do you think?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, I guess it was probably early evening.

Nancy Pemberton: So you're all in your trailer?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. And do you trigger the wire that --?

Victoria Hutcheson: I turned it on the minute we walked in you know because it's, you know it's got to be a little dark, so I have to plug that little lamp in and, uh, Damien sat down right, right beside it. To make sure that everything that we said was going to be heard, I sat like right over here beside him. And, uh, Christy and Jessie were sitting there. Uh, Jessie went outside to laugh a couple times, as a matter of fact. He was so, he was so caught up. And I offered Damien a Dr. Pepper to drink and, uh, he was nervous smoking cigarette after cigarette. I was like, uh -- he said, he said, uh, something about -- I said, "You're a little nervous, aren't you?" And he said, "Well you'd be nervous, too, if, uh, they thought you killed three kids. " You know and I was like, "Did you kill three kids?" And asked him, "Why would they think you of all people?" And he goes, "Because I'm weird I guess you know." And I was like, "Well did you kill them?" And he said, "Well no. I wouldn't do something like that," like I was stupid. And he was just like any other kid his age you know. He was just a normal kid. And, uh, I'm thinking, "Man, do they got the wrong kid. This kid is not what they made him out to be." Uh, I had that stuff all spread out there on the thing so I'm thinking, "Well I need to bring up something about the witchcraft thing." And we're watching the movie Grease and I just kind of bring it up that I want to -- I was interested in demonic stuff and all that. He looks at me like I'm crazy you know like....He goes, "No, I really can't help you out." [Laughs]

Nancy Pemberton: Did you ask him if he could help you with something?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, well I kind of said, "You know I could get involved in you know this, uh, in demonic you know witchcraft stuff." He goes, "Well I really couldn't help you out." He thought I was stupid. And, uh, Jessie just couldn't believe I was saying all that. You know he's like, "What is wrong with her?" And, uh, so it wasn't very long after Damien just disappeared. He was just gone. He thought he was getting out while the getting was good you know. [Laughs]

Nancy Pemberton: So when you say he disappeared, he just left your trailer?

Victoria Hutcheson: He just left, yeah.

[Laughter]

Nancy Pemberton: Did Jessie say anything to you?

Victoria Hutcheson: Oh yeah, he's like, "Man," he goes, "If he had the hots for you you really blew that." [Laughs] Just stuff like that and we were just kidding around and stuff. You know joking around talking about booze and just Jessie's girlfriend and just different stuff you know. Just like we always did and, uh, Christy left after that and then me and Jessie sat there and drank for a little while. A couple of drinks and, uh, you know just joked around about the whole ordeal. And I was thinking how stupid I looked to be doing it you know.

Nancy Pemberton: Subsequently to that night, uh, did the police come and take the tape and the tape recorder and stuff?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, they come, they come about three days after that and got it.

Nancy Pemberton: Did you call them and tell them what had happened?

Victoria Hutcheson: Oh yeah, I called, I called Don [unintelligible].

Nancy Pemberton: [unintelligible] --

Victoria Hutcheson: And I said, "Damien came over," and, uh, Damien is really not the guy they thought he was. And I said, "Maybe Jerry Driver you know [unintelligible] back when, but the boy [unintelligible]. I said, uh, "Maybe he drinks blood or whatever, but..." Oh yeah, he told me they asked him about the drinking blood thing and he said, "It keep people away from me."

Nancy Pemberton: And what did he mean by that? I mean did you think that he actually drank blood?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, I think that he's just, he just don't like people. More or less wanted to be by himself you know, which is how my oldest son is, so you know now I understand really. But, uh, he just really didn't like too many people hassling him so he became weird so they'd leave him alone. Because you don't walk up to people that you think drinks blood you know or have conversation with them.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, so they leave. So what does Don Bray say to you when you told him that this is not the kid --?

Victoria Hutcheson: "Oh that's good, that's good." You know I didn't tell him what all they said. He said, "I'll call West Memphis right now and have them come and pick it up." And he did. Sudbury came and picked it up.

Nancy Pemberton: And, uh, was Sudbury alone when he came and picked it up?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: Had you listened to the tapes there, uh, uh, before you, before you sent it?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, no, I didn't how to work that thing. That was a great big -- I don't even know what it was. It was this great big old thing underneath my bed and I just left it there. And then, uh, he came and got that and [unintelligible] the little deal out. [Coughs]

Nancy Pemberton: So did you ever hear the tapes?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah. The next day they come and got me and, uh, asked me to come listen to the tapes and I did. And --

Nancy Pemberton: Where did you go?

Victoria Hutcheson: To the DA place.

Nancy Pemberton: The DTF, the Drug Task --?

Victoria Hutcheson: DTF, uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: And where are you meeting with them? Where are you listening to the tape?

Victoria Hutcheson: I was listening to the tape in this other room that they have with this really long table and they had that big old thing that they have and they had taken the tape out, which didn't look like tapes. They looked like different things and stuck them in this little machine. And I heard the tapes and they kept telling me that didn't sound like Damien.

Nancy Pemberton: How many tapes were there?

Victoria Hutcheson: Two.

Nancy Pemberton: And was Damien on both of those tapes?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, just on one.

Nancy Pemberton: Could you hear the tape?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes.

Nancy Pemberton: Could you hear what people were saying on the tape?

Victoria Hutcheson: Very much so.

Nancy Pemberton: Was there any doubt in your mind that it was the tape that had been --?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, it was definitely my tape that we had taped. Uh, it just ruined everything they said about Damien you know. Because he was not at all like they said he was.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. When you that it ruined everything, you mean what was on the tape; the content of the tape didn't match --?

Victoria Hutcheson: Didn't match what they wanted it to say.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. What the -- who was there when you were listening to this?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, Tiny, uh, this big old cop we called Tiny and Gary Gitchell, Bryn Ridge, uh, I think Sudbury was there.

Nancy Pemberton: Was Don Bray there?

Victoria Hutcheson: Nuh-uh.

Nancy Pemberton: Was Jerry --?

Victoria Hutcheson: But those other guys that were there, the DA guys.

Nancy Pemberton: Was Jerry Driver there?

Victoria Hutcheson: No.

Nancy Pemberton: After you see Driver in the courthouse and he basically convinces you that Damien is the right person and then you agree to do this, did you ever see Driver again or talk to him again?

Victoria Hutcheson: No.

Nancy Pemberton: After this tape -- they play the tape, what happens then?

Victoria Hutcheson: They, uh, they made me feel guilty like I had ruined something of theirs you know. Like, uh, I didn't do the right job.

Nancy Pemberton: Was Aaron still gone or was he back by this time?

Victoria Hutcheson: He was home.

Nancy Pemberton: And, uh, was he with you when you were at the DTF or --?

Victoria Hutcheson: When I heard the tapes?

Nancy Pemberton: Yeah.

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't think so.

Nancy Pemberton: Do you remember how you got to the DTF office that day?

Victoria Hutcheson: I always [unintelligible] with Bryn. Bryn always came to pick me up because my truck could not be there. They didn't want my truck to be seen by the prosecution. I mean by the defense, or whoever it was.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. But at this point we're still -- this is pre-arrest, right?

Victoria Hutcheson: Oh this is -- okay. Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: This is pre-arrest, right?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: But they just don't want you--

Victoria Hutcheson: They don't ever -- yeah, they never want me seen.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: So they make you feel guilty, but is there -- you hear the tapes; they give you sort of a hard time about this apparently, or at least enough to make you feel guilty. Then do they take you home? What happens?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, I don't remember. They took me home. Uh, [I think] that's the day I talked to Bryn. I don't remember.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. What's the next thing you remember happening, whether it was that day or sometime after?

Victoria Hutcheson: I remember that Bryn Ridge took me into this little room and --

Nancy Pemberton: And this is at the DTF office again?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah. Uh, this is the same day. This is the day after, after I listened to the tapes. He says to me, "You know that you're kind of the link between -- you know the little guys and you know the big guys and you're kind of the link between the two." And he said, "It would, uh, it would be really awful you know if you became the" -- anyway, what he was saying was that I would be linked between Jessie, Damien and Jason and, and, uh, Michael, Chris and Steve, and that I would be the link between them to link them. And, uh, and he said that if things don't start going like you know he wants them to; we need it to go into this and into the satanic related you know whatever. But, uh, more or less I was going to say exactly what they want me to say. And they also told me it would be a shame if I lost Aaron over this whole thing.

Nancy Pemberton: Who was in the room with you at that point?

Victoria Hutcheson: Me and Bryn.

Nancy Pemberton: And so while you're in this room with -- it was just the two of you -- he's informed you that he wants you to make a connection with the satanic cult.

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes.

Nancy Pemberton: And if you don't, you may be held liable to the homicide?

Victoria Hutcheson: I'd be the link, uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: And you may lose your son?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: What was your reaction to that?

Victoria Hutcheson: I said, "Wait, what are you going to do? You're going to, uh, you're going to try to link me to the murders?" And he said, "Well you know things are going to start going a certain way and it's got to start going our way." I don't remember everything he said, but he was just real scary. It was real scary when he said it.

Nancy Pemberton: What, uh, what do you -- what happens? What do you say?

Victoria Hutcheson: "Whatever. Okay. Whatever you want me to do."

Nancy Pemberton: And what did he then say that he wanted you to do?

Victoria Hutcheson: That, uh, we're going to have a -- I don't remember exactly what he said. I just remember that, uh, he starts -- he gets out the tape recorder -- no it was the next day. I come back. I rested and, uh, he said that I could have time to you know just ponder it, think about it, whatever and that, uh, he'll corne and get me the next day. And he come and got me the next day and I spent 12-and-a-half hours in there. And, uh, every time that I would mess up you know and say something wrong, he would shut it down and say, "Now did it happen like that? Are you sure it happened like that?" and turn it back on.

Nancy Pemberton: What were they asking you about during this, uh, tape recorded conversation?

Victoria Hutcheson: He said -- he started out, he said, "Now wasn't it a satanic place that you went?" And I said, "Yeah." And, uh, he, he was like, "An esbat wasn't it?" And I said, "Yeah, an esbat meeting. That's where I went." And then I just started making up stuff as I went because I didn't know what else to do and I did. And, uh, I named off people out of my head. All of it. And they all just kind of, uh, uh -- I don't know where Don Bray -- I just don't know. I can't remember exactly.

Nancy Pemberton: When you go back for this tape recorded conversation, which is the -- okay, so there is the, there is the day that you meet him at the Drug Task Force and Bryn Ridge makes it clear to you that you're supposed to cooperate.

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: With them. And that's just a meeting with the two of you?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: Was there any other officers, were there any other officers at the Drug Task Force that were sort of aware and participating? You know was Gary Gitchell outside? Was, uh, uh, Lt. Sudbury outside? Was --

Victoria Hutcheson: Out in the --?

Nancy Pemberton: Yeah, anywhere you know around.

Victoria Hutcheson: Gary Gitchell and there, there was a bunch of [different] ones. Gary Gitchell was the, uh -- he didn't -- he wouldn't hang out much after that. He was just kind of -- I don't know. It was just weird. It was all weird.

Nancy Pemberton: So once you, uh, produced the tape you didn't see very much of Gitchell?

Victoria Hutcheson: Nuh-uh.

Nancy Pemberton: At that point, are you dealing -- who are you dealing mostly with?

Victoria Hutcheson: Ridge.

Nancy Pemberton: With Bryn Ridge?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: And is Lt. Sudbury around at all?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, he's around, but he's not -- it's like Bryn Ridge is the bad cop. I don't know if you know what I mean. Like you're stared down you know and Gitchell's the good cop. The kind and you know he's the one that's going to show you mercy or whatever. And, uh, it's like it's all Ridge now. Uh, and they talked to Aaron several times then you know after that, but -- Gary did, but not -- he didn't talk to me too much. Well basically because he knew that what I was doing.

Nancy Pemberton: And so it's Ridge that gives you the story about the esbat?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: Did he say what he wanted from you about that? I mean--

Victoria Hutcheson: No, he just, uh, just, uh -- I can't explain it. It's just, just weird. Like a, uh, you kind of just know what to do. I guess like Jessie's confession was you know. He just shuts it down and tells you. It's like a, uh, non-stop you know [feeds you [unintelligible] and if you know how to go, you're there.

Nancy Pemberton: And so does this 12-and-a-half hour day. Is there anyone outside that you're talking to about this that knows?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, god I would have been so scared to. I was scared of them.

Nancy Pemberton: Did you -- you had a boyfriend at the time?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: Was he at all aware that you were [unintelligible]?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, I had him -- he and I started dating, we started dating when Damien starting coming around. We didn't really get serious until after it got -- when the trial started.

Nancy Pemberton: Let me ask you this. You said when Damien started coming around. Was --?

Victoria Hutcheson: When Damien came around that one day.

Nancy Pemberton: Was there any other time that you saw Damien?

Victoria Hutcheson: I talked to him on the phone once and that was it.

Nancy Pemberton: And when was that?

Victoria Hutcheson: That was like the day after the tapes when they wanted me to -- they had made me realize maybe I should call him you know and see if I couldn't get him back over there. I'm like, "He's not coming back over there." And, uh, I called him, but I did call him on the phone and he said, "I'm sitting here looking at the FBI right now. I'm not going a damn place," you know. He was just like, "Nuh-uh." He was staying in that trailer.

Nancy Pemberton: So you called up and said, "Do you want to come over?"

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, I said, "Hey, why don't you come down and hang out." And you know he didn't want to hang out the first time, but, uh --

Nancy Pemberton: But he said something about the FBI being there?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, the FBI. He said, "I'm looking out the window right now at the FBI." And then I called -- that's when I was mad at Gitchell as a matter of fact.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. So tell me about that.

Victoria Hutcheson: I went up to Gitchell's office and I walked in there and I said, "How, how in the crud do you expect somebody -- if you've got the FBI sitting outside their house and you want me to set him up?" You know I was like, "That's so stupid." And that was the day that, uh, that's the day I got mad at Gitchell for that.

Nancy Pemberton: So after you got off the phone you went, you went to--

Victoria Hutcheson: I went to Gitchell's office.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: To scream at him.

Nancy Pemberton: Was there anything that you saw?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, there was, uh, there was pictures of Damien, Jessie and Jason hanging above the, uh, his desk. I got really upset about that and I told him that I just didn't know you know why he wanted Jessie at all, because I had no idea [they got] Jessie. Because until the day they announced it on TV, I did not know that Jessie was involved in anything. Uh, so I guess I don't remember. Just Damien or Jason or -- anyway their -- maybe it was afterwards, but I remember they had pictures up there and they were throwing darts at them. And I thought that was just inhuman to do that. Even had they done it, I would think that's inhuman.

Nancy Pemberton: And this was, this was at Gitchell's office that you saw it?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: But now you're not sure when you saw it.

Victoria Hutcheson: I'm not sure when it was.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay, okay. But you do, you do--

Victoria Hutcheson: I remember specifically there was pictures hanging of the boys, but I don't remember when exactly it was.

Nancy Pemberton: So, uh, other than this phone call -- okay, so the meeting -- the audio taped meeting with or you know the get-together with Damien at your trailer and this one phone call the following day, any other contact with Damien?

Victoria Hutcheson: None at all.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. Uh, so then you have this, this marathon I'll call it, the 12-and-a-half hour interview with, with Ridge. At that time it is only Ridge that is there. There is nobody else in the room?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, just Ridge.

Nancy Pemberton: And where -- which room are you in?

Victoria Hutcheson: That one room with the desk with a chair and the [unintelligible] tape recorder.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. At the DTF office?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: During this 12-and-a-half hours do you get up and go to the bathroom? Does he bring you something to drink? Does he let you make phone calls? What's going on?

Victoria Hutcheson: I went to the bathroom. No, he doesn't give me anything to drink. No smoke, nothing.

Nancy Pemberton: So there were no breaks during the time?

Victoria Hutcheson: No.

Nancy Pemberton: Anything to eat?

Victoria Hutcheson: No.

Nancy Pemberton: How did you get --

Victoria Hutcheson: Nothing.

Nancy Pemberton: How did you get there that day?

Victoria Hutcheson: [He came and] picked me up.

Nancy Pemberton: And you're work -- were you working at the time?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, because I lost my job.

Nancy Pemberton: How did you lose your job?

Victoria Hutcheson: Because I got fired over the credit card thing.

Nancy Pemberton: How soon after you're first meeting with Don Bray, uh, on May 6th, did you get fired?

Victoria Hutcheson: Two days later I think.

Nancy Pemberton: So you were unemployed throughout this whole time period?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: So you're basically available?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah. [unintelligible].

Nancy Pemberton: Night and day?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. Uh, other than this 12-and-a-half hour marathon, were you taped after that? Were you ever audio taped after that marathon that you remember? And that's by the police, of course.

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't think so.

Nancy Pemberton: But your memory is is that the tape is going on and off during this, this time?

Victoria Hutcheson: I'm positive about that, because I kept going, "How can you do that?" Yeah, the tape went on and off. And then after you get the story right, then you play it, the whole thing. He went through the whole thing and [play it right]. [I mean] that's the tape.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. So you are having a tape recorded this through this 12-and-a half hours. Is he having to change the tape? I mean is it --?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, he changed the tape.

Nancy Pemberton: And so, so he's, he's tape recording the conversation, but then at the end you, you did a sort of a summary?

Victoria Hutcheson: Redo -- yeah. Then you redo. "Oh this is it. This is right. This is good. This is what we need. [unintelligible]. Do you understand? That's what you, that's what your -- and that's your story. That's what you stick to."

Nancy Pemberton: Was that tape played to you subsequently? Did you ever hear that tape again?

Victoria Hutcheson: No. The --

Nancy Pemberton: The, the, the -- we'll characterize it as the --

Victoria Hutcheson: As that [unintelligible] one?

Nancy Pemberton: Yeah.

Victoria Hutcheson: No. I never heard all that. I testified to it, but I lied on the stand. Uh --

Nancy Pemberton: Let's pick that up right there. I shouldn't just let that sit on the table. Uh, talk to me a little bit about this is -- you testified at Jessie's trial?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes.

Nancy Pemberton: Tell me about when did you first meet the prosecutor?

Victoria Hutcheson: When, uh, he wanted Aaron, Aaron to be tested and see if he was raped.

Nancy Pemberton: This is John Fogelman?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: And when was that? Was that before or after the boys were arrested?

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't remember.

Nancy Pemberton: Did -- at that time, did he ask you for anything other than permission to have Aaron, uh, examined?

Victoria Hutcheson: John Fogelman didn't ask me for anything [unintelligible].

Nancy Pemberton: Was there any other conversations that you had with Fogelman at any time up until Jessie's trial? And that's a no?

Victoria Hutcheson: No.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: Sorry.

Nancy Pemberton: That's all right. I mean I can see you shaking your head, but I want to make sure that it's clear. And how about the other prosecutor, Brent Davis?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, Brent Davis came back there whenever -- I was back in the back room or whatever behind, behind the, uh, judge's stuff or whatever.

Nancy Pemberton: Right.

Victoria Hutcheson: And, uh, I had I don't know who they were back there consoling me. Uh, but anyway Brent Davis came back there and said, "You know exactly what to say. Are you doing okay?" And I mean I was doing okay. I was kind of high. I couldn't even stand up. I even had somebody go get me some more pills. I'm not going to say from who, but from somebody out in the you know court so I could take some more Valium because I couldn't even, I couldn't even stand what I was doing. I loved Jessie with all my heart. And, uh, for them to pick him for me to testify against was just totally wrong.

Nancy Pemberton: Let me, let me back up because we sort of got ahead of ourselves. So you -- and you, you said that you lied on the stand. We'll come back to that a bit later, okay? I want to go back after, uh -- to a couple of things. One, one is that you said you were high that day. During the month of May when you are participating in these efforts to set up Damien and, uh, uh, meeting with them and being interviewed, are you on any medication at that time?

Victoria Hutcheson: I was on Prozac, uh, Valium, uh, some pain pills. Whatever pain pills we could get a hold of from Melissa and, uh, I can't remember the other one.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, what was it, what was it for?

Victoria Hutcheson: Trazodone.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: To sleep at night.

Nancy Pemberton: And were any of those medications prescribed?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, three of them.

Nancy Pemberton: Which ones?

Victoria Hutcheson: The -- all of them but the pain pills.

Nancy Pemberton: And the pain pills you got you said from Melissa. And who is Melissa?

Victoria Hutcheson: Melissa Byers.

Nancy Pemberton: This is Christopher Byers' mom?

Victoria Hutcheson: Christopher's mom.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, you had also said that the police had gotten your records. Uh, were these prescriptions from the East Arkansas Mental Health Center?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: And, uh, do you know whether they actually got your medical -- uh, your mental health records?

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't have any idea. Probably not.

Nancy Pemberton: Do you --did you have a, a therapist that you were seeing then?

Victoria Hutcheson: I saw [Judy Hicks] and then I have a psychiatrist also.

Nancy Pemberton: Do you know who the psychiatrist was?

Victoria Hutcheson: I can't remember his name.

Nancy Pemberton: Was it a male psychiatrist?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes.

Nancy Pemberton: Was he mostly monitoring the case to give you, to give you the prescription or did you also see him?

Victoria Hutcheson: He was just, he was just for opinions, yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, after -- you indicated that you were upset because you love Jessie and they were asking you to testify against him. And you'd also said that you -- I think you said earlier that you were -- when we were talking about the pictures that you didn't see Jessie's picture because you didn't know he was --

Victoria Hutcheson: I had, I had no idea.

Nancy Pemberton: So when Jessie gets arrested --

Victoria Hutcheson: He was at my house.

Nancy Pemberton: And what's going on? What are you thinking when they arrest Jessie?

Victoria Hutcheson: When they came and picked Jessie up I thought that, uh -- of course I was back in bed, but somebody knocked on the door and Jessie went to the door because he had stayed there the night before and, uh, because we so upset about the boys, okay? So he's there consoling us about the boys. Now had I tried and set him up do you think that this would be the person I would have consoling me [unintelligible]? If I thought that he murdered them? So, uh, they -- I thought Jessie just got a roofing job or big Jessie needed him at the shop. I didn't have no idea they arrested him. That night on TV they put Jessie's face on there and then Damien and Jason and my son went into a literal fit. I mean this is a boy he loves very much and we were just all in shock that Jessie was -- [I might now know] he was arrested, but I know what time that they come and got him and I know what time they arrested him. So I can tell you he went through the same thing I did at that police station.

Nancy Pemberton: What time did they arrest him?

Victoria Hutcheson: They got here at eight o'clock that morning.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. Uh, the morning after he spent the night at your house?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: Now there was some indication, I think, at the trial that he was there for yours and Aaron's protection. Was there something going on there that he was there protecting you? That you maybe had a prowler or something?

Victoria Hutcheson: Mark, Mark Byers was always, uh, -- he was like -- I don't know what his deal was, but he was always bothering us it seemed like. Maybe he knew something that I didn't know.

Nancy Pemberton: Is -- and did you ask Jessie to protect you?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, yeah, I asked Jessie to stay there with me. He had a gun in his hand. You know he had Jim's gun. He used his rifle that day, that night and stayed there with me.

Nancy Pemberton: Had he done -- had you asked him to do that in the past or at any other times?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, a lot of times he spent the night or you know anytime I've gotten scared or anything, Jessie has always -- he would stay there or he would you know come around and ask me if I was okay. That's what a friend is.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, were -- just so I got this correct [unintelligible).

Male Voice: That's all right.

Nancy Pemberton: [Laughs] Okay. After you saw that he was -- you saw on TV --

[Audio gap]

Nancy Pemberton: Just fixed and we've had a little restroom, cigarette, coffee break. Uh, and we're, we're back on and it's still June 24th and the same people are still in the room. Uh, and when the tape, when the last tape ended we were just talking about the night of the arrest and, uh, you were watching TV and you suddenly realized that they had actually arrested Jessie that morning.

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: So did you do anything in response to that? Did you call anybody or talk to anybody?

Victoria Hutcheson: I called Gary.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: Gitchell.

Nancy Pemberton: And what did you say to him?

Victoria Hutcheson: I said, "How in god's name did if he thought that boy murdered those three boys did you let me do all the things that I did with him in my house? Because I don't think he had anything to do with it and I don't understand what your reasoning is here."

Nancy Pemberton: And what was his response to you?

Victoria Hutcheson: It was none of my business. [Laughs]

Nancy Pemberton: And did you call anybody else?

Victoria Hutcheson: John Fogelman.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh-huh.

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh --

Nancy Pemberton: By that time had you met Fogelman? You just called --

Victoria Hutcheson: I just called the prosecuting attorney.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. Go ahead.

Victoria Hutcheson: I did know a little bit. I mean I wasn't totally stupid. I mean I knew that, uh, there was a prosecutor somewhere that, that had done this case so I called him and he told me basically the same thing; it's none of my business.

Nancy Pemberton: And did you call Don Bray?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, he had a stroke.

Nancy Pemberton: He had had the stroke by that time?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay, okay. Uh, so after they are arrested now, this is -- we are now in June and, and Jessie's trial doesn't happen until January of the following year, January 2000 -- oh excuse me, 1994. Uh, are you in -- do you continue to be in contact with the West Memphis Police Department?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, it seems like that they, uh, there were several times that, that they wanted to talk to Aaron.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: And they met him over it. One time they tried to -- they wanted to tape him without him knowing it.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: In a two-way mirror thing.

Nancy Pemberton: Yes.

Victoria Hutcheson: And, uh, they did that at East Arkansas Clinic; at the mental clinic. And Judy was there and Don Bray was there and, uh, they tried that, but, uh, Aaron, when he walked by there was the door that went into the two-way thing. He said, "I'm not doing this because I smell Gary Gitchell."

Nancy Pemberton: I smell him?

Victoria Hutcheson: Gary happened to wear the same cologne his dad wears, Lagerfeld.

Nancy Pemberton: Oh.

Victoria Hutcheson: And Aaron, Aaron smelled that and he said he knew he was there so he wasn't going to say anything.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. So you had just said before that you thought that you didn't call Bray because he had his stroke, but I think then you just said that Bray was there when they were doing this. So, uh --

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't know.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: It may have been after that.

Nancy Pemberton: The stroke may have been a little bit later then that?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, did they ever --?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, it had to have been because Mark Byers started bothering me and Don Bray was still okay then.

Nancy Pemberton: So can you tell me, uh, about Mark Byers bothering you?

Victoria Hutcheson: Well I could never prove it was Mark Byers, but, uh, after the boys were arrested and he found out that they had talked to Aaron, because we kept it quiet until Ron Lax's big mouth and he opened up that whole can of worms you know. And everybody found out they had talked to Aaron and then they found out about me and all that deal. Uh, but the papers started coming around, so Mark called and he wanted to, he wanted me to let Aaron go by himself with him to McDonald's. I said, "There is now way I'm letting, letting him go." And, uh, he said, "I really need to talk to him." I said, "You're not talking to my kid, Mark." And, uh, for some reason my kid was scared of Mark you know. And I knew that because I you know -- Aaron had said by then that, uh, Mark Byers was implicated. And, uh, so there was no way. And Mark started buying Aaron gifts and bringing them to the house and, uh, he even went as far as to bring a Christmas tree that he said was Chris' and bring it to our house so we could put it up.

Nancy Pemberton: So this is in December?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh. And then, uh, there would be times like I would be sitting there, and we lived with Jim then, I would be sitting there, me and Aaron and, uh, I could see someone. And it had to be a really tall, big person because they would -- we had thing around our back porch thing and he stood way above that. And I would look out and I would see it was Mark and I would call Marion and, uh, and Don Bray would come out. So it was like it was an automatic thing that if I called, they got Don. And, uh, then our, our back window, uh, screen was tore off and just a lot of different things were happening and it was just real scary. And I just knew it was Mark. I just had a feeling it was Mark. And Aaron wouldn't even go to Chris' funeral because of Mark. [Coughs]

Nancy Pemberton: The funerals presumably happened well before the arrests.

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: So that was early on, right?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: So he was showing signs of being unnerved by Mark early on?

Victoria Hutcheson: Early, yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, you when we, when we were first talking, uh, and I had asked you about how many times you went to the Drug Task Force and you were going, "Oh more than five, maybe 10-something." And you said that there were some that occurred after the, after the arrests. What were you -- how long after the arrests did you go to the Drug Task Force?

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't know exactly, but they were always to Aaron to talk to them. They were trying -- [Coughs] -- what they wanted was they wanted to see if they could get Aaron to testify. Well there was no way. There was absolutely no way that Aaron could testify.

Nancy Pemberton: They -- and why do you say that?

Victoria Hutcheson: Because they had, uh -- Aaron didn't know up from down. I mean Judy told me that he was so, uh, confused she didn't know if we could ever get anything [right] back to him. Because they had done, uh -- I've read on the Internet now about how the police will, uh, lead a child and do things with a child and you know it brings this and that out. [Coughs] Well they had taken Aaron and done so many different things to him and, and he didn't know -- he was trying to please them you know and he didn't know how. And so he would make up this part or say this part or -- so he didn't even know what was right and wrong.

Nancy Pemberton: So the ability to understand what was reality and what wasn't?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, he didn't even know.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. All right. Uh, and how about you? Are you continuing to have contact with, with, with Gitchell or Ridge --?

Victoria Hutcheson: No.

Nancy Pemberton: Between the time of the arrest --?

Victoria Hutcheson: Oh, you're talking about -- I thought you meant now. I'm like no. [Laughs]

Nancy Pemberton: Between the time of the arrest and the time that you testified?

Victoria Hutcheson: Just for Aaron. You know basically for Aaron.

Nancy Pemberton: So they're not inter -- continuing to interview you or --?

Victoria Hutcheson: No.

Nancy Pemberton: Get any more information?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, I did not know that they used Aaron's tape to get a confession from Jessie until I heard it on the radio.

Nancy Pemberton: And when did you hear that? Was that before or after the trial?

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't know. I remember hearing my son's voice [saying], "Nobody knows what happened but me."

Nancy Pemberton: Uh-huh.

Victoria Hutcheson: And I just freaked out. I mean I couldn't believe it.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh-huh.

Victoria Hutcheson: And how they could do that to Jessie and if Aaron had known that --

Nancy Pemberton: Uh-huh.

Victoria Hutcheson: Now I don't know if he could take it you know.

Nancy Pemberton: You, uh, uh, made a comment about you know that Don -- Ron Lax letting information out about you. Did anybody on any defense team try to contact you prior to Jessie's trial?

Victoria Hutcheson: Ron, that's it.

Nancy Pemberton: And did you talk to him at that point?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, kind of. Not very much.

Nancy Pemberton: Was there any attempt made by anybody else?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, not that I remember.

Nancy Pemberton: You said by this time you were living, uh, uh, with Jim Thompson?

Victoria Hutcheson: In some apartments in Marion.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay, so you've moved from the trailer park area? Because he was living in the trailer park as well at the time initially when you met him, right?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, are you running into Jessie's dad around town, that kind of stuff?

Victoria Hutcheson: [Stephanie ] [unintelligible], a lot of people.

Nancy Pemberton: And why did you mention Stephanie [unintelligible]?

Victoria Hutcheson: Because they all hated me. You know they all wanted -- they were like calling me names and you know they had no idea. No one had any idea and I just had to take it. I mean what else was I supposed to do? Go tell the truth now?

Nancy Pemberton: When you, uh -- when Ridge said that, that he would take away your son, uh, or could take away your son if you didn't cooperate, how do you -- did you have a way that you thought that he was going to be able to do that? Did you understand what vehicle he might use, whether you know it was through Child Protective Services or you know how that might happen?

Victoria Hutcheson: All I can just -- I don't know. I just -- all I could see was just my losing my kid. You know I'm -- Scott, when all this started happening -- I have an older son named Scott -- when all this started happening I sent him to his dad. I just lost him you know so I could imagine losing Aaron, too, and I wasn't going to let it happen.

Nancy Pemberton: Did you send Scott to see his -- to stay with his dad because --?

Victoria Hutcheson: Because of all the stuff [unintelligible].

Nancy Pemberton: But you didn't -- but they needed Aaron around so you kept him, is that why?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah. I don't know. I don't know whether it was that or Scott was just -- he was -- I don't remember why I did it. But Scott was upset. Basically because no one could handle Aaron but me. Aaron has ADD and ADHD and he's, he's really hard -- he was hard to handle. And, uh, plus he wouldn't have left me number one. But now Scott you know he was more of a -- he could have went to his dad's and stayed and been okay. And, uh, I don't know; I don't know why I did that.

Nancy Pemberton: How much older is Scott than --?

Victoria Hutcheson: Two years.

Nancy Pemberton: Than Aaron? He's two years older.

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: So Aaron was what, about eight at the time and Scott was 10?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh, he was eight.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, let's -- I'm just trying to -- before I get back to the trial I just want to make sure that I've covered what I want to cover in between there. Was there any effort -- did you have any -- [unintelligible] you're talking to Git -- you know you're taking Aaron to meet with Gitchell or with Ridge, is that right? Uh, is there any effort to make sure that you are still onboard? I mean are they, are they at all expressing any concern that you might be, as we say in the business, going sideways. You know that you might not be on their, their program anymore? Uh, are there continued implications that you might lose Jess -- uh, lose Aaron or any of that kind of thing going on during that sort of six month period, seven month period?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, they didn't say anything. It was just like, uh, uh, "You know you're going to testify at Jessie's trial." And I was like, "Why Jessie's? Why does it have to be Jessie's?" And --

Nancy Pemberton: What did they say to that?

Victoria Hutcheson: Nothing. They never, I mean they never did answer really anything I had to say.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: Or any -- they just, uh, they just basically, uh -- I don't know how you can say it. It was like, uh, I don't know how you feel. It's just like, uh, you have to do -- you've got to do it. You don't have any choice. I mean I sat there and watched these detectives and they were -- they made those three boys guilty of murders they did not commit. Do you think for one minute I didn't think they could make me just as guilty? Come on, I was a little bit smarter than that. I could see me sitting right beside them being the link to the other ones. I kept my mouth shut and did whatever they wanted me to do and I was scared. I was scared to death. And, uh, I'm still scared. I'm not going to lie, I'm scared.

Nancy Pemberton: At the trial, uh -- well leading up to the trial, is there anybody who is talking to you and preparing you? You know saying this, this is the area that we want you to cover? These are the topics we want you to say? These are the questions we're going to ask you? Any of that kind of thing?

Victoria Hutcheson: Not till I got there.

Nancy Pemberton: All right. And you got there the day that you were going to testify?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: You didn't show up before?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, Gary said I couldn't come. I couldn't come before.

Nancy Pemberton: Did -- were you served with a subpoena or did they just drive up and pick you up?

Victoria Hutcheson: I was served with a subpoena.

Nancy Pemberton: And who served you with a subpoena?

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't even remember, but Aaron and I both were served.

Nancy Pemberton: And, uh, did you both go up there?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, just me.

Nancy Pemberton: How did you find out that Aaron -- it wasn't necessary for Aaron to go?

Victoria Hutcheson: I think I called.

Nancy Pemberton: And was this calling like Fogelman or Davis?

Victoria Hutcheson: [unintelligible] somebody. I called Don maybe or -- I don't know. I can't remember all of that. And the trials are really, uh, hazy for me because I was so drugged up.

Nancy Pemberton: Now were you drugged up just the day of the trial or were you drugged up --?

Victoria Hutcheson: All the time. All the time.

Nancy Pemberton: The day --

Victoria Hutcheson: Previously, after, yeah all of it.

Nancy Pemberton: And were you drugged up specifically because of the stress of having to testify?

Victoria Hutcheson: I was drugged up because I put Jessie Misskelley in prison.

Nancy Pemberton: After Jessie is arrested, do you at that point in June or July start increasing your use of drugs and alcohol?

Victoria Hutcheson: Very much so.

Nancy Pemberton: Prior to Jessie being arrested, you mentioned the drugs that you were taking; the three prescription drugs and the, and the nonprescription pain, pain medication. Were you also drinking?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: And what were you drinking and how much?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, I worked part-time at Ramada Inn as a bartender, so who knows how much I drank. Uh, as much as I wanted. I should say that when I left I felt pretty good every night.

Nancy Pemberton: This is after you lost your job at the truck stop?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: How long after you lost your job did you get the job at the Ramada Inn do you think?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, after I did all that stuff for the cops I started working at Ramada Inn.

Nancy Pemberton: So this is about the time of the arrest or shortly after that?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. And so you're drinking pretty regularly at that time? Were you drinking regularly before you went to work at the Ramada?

Victoria Hutcheson: Not too much. I would probably -- no because I couldn't afford it really. You know unless somebody brought it over maybe. Uh, I didn't drink a lot. And I'm not a drinker so for me to drink, I'm like -- and I don't take pain pills. So for me to do that is like I'm just totally beside myself.

Nancy Pemberton: So after Jessie's arrest you increase your intake of the alcohol because you get the job at the Ramada? Or you now have the opportunity to drink more because you're at the Ramada?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: And you're also -- were you increasing your use of the nonprescription pain medication?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: Which you were continuing to get from Melissa Byers?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, well I had another friend that worked at Ramada that also could get it. And she would get, uh, downers, too.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh-huh.

Victoria Hutcheson: So I would take those, too. Whatever, it didn't matter. And I didn't even have to know the name of it, I would just take it because it didn't matter what it was. [Coughs]

Nancy Pemberton: Were you continuing -- at the same time continuing to go to the mental health center?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: And seeing -- continued to --?

Victoria Hutcheson: It would always be right when I saw Judy you know.

Nancy Pemberton: Sober you mean by right?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, was she aware that you were doing the non-prescription medication?

Victoria Hutcheson: No. I mean Aaron had medication. I would take it. I would take anything. It didn't matter.

Nancy Pemberton: And that continues throughout up until the trial?

Victoria Hutcheson: That continues until, uh, until I became a methamphetamine addict.

Nancy Pemberton: And when was that?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, about when I got out of prison -- no it was before I went to prison. I guess in '94, '95. I became a -- so I, I did an eight-ball of meth a day because I could not -- I just couldn't take the, the, uh, the burden I had in me.

Nancy Pemberton: So you just switched from the downers to the uppers?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: Was there a, a conscious decision to, to switch the, uh, your self medication? I mean did you decide to stop doing downers for some reason and start doing the meth?

Victoria Hutcheson: I just quit doing downers because they would cost, because they, uh, cost a lot of money and I was working at Regina's in a strip bar and started doing the uppers because I needed it to stay awake and to lose weight and to look good and so that's why I did that.

Nancy Pemberton: Gotcha.

Victoria Hutcheson: And so, uh, then I was making enough money I could afford meth.

Nancy Pemberton: Right.

Victoria Hutcheson: And, uh, just recently did I get off of meth.

Nancy Pemberton: Congratulations.

Victoria Hutcheson: Thank you.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, I want to talk to you about the drugs you took on the day you testified. Do you remember what you -- you took your Prozac?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, what else did you take?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, I took my Prozac. As a matter of fact, I took four Prozac that day. And I take 40 milligrams at a time, so --

Nancy Pemberton: So you did 120 milligrams of Prozac?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, at least.

Nancy Pemberton: Did you testify in the morning or the afternoon, do you remember?

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't have any idea.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't know what day I testified. I don't remember testifying. I don't remember nothing except for Dan Stidham asking me questions and me trying to get to him and tell him [Crying] [unintelligible] that's not true. And, uh--

Nancy Pemberton: Take a deep breath.

Victoria Hutcheson: And I didn't know what to do. I didn't know who to talk to or could not get anybody to listen. And the only thing I remember is, uh, [unintelligible] me because I sat by Dana and, uh, trying to get Dan to listen.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: And that's it.

Nancy Pemberton: And so, again, so you said you took four Prozac that day. What else did you take?

Victoria Hutcheson: About 10 Valium.

Nancy Pemberton: Now did you take those all at once or did you take them over a course of time?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, that's before I even got there. That's what I took.

Nancy Pemberton: But did you grab 10 Valium and --?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: Or did you --?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes I did.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: I grabbed 10 Valium and put those in my hand and took those. And then I took four pain pills, uh, and I couldn't take Trazodone because I would have been knocked out. [Coughs] There was something else I took, uh, that I had a prescription for, but I can't remember what it was. It was something new. And then when I got there, uh, I was so -- I was still a nervous wreck and I took like three more Valium and I was out. So I sent somebody out to get me some more Valium in the courtroom. And you know I won't say who that was or who that was that gave it to me, but, uh, I did take more. And then, uh, I mean the Prozac is not going to do you anymore good, so I just kept taking Valium and pain pills and, uh, I was a wreck.

Nancy Pemberton: I, I don't mean to try and get anybody else in trouble, but are you not -- you don't want to say who this person is because you're concerned about their liability for this?

Victoria Hutcheson: I'm just concerned about -- I just wouldn't do it because I love this person and I would never, I would never tell anything on this person.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. I just want you to know that at some point, you may get pressed on this point.

Victoria Hutcheson: I still wouldn't tell.

Nancy Pemberton: Is there, uh -- hold on. I think that you mentioned in a previous interview of getting something from, from --

Victoria Hutcheson: Melissa.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. What did you get from Melissa?

Victoria Hutcheson: Pain pills.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. Do you know what kind of pain pills?

Victoria Hutcheson: Melissa was addicted to something she [unintelligible] on. When she told -- her and Mark told me they were diabetic and I believed them. So, uh, then I found out. Then Dana told me the truth that they were really addicted to something, Dilaudid. I knew it rhymed with the seizure medicine I take.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh-huh.

Victoria Hutcheson: So--

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: She could get -- her and Mark got all kinds of stuff.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, okay. Was there something with morphine? Do you remember morphine with Melissa?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, she [unintelligible] morphine.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: She takes -- she took a lot of stuff. I don't even know what all she took.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: I know we were all beside ourselves everyday during the trials.

Nancy Pemberton: So you testified and then, uh -- how did you get to the -- how did you get up to the courthouse?

Victoria Hutcheson: Jim.

Nancy Pemberton: He drove you up? And, uh, this is your boyfriend? So the police didn't take you up there?

Victoria Hutcheson: Nuh-uh.

Nancy Pemberton: Did he then stay with you?

Victoria Hutcheson: He sat out inside the courtroom.

Nancy Pemberton: Was -- prior to the trial, did any of the police or prosecution make any suggestions to you about whether or not you should speak to the defense if you were contacted? Were you advised what to do if the police -- if you were contacted by the defense?

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't remember. I remember Don Bray telling me that, uh -- because I called him about Ron Lax and he told me not -- just don't talk to him.

Nancy Pemberton: And did Ron Lax come knock on your door or did he call and make an appointment?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, he just come knocked on the door.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. And so then you called Don after that?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: And -- but you had already told Ron --?

Victoria Hutcheson: I just had a little talk with him. I didn't tell him too much. I just told him that he didn't know what he was talking about and just you know, just little stuff I think. And then the next time I think [Glory] came around and I really liked her.

Nancy Pemberton: Did you talk to Glory?

Victoria Hutcheson: [unintelligible]. And then when we went over to her, their office because Glory wanted to talk to me and, uh, at this point I was just like I didn't even know what to do.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. Let me -- is this before the trial or after the trial?

Victoria Hutcheson: I think it was before, I'm not sure. But, uh, I think it was before. And Glory took Aaron to, uh, that big place in Memphis, Mud Island or whatever.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh-huh.

Victoria Hutcheson: So she took him there and the, uh, me and Glory talked after they got back. And, uh, I know it was nighttime.

Nancy Pemberton: But you think that was before the trial, not after?

Victoria Hutcheson: I think so.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: I talked to her a few times on the phone.

Nancy Pemberton: Was there only one time though that you went to, to their office in Memphis?

Victoria Hutcheson: Twice.

Nancy Pemberton: And when was the second time?

Victoria Hutcheson: Second time was, uh, Ron and Dan Stidham wanted to talk to me, both of them.

Nancy Pemberton: Was that before or after the trial?

Victoria Hutcheson: After.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, after you testified in Jessie's trial, were you asked to testify in Damien and Jason's trial?

Victoria Hutcheson: No. I got, I got subpoenaed, but, uh--

Nancy Pemberton: By whom? I mean by the prosecution or by the defense?

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't know who. They sent it -- I guess that their defense sent it.

Nancy Pemberton: Who served you the subpoena?

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't know. [Laughter] I'm telling you I was just -- I don't know.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: There was a whole list of names, I know that. Anyway, uh, Aaron and I were staying -- we went to stay at a motel.

Nancy Pemberton: Where was that?

Victoria Hutcheson: The prosecution put us in a motel.

Nancy Pemberton: And where did they put you?

Victoria Hutcheson: In Memphis. I don't remember where. I can't remember. I know a side-of-the-road place, but I don't remember.

Nancy Pemberton: But across the state line?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah. It was in Memphis.

Nancy Pemberton: And that was after you received the subpoena? Dh, you need to say yes or no.

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes.

[Laughter]

Nancy Pemberton: Okay, thank you. Uh, how did that come about?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, I think Mike or one of the cops called and said that we were going to be, uh, having the -- a go right before the trial started and that Aaron's best interests would be for us to go ahead and stay at the motel.

Nancy Pemberton: And this is Mike [Allen]?

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't know. I can't remember. It might have been one of the cops and, uh--

Nancy Pemberton: But when you say Mike, that's who you mean, is Mike Allen?

Victoria Hutcheson: Maybe.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh-huh. Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: And, uh --

Nancy Pemberton: It was a West Memphis police --?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes, a West Memphis cop. And, uh, so he said, "You won't have to worry about anything. Everything would be taken care of."

Nancy Pemberton: Meaning financially?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: And how long before --?

Victoria Hutcheson: It was right before the trials.

Nancy Pemberton: Had Aaron received a subpoena as well as you?

Victoria Hutcheson: We both did.

Nancy Pemberton: So you both received a subpoena and then you get a phone call from a police officer who says, "Let's go to the -- can I take you to a motel?"

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, basically. Well not him taking me, but I took me.

Nancy Pemberton: But what we think would be in your best interest.

Victoria Hutcheson: "It was in the best interest of Aaron if you go stay at this motel."

Nancy Pemberton: How long did you stay at the motel?

Victoria Hutcheson: About -- I guess it was during -- I don't remember. Maybe it was like -- it was longer than a week.

Nancy Pemberton: And what did you do when you were in Memphis?

Victoria Hutcheson: Nothing. I quit my job at Ramada and everything because I couldn't go back and forth.

Nancy Pemberton: So because of this you quit your job?

Victoria Hutcheson: At Ramada, uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: And, uh, you don't remember the name of the place? Do you have any idea in Memphis where it was?

Victoria Hutcheson: I just remember it wasn't very far off the -- I don't know, it [could have been across town.] I don't know. I was just really -- and I remember being -- and then I'd just lay there and get high and watch TV. That's all I did.

Nancy Pemberton: And what did Aaron do?

Victoria Hutcheson: He just played.

Nancy Pemberton: Now was this during the school year?

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't know. When was their trials?

Nancy Pemberton: So I --

Victoria Hutcheson: Aaron did not go, Aaron did not go to, uh -- as a matter of fact, Marion I mean, uh, Marion school got Aaron a waiver of a lot of his school year that year because of the trials and stuff.

Nancy Pemberton: So he didn't have to go to school?

Victoria Hutcheson: He didn't have to go and they still passed him.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. So, uh, uh, if this had been during the school year you just kept him out that week?

Victoria Hutcheson: I kept him out.

Nancy Pemberton: And, uh, did Aaron --?

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't even remember how long we were gone.

Nancy Pemberton: Did anyone come and visit you?

Victoria Hutcheson: No. No one knew we were there.

Nancy Pemberton: Were you still involved with Jim at that point?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: Did he know that you were there? What did you tell him about where you were going?

Victoria Hutcheson: I didn't tell him anything. I was scared.

Nancy Pemberton: So you just disappeared?

Victoria Hutcheson: I just disappeared.

Nancy Pemberton: Did you tell him anything when you got back?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: What did you tell him when you got back?

Victoria Hutcheson: I told him that we had to go for the, for the prosecution. That they told us to leave. And he thought I had just gotten mad at him and left. I was really high. You know just, just high all the time. Haven't you ever been around anybody that was just high all the time?

Nancy Pemberton: I have, indeed.

Victoria Hutcheson: Okay. And they just do stupid stuff.

Nancy Pemberton: Right.

Victoria Hutcheson: They just do spur-of-the-moment things and you don't know whether -- you know I wasn't like a real reliable person.

Nancy Pemberton: So he wasn't worried about you because he --?

Victoria Hutcheson: Probably not. I mean he was like, "Well she just got mad. You know she'll be back," or "Good riddens," probably is what he said.

Nancy Pemberton: Did you -- do you remember whether you called the Ramada Inn and said, "I'm quitting," or did you not just show up?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, actually I went -- uh, my boss was Scott. His name was Scott. I called him and told him that I was going to have to quit because of, uh, the trials and stuff that were coming up. And I couldn't tell him exactly why, but I had to quit. And he said, "Okay." He said, "You can come back if you want to."

Nancy Pemberton: Did you go back?

Victoria Hutcheson: Nuh-uh.

Nancy Pemberton: No.

Victoria Hutcheson: I came home. After the trials I came home to Ark -- to here.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, yeah, I want to just make sure that I've covered everything so I'm just going to put this on standby for a second then I'll be right back, okay? Okay. I just want to follow-up with a couple of other things. Uh, one of the things in talking about all of the, the -- oh, I'm sorry. We're back on and it's 6:25 and it's still June 24th and the same people are in the room except that Jeff Rosenzweig has stepped out to take a phone call I think. Uh, whatever. I'm not following what he's doing. Uh, but I wanted to ask you because we had talked about all of the drugs that you had been taking. Uh, do you know whether the police were aware of the amount of drugs and alcohol -- or the drugs, both prescription and non-prescription, that you were taking?

Victoria Hutcheson: I'm pretty sure, because I took it in front of them most of the time.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. What do say -- what do you mean when you say you took it in front of them?

Victoria Hutcheson: Well like I was down in the room with Ridge for 12 hours you know. I told him I had to, uh, take my medicine.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. And did he understand what medicine you were taking at the time? Did you tell him it was Prozac and Valium?

Victoria Hutcheson: I had to, uh, write it down at one point.

Nancy Pemberton: For him?

Victoria Hutcheson: Gary Gitchell.

Nancy Pemberton: How about the non-prescription medication?

Victoria Hutcheson: I just always told him that I had migraines and that I, that I've got pain medicine.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. But you -- but they were aware that you were taking --?

Victoria Hutcheson: They were aware. They were very aware. And Judy Hicks, uh, also told Gary Gitchell when they visited the East Arkansas Clinic that, uh, what kind of mental state -- I have bipolar disorder and, uh, she informed them of that. And I was on medication for it. I've also been diagnosed with paranoid schizophrenia. And, uh, after that I had post-traumatic stress syndrome. You know so I'm pretty sure that they knew my mental condition. They didn't care.

Nancy Pemberton: And when we talk about they, who are we talking about?

Victoria Hutcheson: West Memphis Police Department.

Nancy Pemberton: Do you know whether either, uh, John Fogelman or Brent Davis were aware of any of that?

Victoria Hutcheson: Well Brent Davis, when he was back there asked me did I need any more medicine.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, so he knew that you were taking something that day?

Victoria Hutcheson: He knew I was -- yeah. [Laughs]

Nancy Pemberton: And why do you laugh and say that?

Victoria Hutcheson: Because everyone knew I was taking something that day.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: If you knew me at all, you knew I was on something.

Nancy Pemberton: Did he know you enough to know that?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh, no, but he probably could tell because he was a prosecuting attorney. And I'm sure he's seen someone high.

Nancy Pemberton: And what did you -- you said that he asked whether you needed something more?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah. "Are, are you okay? Are you going to be all right? Do you think you need some more medicine?" Yeah, they knew.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh --

Victoria Hutcheson: We were all on meth. Dana and Todd, Mark and Melissa. Have you not seen the interview with Pam? You know on Paradise Lost I?

Nancy Pemberton: Uh-huh.

Victoria Hutcheson: She has Stevie's little hat thing on.

Nancy Pemberton: Right.

Victoria Hutcheson: I mean we're standing right there beside her. We were all acting like that.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: It was just how we acted.

Nancy Pemberton: Was there anyone other than Brent Davis that knew that that day?

Victoria Hutcheson: Knew what? That I'm on pills?

Nancy Pemberton: That you were high that day, do you think? From the police, either the police or Fogelman or the judge or anything.

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't know.

Nancy Pemberton: You were kept back in the judge's chambers?

Victoria Hutcheson: Back in a room behind the deal.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: I could not go into the -- they removed me from the courtroom where I was with Dana.

Nancy Pemberton: And, uh -- okay, you had been sitting with Dana and then they took you out?

Victoria Hutcheson: They said that that was not good.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: I could not sit with Dana; that that showed partiality.

Nancy Pemberton: How -- oh so who told you not to sit with Dana?

Victoria Hutcheson: Gary.

Nancy Pemberton: So he --

Victoria Hutcheson: [Mia] [Moon] took me back in the back. And then said I could not come back in after I testified either.

Nancy Pemberton: And was there -- when you got the drugs from Melissa, was there anybody else who saw you get the drugs from Melissa?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, you don't make drug deals in front of people.

Nancy Pemberton: Yeah. And how about the drugs that, that you said you got from somebody outside in the -- did somebody get those for you if you were in the room?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: Was it one of the police?

Victoria Hutcheson: It could have been. [Laughs] I mean, uh, I'm not -- somebody brought them to Mia.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay, this is actually a pretty important thing for us. Is it -- was it one of the police officers or one of the prosecutors or one of the court officials that got you the drugs from the person in the audience?

Victoria Hutcheson: It might have been Bryn Ridge that brought them to me. Either Bryn or -- I was really high.

Nancy Pemberton: Right.

Victoria Hutcheson: It could have Bryn or one of the, uh, other people. One of the other court people. Anyway, anyway they said she needed her medicine and, and, uh, someone [unintelligible], "Could you please go get it?" So....

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. So some -- you told somebody that you needed it and you're --

Victoria Hutcheson: No. Uh, yeah I told Brent I needed some more medicine.

Nancy Pemberton: You told Bryn that you needed more medicine. And either he went out and got it -- Brent or Bryn?

Victoria Hutcheson: Brent Davis.

Nancy Pemberton: Oh Brent, okay. You told Brent Davis that you needed your medicine.

Victoria Hutcheson: I needed more medicine, yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: And Brent sent somebody out to get it?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah. Brent said, "Well is there someone that can go get it for you? So we can get someone -- we can get someone to get it for you," I think is what he said. Because I couldn't go back out there.

Nancy Pemberton: So he was aware that you were taking medications?

Victoria Hutcheson: Oh yeah. Because when I had been sitting by Dana they took a picture of me and Dana and it was actually on the front page of the newspaper.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh-huh.

Victoria Hutcheson: And that made them upset. They did not want me in contact with either side you know.

Nancy Pemberton: But that picture appeared after you testified?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: All right.

Victoria Hutcheson: But he didn't like that.

Nancy Pemberton: Brent Davis?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, uh, Gary.

Nancy Pemberton: And how did he tell you that?

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't know, but I remember he told someone and they told me. It could have been Don. I don't know.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, when you called the police after Jessie was arrested and you said you called Gary Gitchell.

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: And at that point, uh, could you tell me again what you said to him?

Victoria Hutcheson: I said, "How, how in god's name can that boy be guilty? Or how could you let that boy stay here with my son thinking my son actually seen this murder and is involved in all this case? And you knew that he was staying there at my house. How could you possibly let him stay here?" And, "What kind of thinking were you doing?" And, uh -- "Because there's no way that he could have been guilty. Because what reasoning is that?"

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. So at the time that you called him were you saying that you didn't think that he was guilty or did you say that --?

Victoria Hutcheson: I didn't think Jessie -- no, I've never said Jessie was guilty on my own.

Nancy Pemberton: And at that point, did you think he was, he was guilty?

Victoria Hutcheson: No. The reason Jessie says Michael Moore more than -- if you'll notice in all of his stuff he says Michael Moore more. More than he does any of the others because that was Aaron's best friend. That's the one he seen.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh-huh.

Victoria Hutcheson: Okay? Because he's been around Aaron and he's seen Michael, so he knows Michael. So in his stuff when he says, "Michael Moore," only because he knows who Michael is.

Nancy Pemberton: Were you shown, uh, Jessie's confession?

Victoria Hutcheson: No.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: No, they never showed me Jessie's confession. Nuh-uh. They told me that Jessie flunked the polygraph test. They told me Damien threw up five times during his polygraph. [Duram] told me that. Uh --

Nancy Pemberton: Who told you that Jessie had failed his polygraph?

Victoria Hutcheson: John. Uh, and I just remember that, uh, there wasn't anything on poor little Jason. Nothing.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, after Ridge got you to tell this, uh, story about the esbat, did you say to any of the police officers or, uh, Don Bray or anyone that that was not true?

Victoria Hutcheson: No. No, I was too scared. I was scared to breath wrong, okay? Once he told me that I could be the link, that's all it took. I shut my mouth and had nothing else to say about nothing. I wouldn't have cared what they did because I, I sat there and watched them do all that to Damien and Jason and Jessie. No way. Whatever, okay. So, uh, if he didn't -- if you don't think that they can do something like that, then you weren't in my shoes. You know no one was. And, uh, just like Jessie never would have confessed to killing three little innocent boys. Well we weren't in his shoes that day. You don't know what that's like. Lied to you. I know what it's like to be in a room with Bryn Ridge and Gary Gitchell and it's a little bit scary. And, uh, you say what you've got to say because they, you know they scare you to death.

Nancy Pemberton: But -- okay. Uh, when you met with Ridge and he told you that he wanted you to say something about --

Victoria Hutcheson: It was just him --

Nancy Pemberton: [Yeah.]

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, did he come up with the word esbat? Where did the word esbat come from?

Victoria Hutcheson: He said esbat.

Nancy Pemberton: Did you see that word in any of those, uh, witchcraft books that you had gotten from the library?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, I looked it up in the dictionary. That's what I did.

Nancy Pemberton: And you looked it up after --

Victoria Hutcheson: After I talked to Ridge, yeah. Because I didn't have the actual meaning of the word, what it meant. So, uh -- because it was like, "Well wasn't that an esbat?" And I was like, "Yeah, an esbat." And then I went home and I looked it up and I seen what an esbat was. Well okay, that's what it was. And, uh, then I'm on the stand telling Brent Davis what it is. And I gave the actual meaning out of the dictionary.

Nancy Pemberton: I want to go back and, uh, to the, the conversation that you had with Damien in the, in your trailer, okay? And make sure that I've got the order of what was said there and who said what to who and when.

Victoria Hutcheson: Okay.

Nancy Pemberton: You come in and, uh, you've got the books arrayed.

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: And you sit him down next to the, uh, microphone, wherever the microphone is.

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: And you begin to talk. And who brings up the boys being killed first? Is that you that brings it up?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, he does. He said, uh -- I asked him why he was so nervous because he was smoking one cigarette right after the other. Just boom, boom, boom. And I said, "Why are you so nervous?" And he said, "Well you would be nervous, too, if you got -- if they thought you killed three little kids."

Nancy Pemberton: Did he explain why it was that that's what he's talking about at that point?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, he just told me. That's what he said.

Nancy Pemberton: Had you asked him any questions about his reputation or anything before that?

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't remember if it was before or after. I asked him about his drinking blood.

Nancy Pemberton: And what did he say?

Victoria Hutcheson: He said, "Well that's just to keep them away from me." He just wanted to be weird you know. And, uh, never drank blood. That he has that reputation, he just doesn't deny it you know. He was just not the person I thought. I thought he was like a Jeffrey Dahmer person. [Laughs] He wasn't at all. And so, uh -- but I don't remember if it was before or after, exactly how, but that's, that's what he said you know.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh-huh.

Victoria Hutcheson: Because obviously they had been harassing him about the kids already or something. You know because he was a physical wreck. Just shaking and just smoking one cigarette after another. And I was like, "Why are you so nervous?" And I think that's why he left my house. Well besides me being old and all that, but you know I think he just left. He thought, "Well why is she doing this?" you know. It probably hit him. He's pretty smart. He's a real intelligent guy. And that comes across to you when you meet him. And, uh, he was like -- he was gone. But, uh, yeah, that's what he said. But I asked him, I said, "Well did you, did you kill them?" He said, "No." No like I was crazy.

Nancy Pemberton: And that statement could be heard on the audio tapes?

Victoria Hutcheson: On tapes. That could be heard. Yeah, that could have been heard real good, but, uh, they said it didn't sound like Damien. "That doesn't sound like Damien." I said, "Well it is."

Nancy Pemberton: So the -- so you got the impression that the police were suggesting to you that you didn't actually have Damien --

Victoria Hutcheson: I, yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: In the house? That you had somebody else there?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, yeah. But that was kind like, uh, I didn't -- I should have -- I messed that up. That wasn't Damien, whatever. "Are you sure that's Damien?" I said, "Well yeah, that's Damien. Damien and Jessie and me and Christy. And, uh, that's Grease on the TV and.... " But yeah, it was Damien on there, but he just didn't say what they wanted to hear. So, uh, they conveniently made it inaudible. The same way the blood come up missing, the whole ordeal you know.

Nancy Pemberton: I'm sorry the same way that?

Victoria Hutcheson: The blood at Bojangles. You know the same way all that stuff happened.

Nancy Pemberton: You mean that they didn't follow-up on --?

Victoria Hutcheson: They just [lose stuff] --

Nancy Pemberton: Right.

Victoria Hutcheson: Conveniently. When, uh, HBO came to my house to talk to me about, uh, Paradise I and they were -- Paradise Lost and we were sitting at our kitchen table and they mentioned to me about Mark giving them a knife, and they had given it to Gitchell, you know that I told Gitchell about that and that he needed to send it off. He hadn't even sent it off yet to -- for anything. And I was like, I said, "Aren't you going to do anything about that?" I mean he still had it in his desk.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh-huh. You know at one point there was something about Damien losing, uh --

Victoria Hutcheson: An earring --

Nancy Pemberton: Earring at your house. Do you remember that?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah. It could have been Damien's, it could have been Jessie's, it could have been anybody's.

Nancy Pemberton: Did the police ever pick that up from you?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh. They got it.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: I don't know what they did with it.

Nancy Pemberton: Do you remember who picked it up?

Victoria Hutcheson: No. Probably Ridge.

Nancy Pemberton: The prosecutor?

Victoria Hutcheson: Ridge.

Nancy Pemberton: Oh, Bryn Ridge. Oh, okay.

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: I'm sorry; I thought you said Brent.

Victoria Hutcheson: No.

Nancy Pemberton: There's too many people. Okay. So that was picked up from you?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, that was at my house, but it could have been anybody's. I don't know whose it was.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. And I meant to follow-up with this. When you're -- before Damien and, and, uh, Jason's trial, when Gary Gitchell or whoever it is -- you're not sure whether it was Mike or Gary -- somebody called you up and said that they thought it would be in Aaron's best interest for you not to be around.

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: What did you understand that to mean?

Victoria Hutcheson: I thought that, uh, that maybe they didn't want Aaron to be bothered with the, uh, testifying or something. That maybe they were going to badger him. I didn't, I didn't want Aaron to testify, ever.

Nancy Pemberton: Did they ask you about that? Did they ask your permission to have Aaron testify at either of the places? Did they ever indicate that they wanted him to testify?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: When was that?

Victoria Hutcheson: That was before both trials. Right there before -- they were going to take Aaron -- they -- you know at the East Arkansas Mental Health when they were going to take him?

Nancy Pemberton: Yes.

Victoria Hutcheson: It was then that they asked me could they use Aaron. And I said, "I'm not sure whether you can or not." And, uh, I said, "I really think you need to go through Judy to do this. I don't want it to damage him." Uh, I said that, "I can tell you this right now that the first thing he's going to say is, 'Mark Byers did it.'" Because that's all he ever said. That's all he ever says to me. Even now that's all he ever says, "Mark Byers, Mark Byers." And, uh, so [they did their tape and] [unintelligible] and then, uh, Gary tried to talk to Aaron and he won't talk to Gary at all. [Coughs] And it just didn't work out.

Nancy Pemberton: Aaron wouldn't talk to Gary?

Victoria Hutcheson: No, he will never talk to Gary.

Nancy Pemberton: And he stopped talking to him before the trial?

Victoria Hutcheson: Uh-huh.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh, after the trials, have you had contact with any of the police officers or prosecutor?

Victoria Hutcheson: No. After the, after [unintelligible]?

Nancy Pemberton: After [here].

Victoria Hutcheson: Nuh-uh.

Nancy Pemberton: How did you know that it was time to leave Memphis and go back to Marion when you stayed there during the --?

Victoria Hutcheson: I think that I had like a, uh --

Nancy Pemberton: Damien and Jason's trial.

Victoria Hutcheson: My time was up on the motel. I had done you know -- it was all I could do. It was time to go home.

Nancy Pemberton: They didn't -- you didn't get a call saying, "Okay, it's time to come home."?

Victoria Hutcheson: No.

Nancy Pemberton: Or you can do that?

Victoria Hutcheson: Nuh-uh.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. And you haven't had any more contact with them?

Victoria Hutcheson: No. The only person that has called me and the last, uh, time was Melissa called me and, uh, that was two days before she died, wanting to talk to Aaron. And that's the last time I talked to anyone.

Nancy Pemberton: How about, how about Dana? You know you guys were good friends. When did you stop talking to her?

Victoria Hutcheson: I'm --

Nancy Pemberton: Or did you stop talking to her?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah, Dana and I quit talking because Aaron reminds her of Michael and she can't, uh -- I mean she just can't. She asked me to forgive her and some time before I left Marion she asked me to just forgive her if, uh, she didn't come around or, or having anything to do with Aaron because it just hurt her too bad. And that hurts, but you know I can't blame her.

Nancy Pemberton: So this was sometime after the trial?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yeah.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh-huh. When you were in Memphis, uh, during that trial, was anybody -- was Dana calling you to let you know what was going on or anything like that?

Victoria Hutcheson: Nuh-huh. I watched TV.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. So you were sort of following the trial through the TV?

Victoria Hutcheson: Well Dana taped it all for me.

Nancy Pemberton: Uh-huh.

Victoria Hutcheson: So I had tapes of it, too. So I just always taped all my stuff over hers anyway.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay, okay. I think -- you, at the outset I had mentioned to you or I had asked you whether you understood that we represent -- that Theresa represents Damien Echols and that Jeff and I are working on behalf of Jessie Misskelley. I just want to ask you whether prior to getting on this tape or during the time that we've, uh, put the tape on hold while you, you were getting refreshments and ingesting and egesting, shall we say, uh, have we made you any promises, uh, about benefits that we might give you for making this, uh -- for telling -- for giving us this tape or for saying things?

Victoria Hutcheson: Oh no. This was, uh, something that I wanted to do because, uh, I became a Christian and God laid it on my conscious to clear my conscience. And, uh, I came to Mima and asked Mima would she help me and Mima helped me and I got a hold of Dan Stidham and then he got a hold of you all and this has nothing to do with you all. This has to do with me having a clear conscience.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. So you initiated these contacts?

Victoria Hutcheson: Yes I did.

Nancy Pemberton: And, uh, we haven't said anything?

Victoria Hutcheson: You've never asked me for anything. This is the first time I've ever seen you or talked to you.

Nancy Pemberton: And have I threatened you or anything?

Victoria Hutcheson: No.

Nancy Pemberton: Okay. All right. Even with that New York accent? [Laughter] Okay. Well good enough. I think that's it, all right? Thanks a lot.

[End of recorded material]